geem
Well-known member
See post 129.
New Benjenbav - spot the difference
- Thread starter awol
- Start date
flaming
Well-known member
Post 129 is talking about racing and modern boats being seaworthy in tough races.
It has nothing to do with living on the hook in the tropics.
geem
Well-known member
Deleted. Got bored
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
I didn't forget anything ... and I was trying to be diplomaticYou forget that there are 25 countries in the Windward and Leeward islands alone. You can pick one with marinas. Martinique is the French Cwribbean capital of sailing. Charter boat hell. Hundreds of charter boats. Their peak season is in the summer. Completely opposite or every other island. The French will charter in hurricane season whilst every other island has a low season. There are over 3000 boats there, but its like a storage area. There are lots of liveaboard French tied in to the mangroves that live and work on the island.
If you want an opposite, go to Dominica. No marinas. All at anchor. Stunning island, only accessible without a marina.
Barbuda. No marinas. Aruba, Estancia, no marinas. All of the Grenadines, no marina. There are 26,000 boats spread across these islands and may be 3000 marina berths? That's a guess but really not many. It's not driven by money.
The vast majority of people are here on their own boats. Although charter boats are numerous, they are no where near the majority so most people are not holidaying here, unless you describe several months as a holiday. Most people would describe themselves as liveaboards even if its just for the winter season. The marinas and boat yards fill up for the summer as many go home for hurricane season.
I am not going to perpetuate the old versus new argument, I have done that to death. Play nicely
... liveaboards are a minority of boat users. Fact. The majority of boat use is charter and personal leisure, just look up the statistics, it's true globally. You can find isolated anchorages the world over, the Caribbean is nothing special in that respect. Marinas are popular - another fact, that's why we keep building more of them, and shock-horror ... there aren't marinas on some islands - we know all this - there are loads of islands in Scotland without marinas, as well as Croatia and Greece and at the end of the day, liveaboards are just gypsies with deeper pockets than your average vagrant who tend to avoid marinas until their boats break, or until the weather makes life aboard miserable. I've met plenty on my travels - one even had the ashes of his departed wife in an urn in the saloon - I was going to make a joke about his wood burner but decided against it.Please don't take this personally, but while the First 36 isn't a center-cockpit tank with a skeg-hung rudder, an encapsulated keel, and whatever else you deem essential for a sailing boat, a boat is not your identity. It might be your home, and you may well be very attached to it, but it's just a boat like thousands of others with pros and cons that have a different weight for different people. This thread was about modern production boats, which find their way into private ownership and charter fleets all over the world for very good reasons. They are very good at what they do, and they satisfy the current generation of sailors.
There have been some really interesting changes in the last few years, some carried over from some of the most demanding yacht racing in the world. Modern designs are built with better quality control than in the past - they are more accurately engineered, and more consistently built with better materials. The change to wider transoms and chined hulls allow spacious cockpits, easy dinghy and water access, more form stability, more spacious accommodation, and faster passage times - what's not to like? In the 80s/90s a 36 ft family friendly boat capable of double-digit performance was unheard of, and before that, designs were based on how to make stronger wooden hulls - the constraints of which are long since irrelevant due to modern materials.
Let's celebrate the achievements of the 21st century. The First 36 is a fantastic boat, created by some of the best designers around today. Well done Beneteau!! ... I do hope they build a slightly larger version and I'm waiting to see the consternation of older generations when foils eventually make an appearance on cruising boats. Now that will be fun - can't wait for the threads on how foils are the work of the devil
Mark-1
Well-known member
I'd need to check my notes but Nic 55 is the only proper old fashioned long keel boat over 40 feet that springs to mind, and that probably had plenty of room but it wasn't really a boat a couple could sail so that room would need to be shared by more people. And 1/3 of the boat was sail locker which was amazing but all using up accomodation space which you'd welcome if can't just hop off the boat onto a pontoon.
Anything else older that I've sailed in that 40 foot length range have been old but similar in volume to a modern boat - Westerly, Najad, Rassey so not really significantly different in terms of utility outside a marina.
However, I've sailed plenty of 'proper' older designs just over 30 feet up to a Rustler 36 and I can't imagine the extra 10 feet would make them massively better outside a marina. They're cramped with no comfortable external lounging space and make me want to step off to stretch my legs. Boats that would certainly have me heading to a marina.
Not sure it really matters - you're saying modern boats are optimized for marinas and I'm saying they're spacious, roomey and pretty much ideal for the times outside a marina when space, water and storage really count. If I was going to be spending a week on a boat knowing I was going be in remote anchorages (which used to be my typical usage before kids) I'd pick a Bav 32 over a Contessa 32 every time.
TLDR; Big roomy boat: Nice at Anchor, crap upwind. Cramped boat: Crap at anchor, effective upwind.
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Frogmogman
Well-known member
I’ve sailed an S&S Swan 43 quite a lot. Very elegant, sails beautifully, but not set up for short handed sailing, poky and cave-like down below. A bit like a bigger Contessa 32. I’d struggle to call the accommodation comfortable.
doug748
Well-known member
Just so. Fundamentally, it's an argument about priorities.
There is no best boat, without reference to that.
.
There is no best boat, without reference to that.
.
Stemar
Well-known member
Big +1
For us, the best boat for years was a Snapdragon 24. No heating, no fridge and definitely not a boat for guests who wanted a shower twice a day, but she was what we could afford and she gave us 18 years of great and almost affordable fun. Would we have changed after a lottery win? Of course, our priorities would have changed with all those new "friends" wanting their showers. Hmm, maybe we should keep the Snappy
awol
Well-known member
I started this thread over 2 years ago with an artist's rendition of a, then, new Beneteau which, to me, looked similar to other Benjanbavs with nothing but puff to describe it. How or why you lot turned this into a AWB v MAB thread without passing through the obvious lack of anchoring provision, cleats, etc. I dinnae ken. I am still happy with my CO32!
flaming
Well-known member
I don't think it ever looked all that similar, and the intention - a boat capable of planing speeds with a useable interior, is a significant departure from the general cruising offerings of the AWB manufacturers.
Stemar
Well-known member
And ultimately, that's all that matters. Apart from having the right anchor, of course
awol
Well-known member
In 2021 it was white, had a couple of steering wheels, a fat arse and paragraphs of puff with trendy, meaningless words. The reality eventually appeared and seems to have fulfilled the racer/cruiser moniker.
flaming
Well-known member
It also had specs for design weight and S/A that gave a clue... Not knocking your OP. It was just amusing to watch the usual suspects pile in with their expert views on how unsuitable this boat would be for their type of sailing.
westernman
Well-known member
Sailfree
Well-known member
Just discovered this thread which is a duplicate of many threads over the years which become my ideal boat v AWB.
One aspect that never fully appreciated wrt production AWB's is how they have bought the cost of boats down with their designs and production methods to bring boat ownership to be within the reach of many more people.
Yes many of these boats might not be the best blue water cruisers or liveaboards but they have given many the pleasure of boat ownership.
When I first joined this forum there was a great thread going by "Stingo" who intended sailing across the Atlantic with an AWB. Many said boat would not be suitable and he was foolhardy others suggested sensible modifications and additions.
Stingo and his AWB did it.
We have crossed the Bay of Biscay 3 times now in our AWB but would always take note of weather forecasts.
I'm currently berthed in Nazare, Portugal next to a lovely Southerly. The Southerly is a boat we aspired to once owning but at twice the cost of our AWB a cost too far. The southerly owner though remarks there are always maintenance items needed and being almost hand built no 2 boats are identical. Still a nice boat IMHO.
EDIT - to suit Fredrussell
One aspect that never fully appreciated wrt production AWB's is how they have bought the cost of boats down with their designs and production methods to bring boat ownership to be within the reach of many more people.
Yes many of these boats might not be the best blue water cruisers or liveaboards but they have given many the pleasure of boat ownership.
When I first joined this forum there was a great thread going by "Stingo" who intended sailing across the Atlantic with an AWB. Many said boat would not be suitable and he was foolhardy others suggested sensible modifications and additions.
Stingo and his AWB did it.
We have crossed the Bay of Biscay 3 times now in our AWB but would always take note of weather forecasts.
I'm currently berthed in Nazare, Portugal next to a lovely Southerly. The Southerly is a boat we aspired to once owning but at twice the cost of our AWB a cost too far. The southerly owner though remarks there are always maintenance items needed and being almost hand built no 2 boats are identical. Still a nice boat IMHO.
EDIT - to suit Fredrussell
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fredrussell
Well-known member
Basic ‘on the water’ price of the smallest (I think) Beneteau Oceanis (30.1) is £155k in the uk. I think your definition of ‘within the reach of many people’ differs to mine!
Tranona
Well-known member
While prices have shot up in the last few years, the comment was really valid 20 years ago. I would never have dreamt that I could ever afford a new boat in my early sailing days but in 2001 I bought a new Bavaria 37 for which the full retail price was around £80k, about 40% less than a similar size UK built boat was 10 years earlier when I first started moving from the dreaming to the buying stage. To put in perspective it was about the same price as the asking prices for 15 year old boats like Moody 376 which was also on the short list. 15 years later I exchanged that boat, adding another £57k or so for a new 33 that had a retail price of just over £100k. Retail for the current version of that boat to a similar spec is now around £170k.
In the early 2000s boats like the Bavaria 34 were less than £70k on the water, waiting lists were typically 6-12 months and literally hundreds of similar boats from the 3 then major builders were sold each year. In many ways it was like the 70s and early 80s when GRP took over from wood leading to a massive drop in prices and a boom in sales. A Centaur was half the price of a wooden Twister (I know not direct competitors but comparable in volume) and met the needs of the new buyers much more closely, as did an AWB compared with the later offerings from the small scale UK builders.
Difficult to see where another step change such as those 2 will take place. Just as in cars as there is no new technology, nor macro economic environment on the horizon that would allow it. Rather the opposite, real costs and prices will only rise as we take on all the costs of net zero, adjusting to the changing geo-political order and changing social priorities. Fortunate for boaters that there is a solid pool of decent used boats in the UK market that will be viable for the next few years. However the lack of new boats coming in will only mean that the overall pool will decline and prices will rise. A rather gloomy prospect for those in the earlier stages of their boating career who won't be able to look forward to the sort of opportunities that Sailfree and myself had.
pironiero
New member
Hi, can you please DM me or write to my email(pironiero@gmail.com)? My account is too fresh to be granted starting direct messing first.
I'm currently preparing to buying this boat and would love to hear any information and advice about first class europe.
Stemar
Well-known member
Substitute any make of boat for Southerly.
I'm unlikely ever to own a new boat, but ISTM that you buy new, and there's a diminishing curve of jobs to get her the way you like her. As she gets to be a year or two old, there's rising curve of maintenance jobs. The shortest - never zero - to-do list is where those curves cross.