Volvo Penta no longer provides warranties on their engines

[ylop]

Their business, their prerogative to run it how they want. I suspect they will have considered the direct financial consequences- ie we will lose X in insurance revenue, the indirect ones, those customers will possibly choose not to use VP engines so we will lose Y in sales. And someone in marketing will have made the point you are making - that if we are seen to have ditched this it sends a message about confidence and so we miss a further Z in sales. The profit on X+Y+Z is insufficient to make it worth getting involved in. It seems unlikely this is truely about the IPT cost, but it may be about compliance or regulatory process hassle.

 

[Refueler]

Their business, their prerogative to run it how they want. I suspect they will have considered the direct financial consequences- ie we will lose X in insurance revenue, the indirect ones, those customers will possibly choose not to use VP engines so we will lose Y in sales. And someone in marketing will have made the point you are making - that if we are seen to have ditched this it sends a message about confidence and so we miss a further Z in sales. The profit on X+Y+Z is insufficient to make it worth getting involved in. It seems unlikely this is truely about the IPT cost, but it may be about compliance or regulatory process hassle.

I suspect it came down to whether VP could get a 3rd Party to provide the cover. Given costs and mark-ups - I would think that VP's price for cover would be higher than many 3rd partys could provide - and therefore many not taking up VP's cover ... making it an issue for VP to continue offering.

Just my weird way of looking at things like this.

 

[julians]

VP withdrew the warranty cover for all customers including recreational. The withdrawal was EU wide not just here in the UK.

It still states on their website below that the leisure warranty can be up to 5 years

Read About our Marine Engine Warranty | Volvo Penta UK & Ireland

It states

"

Up to 5 years of protection​

For the first 2 years, our warranty protection covers your complete engine package and for the following 3 years it covers all major components. Our warranty commitment is measured in years or total operation hours, whichever occurs first.

"

BUt this is for engines used in leisure boats, not commercial.

Maybe they havent got round to updating the website?

 

[benjenbav]

Let’s not get sidetracked by trying to re-write or interpret VP’s ambiguous terms and conditions.

VP withdrew the warranty cover for all customers including recreational. The withdrawal was EU wide not just here in the UK.

When discussing the matter with the head of VP and Ireland she specifically asked me where we used our boat (it was at this point that she told me my engines were capable of crossing oceans). I confirmed it was only in the UK but despite this she said that she was unable to get a warranty on their engines regardless of for recreational or commercial use.

I wonder what’s at the heart of VP’s change of policy on this.

 

[henryf]

Sorry - here we will move apart as your interpretation of clear Warranty Clause as posted in this thread shows you are bending the issue to suit your stance. Taking a sum from a guest in part for fuel is not 'revenue generation' - its "cost apportioning" ... similar to the act of Ride Share with cars ..
In your case - you have openly stated that you do generate income from the boat regardless of the short number of hours involved. You have a Qualified Skipper - who pays for him and where does that money come from ? I cannot believe you are a charity on this.

I agree that removal of the extended warranty is an issue not to be taken lightly. But I would suspect that the conversation with the VP person pushed them to answer on something they most likely have limited actual knowledge of why it was removed. If they had been given opportunity to refer to the relevant department in VP and get back to you later - I daresay their reply may have been different.

IPT as another says is based on the Premium Paid .. not on the claims. VP would not have any control of that as it has been shown their extended warranty was a 3rd party matter. It also does not make sense for VP to take issue over IPT - they would simply quote the Premium + IPT payable - same as any Broker would. They have chosen to not do so - they are not Brokers.
I have a strong suspicion that there is more to this removal of VP extended warranty and is not related to IPT or your wish to have it. I can well imagine that the person you spoke too really did not wish to get into discussion on this ....

My first action after being told VP would not provide such warranty - would have been to approach a 3d Party Broker to provide cover - probably cheaper as well !!

My conversations with Samantha Hindson took place over a number of months and she in turn had conversations with the larger VP family. I didn’t just doorstep her or catch her unawares. She was a very amenable person fully able to put points across but sadly not able to replicate the previously offered warranty cover either for recreational or commercial use.

Discussions over the wording of terms is an amusing distraction and I have views on whether our use is more or less of a risk to VP than that of an amateur recreational user but as a recreational user you no longer have access to a VP warranty that used to be available.

 

[henryf]

It still states on their website below that the leisure warranty can be up to 5 years

Read About our Marine Engine Warranty | Volvo Penta UK & Ireland

It states

"

Up to 5 years of protection​

For the first 2 years, our warranty protection covers your complete engine package and for the following 3 years it covers all major components. Our warranty commitment is measured in years or total operation hours, whichever occurs first.

"

BUt this is for engines used in leisure boats, not commercial.

Maybe they havent got round to updating the website?

For recreational users who took delivery of their boats in early 2023 there is no warranty available from VP to give 5 years cover. Given the initial difficulty in making contact with VP via their website my guess would be an out of date website.

 

[henryf]

I wonder what’s at the heart of VP’s change of policy on this.

I was told it related to issues surrounding insurance premium tax. VP knew about the issue when we took delivery of our boat but thought their legal / accounting / head office experts would be able to find a workaround solution but this was not the case so they stopped offering it suddenly without warning.

 

[Refueler]

My conversations with Samantha Hindson took place over a number of months and she in turn had conversations with the larger VP family. I didn’t just doorstep her or catch her unawares. She was a very amenable person fully able to put points across but sadly not able to replicate the previously offered warranty cover either for recreational or commercial use.

Discussions over the wording of terms is an amusing distraction and I have views on whether our use is more or less of a risk to VP than that of an amateur recreational user but as a recreational user you no longer have access to a VP warranty that used to be available.

Thank you for expanding on your time frame of conversations with VP - which was not evident in past posts.

But regarding the matter of Commercial vs Recreational - that is still a matter of your apparent mis-interpretation. Whether the use increases risk of warranty claims is not the point - the matter as laid down by many Dealers - not only boat engines is that Commercial Use is not in same box as recreational.

Take a pal of mine on Hayling Island .. he bought a Tesla - found it to be a heap of s*** ... he returned it to dealer based on the Warranty Clause of full refund within xx days ... He was refused refund because he bought the car via his company - which then classed the vehicle as commercial not private.
Its tough out there ...

 

[henryf]

It still states on their website below that the leisure warranty can be up to 5 years

Read About our Marine Engine Warranty | Volvo Penta UK & Ireland

It states

"

Up to 5 years of protection​

For the first 2 years, our warranty protection covers your complete engine package and for the following 3 years it covers all major components. Our warranty commitment is measured in years or total operation hours, whichever occurs first.

"

BUt this is for engines used in leisure boats, not commercial.

Maybe they havent got round to updating the website?

Having been on the website I suspect the additional 3 years refers to things like a cracked block, crankshaft and so on rather than the all encompassing warranty that came with handing over your £12k

 

[julians]

For recreational users who took delivery of their boats in early 2023 there is no warranty available from VP to give 5 years cover. Given the initial difficulty in making contact with VP via their website my guess would be an out of date website.

The website implies ,and if you read the leisure warranty T&C pdf - it confirms that the 5 years warranty cover consisting of 2 years warranty cover of the complete engine, and then 3 years of major components being covered, comes with the engine when you buy a new boat and you dont need to pay extra for years 3 to 5, I guess that may NOT have been the case when you bought yours, and maybe the 3 years cover had to be purchased separately back then?

But it does look like a new boat purchased today would come with 5 years cover as per the warranty page on the website. and itlooks like a boat bought in the last 5 years would benefit from the current warranty terms, ie you have complete warranty cover for years 1 & 2 , then the cover reduces to major components only for years 3 to 5 - but only if you fall within their definition of a leisure user.

The T&C list major components as the following:-

MAJOR COMPONENTSAs outlined, the Limited Warranty Period may be longer for certain components in the Product, herein referred to as “Major Components”. The following components, listed by category, constitute Major Components under this Warranty.Major Engine Components under this warranty are the following:• Cylinders block (casting and machining)• Cylinder head (casting and machining)• Crankshaft (forging and machining)• Timing gears and Camshaft (forging/casting and machining)• Flywheel housing (casting and machining)• Connecting rod (forging and machining)Major Components IPS/ DPI components• Gear housing • Bearing carrier/ box • Servo Unit Steering (SUS) including steering gearbox (n/a for DPI)• Drive shafts- (less U-joint) Major Components Volvo branded transmissions components• Shaft• Transmission housing casting


From reading the T&C of the commercial warranty - those terms (and durations of cover ) are more varied and specific to certain engine models & uses etc.

 

[henryf]

Thank you for expanding on your time frame of conversations with VP - which was not evident in past posts.

But regarding the matter of Commercial vs Recreational - that is still a matter of your apparent mis-interpretation. Whether the use increases risk of warranty claims is not the point - the matter as laid down by many Dealers - not only boat engines is that Commercial Use is not in same box as recreational.

Take a pal of mine on Hayling Island .. he bought a Tesla - found it to be a heap of s*** ... he returned it to dealer based on the Warranty Clause of full refund within xx days ... He was refused refund because he bought the car via his company - which then classed the vehicle as commercial not private.
Its tough out there ...

I would not buy a Tesla. I did buy a pair of big VP engines.

Once again, whilst I may disagree with what constitutes industrial usage / risk the withdrawal affects recreational users as well as commercial.

The conversation went along the lines of not being able to provide cover and in any case had they been able to we wouldn’t have been able to take it up because of our skippered chartering.

Samantha assumed chartering meant handing over the keys to an F55 and saw us as unusual in providing skippered charter.

 

[julians]

Having been on the website I suspect the additional 3 years refers to things like a cracked block, crankshaft and so on rather than the all encompassing warranty that came with handing over your £12k

yeah - the current warranty for years 3 to 5 is not as comprehensive cover as years 1 & 2. Ive updated my earlier post to include VP definition of major components.

 

[Refueler]

I was told it related to issues surrounding insurance premium tax. VP knew about the issue when we took delivery of our boat but thought their legal / accounting / head office experts would be able to find a workaround solution but this was not the case so they stopped offering it suddenly without warning.

Sorry - but that does not make sense. IPT is a tax levied by the provider who as you said yourself - is a 3rd party .. VP would only pass on the Premium total to be paid : Premium + IPT.
Where would VP have a problem with IPT ? How van VP Legal Dept fight IPT when its not their issue ? Its the 3rd Party Issuer who has the matter.

When I insured my 38 Cruiser / Racer ... the Broker apologised for misquoting premium .. he forgot to list the IPT. All sorted in one email .. he revised the invoice and all went on as it should.

Given that VP price for cover would likely be higher than alternative providers - I would think that is more likely reason for VP withdrawing the option. VP are definitely not going to admit their pricing hikes !!

There is another question .. if VP were passing on 3rd Party extended cover - would that create a situation that then they become a Broker ? Outside of their Business listing ? Maybe not an issue but then IPT comes along ?? Just a thought ... seeing as IPT has caught out a few in few recent years ??

 

[piratos]

yeah probably - the current warranty for years 3 to 5 is not as comprehensive cover as years 1 & 2

Commercial ships usually have a cover for engine damage as well (although heavy deductable) - maybe this could be of interest for somebody ?

 

[benjenbav]

I was told it related to issues surrounding insurance premium tax. VP knew about the issue when we took delivery of our boat but thought their legal / accounting / head office experts would be able to find a workaround solution but this was not the case so they stopped offering it suddenly without warning.

Thanks. As others have suggested, perhaps not so much an issue over the cost of IPT (which would be passed on to the customer) or the existence of IPT (which has been going for many years); perhaps the perceived issues ‘around IPT’ are that it may provide an alternative route to claim, if VP could be held to account for selling cover as well as for what they manufacture?

 

[ylop]

I would not buy a Tesla. I did buy a pair of big VP engines.

Once again, whilst I may disagree with what constitutes industrial usage / risk the withdrawal affects recreational users as well as commercial.

The conversation went along the lines of not being able to provide cover and in any case had they been able to we wouldn’t have been able to take it up because of our skippered chartering.

Samantha assumed chartering meant handing over the keys to an F55 and saw us as unusual in providing skippered charter.

So, we are to trust her understanding of the finer points of taxation and insurance regulation when she doesn’t understand how many of her customers use her products! Of course in fairness to Samantha she might understand all this perfectly and it’s the customer who is getting confused. Equally she may not be being 100% straight with you (she’s VP sales - she didn’t get there without telling a fib or too!). So “IPT” probably gets rid of 99% of people whereas “loss making” or “paperwork too hard” or “long term worry about getting sued” would be less customer friendly!

It might be useful to confirm though if your understanding of what ordinary leisure customers can get now is what Julians is saying - an extensive warranty for 2 years and a limited warranty for 5 years? (In which case you were presumably paying to upgrade the limited warranty to an extensive one?) OR were you paying £12K for the limited extra?

 

[henryf]

So, we are to trust her understanding of the finer points of taxation and insurance regulation when she doesn’t understand how many of her customers use her products! Of course in fairness to Samantha she might understand all this perfectly and it’s the customer who is getting confused. Equally she may not be being 100% straight with you (she’s VP sales - she didn’t get there without telling a fib or too!). So “IPT” probably gets rid of 99% of people whereas “loss making” or “paperwork too hard” or “long term worry about getting sued” would be less customer friendly!

It might be useful to confirm though if your understanding of what ordinary leisure customers can get now is what Julians is saying - an extensive warranty for 2 years and a limited warranty for 5 years? (In which case you were presumably paying to upgrade the limited warranty to an extensive one?) OR were you paying £12K for the limited extra?

I can only report what I have been told and that related to IPT. I was actually told it related to IPT being charged when the VP agents did work and claimed off VP themselves which as I said at the time sounds rather far fetched. The automotive world uses warranties and charges IPT - we were one of the reasons it was introduced because dealers were loading up the warranty cost to avoid paying VAT on profit (margin scheme). At no point does IPT get involved when carrying out repair work.

I'm sure Samantha had dialogues with the relevant experts in between our communications.

The cover for casting faults and so on has always been there. I think Volvo changed their foundry a while ago and so have to offer assurance in these matters. You would also struggle to defend a claim brought against you within the first 5 years for this type of fault. The £12k we were quoted (which listed Vat rather than IPT but I think that was a typo as both are 20%) essentially extended the initial 2 year warranty and included far more than castings & machining.

 

[MapisM]

@MapisM Can I ask you to please explain why you prefer the other brands over Volvo Penta engines?
VolvoPaul already listed several recent issues with VP, but I'm curious to understand your perspective and what led you to this preference.

You're asking as if anyone in his right mind would need to know more that what VolvoPaul already said...

Anyhow, since you asked, and without pretending to bring to the table anything as accurate as he can, based on a specific technical involvement, here's my 2c.

First, I'll start saying that I actually owned 2 KAD+DP outdrives powered boats (KAD 42 and 43, the latter bought brand new), many years ago.
And back then, I had no issues whatsoever with those powerplants.
With the noticeable exception of the DP aluminum props, which were outstanding in terms of corrosion protection - lack of, that is.
In fact, their black paint started peeling off even before the end of the very first season of use, and once it did, the props only went from bad to worse.
Now, after hearing about the silly prices VP asked for those pieces of junk, a boating friend of mine who happened to know very well the owner of an Italian props manufacturing company offered me to call him and ask if he could supply some compatible props at a more sensible price.
And we found that his company was actually the OEM producer of those props for VP.
So, he could have actually supplied the real things, and at a fraction of the price.
He could, if it weren't that after he already did that in the past for a few local boating friends, he was threatened by VP to terminate their manufacturing agreement.
And to add insult to injury, when asked why the paint was so bad, he explained that they were well aware of it, and offered VP several different and much more durable finishing treatments, but VP specifically asked them to keep producing that sh!t, with the obvious aim to keep selling a lot of them, and at extortionate prices...
That alone was enough for me to decide that there was going to be no room for green engines in my future boats - which is what actually happened.

Then again, over the years I still came across VP powerplants in other ways, both through feedbacks from mechanics I trust (very much along the lines of what VolvoPaul already said), and also through boating mates with VP powered boats.
And to put it mildly, also these indirect experiences ranged from awfully disappointing at worst, to barely acceptable at best.
The last boat I was somewhat involved with, powered by D6 mated to IPS, gets my personal award as the worst powerplant I ever came across in more than 3 decades of boating, bar no others.
Not because it doesn't perform well - the friend of mine who owns the boat is actually happy about her (when she's working!), and her maneuverability. But the number of different ECUs he had to replace, as well as their cost, was beyond a joke.
And a few years ago, he had half a summer wrecked by the discovery of some emulsified oil in the IPS drive, which required a boat lift to fix it, and weeks waiting for the parts.
All of this in a boat religiously maintained, always followed by an official VP dealer, and with an owner who never said no to anything he was recommended to do.

Bottom line, aside from some VP warhorses that I don't rate "by design" (so to speak), like the gearbox permanently immersed in salt water that they call IPS, and some electronic gizmos like the joystick, which has the habit to fail precisely in the worst possible moments - and even when it works, is more effective at wearing out gears than anything else, it's actually the company attitude that I dislike the most.
I mean, after being a technical, engineering-driven company many years ago, they steered towards marketing and bean counting, with the most noticeable result of offering products whose overall cost incidence for any given boat can be extremely attractive for boatbuilders, at the expense of end-users who will eventually pay the bills.

All that said, out of curiosity, have you got a VP powered boat?
And if yes, which engine/transmission?
It's not like everything they make is junk, you know...

 

[Portofino]

What’s ironic and galling here is Porsche ( Henry’s bread and butter day Job ) do a 15 yr 120000 mile warranty,
So I can see why he is pissed about Volvos none warranty past 2 yrs .
Even if the said car has missed a few dealer services ie at yr 3 dropped it out of the new warranty .If it’s presented at a Porsche dealer for a 111 point check passes ( parts rectified to Porsche std ) they will offer a warranty.
It’s a 3 p insurance jobbie but all the same 15 yrs 120K miles ,Talking £800 to £1400 Pa depending on modal .
Ferrari do a 7 yr service package built into the new price and a similar iirc 9 yr power warranty as Porkers .I mean 9 yrs guys on the engines / gearbox.

The numbers are different VAG flogs 100 or is it 200K new pieces of pork so in play are a million cars + warranted .
A certain % have claims inc new engines / gearboxes - major stuff as well and the odd wheel bearing .You do the maths ,
Sure it’s costed in the sticker price and ongoing punter yearly contributions .

But they must back there product and owners , some owners are not very mechanical sympathetic.
The net result is market confidence which helps sell the products.

Begs the Q not withstanding Henry’s point ( if I understood him ) “I am a commercial skipper and know what iam doing running theses engines interns of T + P s + stern gear fouling + daily checks etc ) “ ….

That Volvo don’t want to carry the risk or a 3 P won’t going Fwds apart from the bear minimum 2 yrs ? = why ?

For the reasons stated further up ^ .

 

[madabouttheboat]

Cannot recall seeing something with green paint on it lurking within any "proper" commercial craft have ever been on, White and Yellow but never Green ?

I can assure you that there are plenty of green engines in 'proper' commercial vessels. Many windfarm and pilot boats have VP engines as do many 'authority' boats such as police and RNLI.

Volvo Penta are not just marine either. The Penta division also supply industrial engines, and many of these are the same as the Penta marine units. In industrial applications they can clock up 10s of thousands of hours.

Im not saying VP are good or bad, better or worse, just adding some facts to the debate.