New Benjenbav - spot the difference

[westernman]

Mostly because there isn't much worse than a POGO for IRC racing. The most recent IRC rating I can find is 1.145. Which means IRC thinks it's significantly faster than a J111, and only a little slower than an IC37....

No doubt it could be an absolute weapon on a reaching course in 20+ knot course, but for anything involving any upwind, it's not going to be competitive at that number....

I would expect the first to be faster around a ww/lw course whilst rating more like 1.100, in the same ballpark as the 111 maybe a little lower.

In addition the cockpit of the First is much better laid out for fully crewed racing. However, if I was looking for a fast cruiser to be sailed by a couple or a family, then the POGO would be ahead of the first, at least without considering price and lead time....

Thanks for the detail. Makes sense now.

 

[Laser310]

However, if I was looking for a fast cruiser to be sailed by a couple or a family, then the POGO would be ahead of the first

so.., the pogo is more or less the category of boat that IRC was developed for; a fast cruising boat...

it's the rating rule that's the problem, not the boat

 

[Lightwave395]

I bought a much older iteration of this kind of boat - a Beneteau First Class Europe back in 1990.
It was quite spacious and comfortable for cruising (except for the running backstays perhaps) and maybe more pogo-like in that it was a flying machine offwind. It also had a very high rating compared to other 36 footers of the time and it only went well upwind in any kind of breeze if you had a friendly local rugby team to inhabit the rail.
We did well in a few offshore races when the wind was favourable and likewise won the Beneteau Cup in 1992, we also got close to 20 knots speed a couple of times which was somewhat terrifying with a tall mast with a not much bigger section than a dinghy.
I've seen a couple still around of late but they seem to have been converted to swept back spreaders and had the checks removed. The guy I sold the boat to back in '93 dismissed any issue with runners and broke the mast within 2 months.

 

[flaming]

so.., the pogo is more or less the category of boat that IRC was developed for; a fast cruising boat...

it's the rating rule that's the problem, not the boat

Not really....

The issue with the Pogo is that its performance is very skewed towards reaching and downwind sailing. But compared to more conventional cruiser racers of a similar size it is no faster, or possibly slower, upwind.

In a point to point race such as you get with JOG etc, then the Pogo could either win by hours if it spends the whole time on the plane, or lose by hours if it's a long beat. But the design brief for the Pogo is offwind sailing. Upwind sailing is very much secondary.

Boats such as the J111 and the JPKs really started pointing the way towards a more rounded performance whilst still being capable of planing off the wind. Forget the IRC ratings and look at the actual performance profiles. The Pogo is significantly slower upwind, so has a job to do to make up the time if any significant portion of the race is upwind. If you're deciding the performance profile of a boat to race in "normal" offshore races (i.e RORC series, fastnet etc) or inshore, then you really need something that has better performance upwind. What IRC has never done is reward poor design choices that put a boat in the corner of the performance envelope.

So for a race across the Atlantic in the trades, the Pogo might be a good option. (In fact historically the Pogo 30 did pretty well in the Transquadra) But when you're talking about rounded performance, capable of being competitive across the wind range and upwind and down, the Pogo is not a good design compromise.

But that's not really surprising, as the Pogo has made absolutely no concessions to racing, all of its design choices are about fast cruising off the wind and ease of handling.

 

[dslittle]

Trouble is, being a French boat few of them will ever go near the Solent!

Why would they?

The sailing on the French Coast is better, cheaper, less crowded and has plenty of lovely food and wine. The French sailors/families also sail for the fun of it and don’t really care about what ‘other sailors’ think about their style/ability/knowledge/yachts…

 

[Roberto]

Why would they?

OT
During these months of the year a lot of people are planning their summer sailing trips to the UK or beyond; this year there is the unexpected problem of passports: for reasons unknown to me, during these past few weeks getting a French passport has very long delays (months), all those not already holding a passport are realizing that they have to change all their plans with regards to UK ports.

 

[Laser310]

Not really....

The issue with the Pogo is that its performance is very skewed towards reaching and downwind sailing. But compared to more conventional cruiser racers of a similar size it is no faster, or possibly slower, upwind.

I basically agree.

The problem is that single-number ratings - like IRC - can't deal well with courses that have non-standard TWA's, or with boats that have performance characteristics that vary a lot over a range of wind speeds - planing boats, for example.

In principle, a rule like ORC could be better - when it is scored using PCS.., bur ORC regattas or even distance races rarely use PCS

I would also argue that we should remember that IRC set out to rate what were basically cruising boats.., but are now kind of stuck in a no-man's land between cruising and racing

most cruising boats are not really as optimized for upwind as a good IRC boat needs to be - nor should they be, as the compromises for cruising are pretty great.

I'm a racing sailor, currently shopping for a cruising boat - i want a boat that can sail upwind reasonably well.., but it doesn't have to have its target upwind angle be say 36-38deg..., 40 is fine - i can loose some draft, and probably have a boat that performs better off the wind, where I will (if i am doing it right... ) spend most of my time

 

[flaming]

https://www.facebook.com/tit.plevnik/posts/10227986637228919

Back to the First 36. Hull 2 has been blasting around by the look of it... Doesn't planing at speeds in the teens look easy?

 

[dunedin]

https://www.facebook.com/tit.plevnik/posts/10227986637228919

Back to the First 36. Hull 2 has been blasting around by the look of it... Doesn't planing at speeds in the teens look easy?

Does look like she does what she was designed for very well. And twin rudders do help with safe and steady sailing at speed.

Of course others will be along shortly to explain how their 50 year old, long keel, wheelhouse boat can go much faster and never once broached, and yet can sail in 30 knots without needing a reef …………..

 

[doug748]

Does look like she does what she was designed for very well. And twin rudders do help with safe and steady sailing at speed.

Of course others will be along shortly to explain how their 50 year old, long keel, wheelhouse boat can go much faster and never once broached, and yet can sail in 30 knots without needing a reef …………..

It's certainly got the heads of a 50 year old, long keel, wheelhouse boat. Complete with sliding washbasin about 3 inches deep, it might be useful for chitting potatoes.

They have tried to put too much accommodation in there, I forecast a single aft cabin version in the near future. I will keep my quarter of a million close to my chest till it is sorted.

.

 

[dunedin]

It's certainly got the heads of a 50 year old, long keel, wheelhouse boat. Complete with sliding washbasin about 3 inches deep, it might be useful for chitting potatoes.

They have tried to put too much accommodation in there, I forecast a single aft cabin version in the near future. I will keep my quarter of a million close to my chest till it is sorted.
.

Twin aft cabins are ideal for a performance boat - very light weight and space for larger race crew to camp during an event (if budget doesn’t rise to a crew house - all overnight gear of course left on the dock)

 

[mrming]

https://www.facebook.com/tit.plevnik/posts/10227986637228919

Back to the First 36. Hull 2 has been blasting around by the look of it... Doesn't planing at speeds in the teens look easy?

Looks great! I’m sure it’s been mentioned already in the thread, but this boat is a result of Beneteau’s partnership with Seascape (see also First 24, First 27).

• Am pretty sure the founder of Seascape hinted that the partnership may not be continuing after this boat.
• Surely it will pay a heavy penalty on IRC for all this planing fun and that will probably render it uncompetitive for racing apart from the occasional downwind point to point affair.
• I think they envisage selling it in small numbers. There is a market for this kind of boat but it’s tiny (see Pogo).
• The IRC boats roughly this shape (Sun Fast 3300 et al) are heavier, and are only super competitive in distance racing. They still get beaten up by narrower, even heavier and often older designs on IRC around the cans.
• In summary, I love it, but unless the fast cruising niche grows or racing rules evolve then this kind of boat is never going to sell in big numbers.

 

[flaming]

Looks great! I’m sure it’s been mentioned already in the thread, but this boat is a result of Beneteau’s partnership with Seascape (see also First 24, First 27).

• Am pretty sure the founder of Seascape hinted that the partnership may not be continuing after this boat.
• Surely it will pay a heavy penalty on IRC for all this planing fun and that will probably render it uncompetitive for racing apart from the occasional downwind point to point affair.
• I think they envisage selling it in small numbers. There is a market for this kind of boat but it’s tiny (see Pogo).
• The IRC boats roughly this shape (Sun Fast 3300 et al) are heavier, and are only super competitive in distance racing. They still get beaten up by narrower, even heavier and often older designs on IRC around the cans.
• In summary, I love it, but unless the fast cruising niche grows or racing rules evolve then this kind of boat is never going to sell in big numbers.

Hadn't heard that the seascape Beneteau partnership was going... Didn't B buy them?

Specs wise it's pretty similar to a J111, which aren't terrible IRC boats. First is half a tonne or so heavier but sets more sail and has a more powerful hull shape. My expectation is a rating in the 1.080 region, which I think it would probably sail to in the light (but not the super light when it will be too draggy) and the heavy, but maybe suffer a bit in the 12-16 band. For reference the archetypal IRC ww/lw machine, the Corby 36, is only a couple of hundred kilos heavier than the first and currently rates 1.070. The first will probably be a little slower upwind than the pencil thin Corby in the light, match it uphill in the heavy, and leave it for dead downwind in anything over 10 knots. For JOG racing or similar there's no question which boat I'd prefer....

I'm not sure about the small numbers.... I think they hope this is the next 36.7, which sold in enormous numbers (everywhere except the UK)

As someone driving a JPK, not sure I agree with the idea that boats of broadly this type aren't competitive.... I've not really seen anyone give a serious inshore campaign a go in a 3300. When they have come out they've been fairly competitive, except in the very light, mostly handicapped by their cockpit setups making fully crewed racing tricky. Which is not an issue that the 36 has.

 

[mrming]

Hadn't heard that the seascape Beneteau partnership was going... Didn't B buy them?

Specs wise it's pretty similar to a J111, which aren't terrible IRC boats. First is half a tonne or so heavier but sets more sail and has a more powerful hull shape. My expectation is a rating in the 1.080 region, which I think it would probably sail to in the light (but not the super light when it will be too draggy) and the heavy, but maybe suffer a bit in the 12-16 band. For reference the archetypal IRC ww/lw machine, the Corby 36, is only a couple of hundred kilos heavier than the first and currently rates 1.070. The first will probably be a little slower upwind than the pencil thin Corby in the light, match it uphill in the heavy, and leave it for dead downwind in anything over 10 knots. For JOG racing or similar there's no question which boat I'd prefer....

I'm not sure about the small numbers.... I think they hope this is the next 36.7, which sold in enormous numbers (everywhere except the UK)

As someone driving a JPK, not sure I agree with the idea that boats of broadly this type aren't competitive.... I've not really seen anyone give a serious inshore campaign a go in a 3300. When they have come out they've been fairly competitive, except in the very light, mostly handicapped by their cockpit setups making fully crewed racing tricky. Which is not an issue that the 36 has.

Info from the founder here: New Beneteau First 36

I do hope you’re right re: the rating btw. ?

 

[Frogmogman]

Thank

Info from the founder here: New Beneteau First 36

I do hope you’re right re: the rating btw. ?

Thanks for the link. Interesting.

 

[flaming]

Have to say, I've gone from "looks ok, but not all that interested" to "I really want a ride..." Starting to hope that they sell a few so I can pick one up second hand in a few years as a family cruiser that isn't going to bore me to tears.

 

[flaming]

Yachting World review. Lot of really neat touches, really like the "modular" aft cabins in particular.

 

[mrming]

Looks great! One question I have is around the mainsheet set up. If you look in the video at 20:40 the sheet comes up through the deck and is lead to a winch from outboard. For inshore racing, it looks like it might be hard to dump it cleanly without facing away from the sail. Do I have that wrong? Anyone used a system like this? I’ve been trimming main for years but have never used a winch, instead relying on plenty of purchases and a fine tune.

 

[flaming]

Looks great! One question I have is around the mainsheet set up. If you look in the video at 20:40 the sheet comes up through the deck and is lead to a winch from outboard. For inshore racing, it looks like it might be hard to dump it cleanly without facing away from the sail. Do I have that wrong? Anyone used a system like this? I’ve been trimming main for years but have never used a winch, instead relying on plenty of purchases and a fine tune.

You're always going to be dumping from the winch, so providing you have a clear lead from your hand to winch then you'll be fine.

In practice I've found with this sort of setup when in upwind mode the sheet is mostly cleated and you're playing the traveller.

 

[flaming]

Giddy up! Beneteau First 36

Typically gushing review...
One thing that stuck out though, they've sold 125 boats so far.