Cheap Asian sail lofts

[ylop]

a) there isn't enough volume

That's the bit that surprises me. My local sailmaker doesn't make their own sails - they are agents for Hyde. Obviously they make some profit on the sails they sell for hyde, but given they go and measure them, and not every quote will result in a sale - I'm not sure they'll be making most of their money there, but they seem to have a busy and healthy sail repair, canvas work etc business.

b) it tends to be seasonal work. People don't tend to send their sails off for valeting in the sailing season

I get that - and of course lots of businesses have seasonal work, which does make life harder for planning and getting/managing staff. On the otherhand when you damage a sail in season you'd "happily" pay a premium to get it fixed quickly. I imagine that not many people order new sails in the middle of summer either?

 

[Sea Change]

Have you tried North in Antigua? A friend was happy with a set they got there. Consider DP-DYS material. I have it and am satisfied. Caribbean use.

My quote from North was well over double the quotes I am currently considering, and three times the cheapest quote. Lead time was 3-4 times longer. I'm sure they're good, but...

 

[Seven Spades]

You can order your sales from Sanders and they will ship them. Wouldn't you rather deal with someone who is a native English speaker?

 

[Tranona]

You can order your sales from Sanders and they will ship them. Wouldn't you rather deal with someone who is a native English speaker?

I think you will find all the lofts in the Far East are fronted by native English (or Australian) people. That has been my experience when getting quotes from them

 

[Tranona]

That's the bit that surprises me. My local sailmaker doesn't make their own sails - they are agents for Hyde. Obviously they make some profit on the sails they sell for hyde, but given they go and measure them, and not every quote will result in a sale - I'm not sure they'll be making most of their money there, but they seem to have a busy and healthy sail repair, canvas work etc business.

I get that - and of course lots of businesses have seasonal work, which does make life harder for planning and getting/managing staff. On the otherhand when you damage a sail in season you'd "happily" pay a premium to get it fixed quickly. I imagine that not many people order new sails in the middle of summer either?

I agree. In Poole we have 5 local sailmakers. 3 make sails on site as well as a wide range of other related work and repairs. One does make some sails but mostly does repairs, canvas work and upholstery and the last just repairs and canvas work. All have been in business for a very long time.

 

[Puffin10032]

That's the bit that surprises me. My local sailmaker doesn't make their own sails - they are agents for Hyde. Obviously they make some profit on the sails they sell for hyde, but given they go and measure them, and not every quote will result in a sale - I'm not sure they'll be making most of their money there, but they seem to have a busy and healthy sail repair, canvas work etc business.

I get that - and of course lots of businesses have seasonal work, which does make life harder for planning and getting/managing staff. On the otherhand when you damage a sail in season you'd "happily" pay a premium to get it fixed quickly. I imagine that not many people order new sails in the middle of summer either?

I'm not sure that selling other people's sails makes one a sailmaker any more that running a car dealership makes one a car manufacturer. But semantics, aside your local business doesn't survive purely on sail repairs, which was my point. Spring was traditionally peak time for new sail orders and I imagine still is for cruising sails. Orders for racing sails can be a be more spread out as some may decide to have their new sails prior to some major competition rather that for the start of the season.

 

[Sea Change]

You can order your sales from Sanders and they will ship them. Wouldn't you rather deal with someone who is a native English speaker?

Everybody I've dealt with appears to be a native English speaker. The contact address for Rolly Tasker is in Gamble.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Why not go full British
Home - Jeckells The Sailmakers.
Your country needs you

 

[chris-s]

How much cheaper are the Asian lofts against local (UK) sailmaker - and should we buy new sails from the local sailmaker to keep them in business so they are still there when we need repairs?

We had several quotes for a new radial genoa earlier this year in something other than Dacron and rolly tasker were 2k vs 3k for uk lofts.

 

[Sea Change]

Why not go full British
Home - Jeckells The Sailmakers.
Your country needs you

Well I'm not in the UK...

 

[ylop]

I'm not sure that selling other people's sails makes one a sailmaker any more that running a car dealership makes one a car manufacturer.

I’m sure if you really wanted they can make you a sail. They have all the equipment and materials and seem to have the knowledge to advise on what is required.

But semantics, aside your local business doesn't survive purely on sail repairs, which was my point.

Yeah but my point was, without seeing their accounts, I suspect they could. I think they have about half a dozen staff - only one is involved in measuring and selling new sails and even that doesn’t seem to be his full time job.

It might seem I’m arguing the point needlessly here but I suspect in the not-too-distant future many sail lofts will be replaced with off shore manufacture, but their will always be a need for local, fast turnaround repair work and winter TLC.

 

[Puffin10032]

It might seem I’m arguing the point needlessly here

Indeed you seem to be. You took a business which proved my point and used that to somehow suggest that I was wrong.

 

[Frank Holden]

In my case, the local Caribbean lofts don't manufacture anyway- the nearest would be Doyle's in Barbados.
I did get a quote from Crusader for a UK manufactured sail, and it wasn't completely ridiculous, but from memory something like 50% higher cost.
The last time I bought sails I was in the UK and I used Quay, because they had a deal with the boat's owners' association, and Kemp, because I was also getting a new boom and they were next door to Z Spars. I'm generally in favour of buying local when it makes sense.

I bought a mainsail from Doyles in Barbados in 2007, airfreighted out to Chile. Very happy with it.
I don't recall the price but very happy with the quality.
Next main was made by Doyles in Melbourne, Australia in 2019, shrink wrapped and brought out to Chile as checked baggage.
Other checked baggage over the years has included but has not been limited to a 25kg Rocna, an 8' Achilles dinghy and a complete set of standing rigging - that took two trips.

 

[Nina Lucia]

Go for the best cloth you can afford as your sails will then last longer.

What will be the best cloth?

Every sail maker recommend his one, and said wouldn't really go for other one, but they couldn't really point difference.
Such a different price range, they are all 4 full battens, three reefs, logo and sail number, sail bag, triple stitched, tell tails, etc.


We have this options for main sail, which one shall we go for and why?

1. 9.45oz Challenge Newport All Purpose Dacron- Cross Cut
2. 9.86oz Challenge Fastnet - Cross Cut
3. 9.38oz Challenge Atlantic- Cross Cut
4. 9oz Cross Cut Dacron
5. 8.00oz High-Tenacity Polyester Yarn ( Dacron) Offshore Bluewater Cruising - Radial Cut Fully Batten
6. 8.00oz High-Tenacity Polyester Yarn ( Dacron) Offshore Bluewater Cruising - Cross Cut Fully Batten
7. Cruise Performance 8.55 Polyant Dacron
8. Marin X-Cut Woven Crosscut 360 AP HMT Cruising
9. Marin Radial Laminate Trioptimal EKKO, eXRP Cruise 13 Cruising
10. DP C-Breeze 351 C-Breeze is a universal Dacron made from 100% high tenacity yarn.
11. DP 360AP DP AP is also made from 100% high tenacity yarn but in addition this cloth has an improved bias stability and a better resistance to UV.
12. Full Batten Mainsail NPC Radian NorDac NDR 6.0

Thank you

 

[Puffin10032]

What will be the best cloth?

Every sail maker recommend his one, and said wouldn't really go for other one, but they couldn't really point difference.
Such a different price range, they are all 4 full battens, three reefs, logo and sail number, sail bag, triple stitched, tell tails, etc.


We have this options for main sail, which one shall we go for and why?

1. 9.45oz Challenge Newport All Purpose Dacron- Cross Cut
2. 9.86oz Challenge Fastnet - Cross Cut
3. 9.38oz Challenge Atlantic- Cross Cut
4. 9oz Cross Cut Dacron
5. 8.00oz High-Tenacity Polyester Yarn ( Dacron) Offshore Bluewater Cruising - Radial Cut Fully Batten
6. 8.00oz High-Tenacity Polyester Yarn ( Dacron) Offshore Bluewater Cruising - Cross Cut Fully Batten
7. Cruise Performance 8.55 Polyant Dacron
8. Marin X-Cut Woven Crosscut 360 AP HMT Cruising
9. Marin Radial Laminate Trioptimal EKKO, eXRP Cruise 13 Cruising
10. DP C-Breeze 351 C-Breeze is a universal Dacron made from 100% high tenacity yarn.
11. DP 360AP DP AP is also made from 100% high tenacity yarn but in addition this cloth has an improved bias stability and a better resistance to UV.
12. Full Batten Mainsail NPC Radian NorDac NDR 6.0

Thank you

There's no such thing as "best". It all depends on your budget, your boat and the sort of sailing you intend to do. My advice is to discuss these things with your sailmaker and trust their recommendation. If you don't trust them then why are you dealing with them? Would you get someone you don't trust to service your car?

Having said that, let me give you some observations on the various choices you've listed.

1 -3 are all from Challenge who are a highly respected sailcloth manufacturer. Newport is their entry-level range but is still a very good cloth. If you sailing consists of local weekend cruises with perhaps a week away across the Channel or North Sea then Newport will give give sails which will last for many years. It's sight weakness is in UV protection which isn't quite up to the standards of the higher-end cloths so possibly not the best choice for the Med or Caribbean but fine for more northerly climes as long as it's properly protected when not in use. Fastnet is a higher spec cloth which is more rugged and UV resistant. We're into ocean cruising cloths here. I can't find any useful information about Atlantic.

4-6 Cloth manufacturer not stated. Personally I would avoid no-name cloths. There are four main suppliers of sailcloth worldwide: Bainbridge, Challenge, Contender and Dimension Polyant (sometimes shortened to DP or Polyant). They all produce excellent sailcloth, some of it from the same factories.

7 Although from Dimension Polyant I can't find anything about this cloth as its not currently listed on their web site.

8,9 I can't find any information about Marin sailcloth. I don't think it's from one of the 4 main suppliers. Personally I'd avoid it.

10 C-Breeze is Dimension Polyant's top of the line woven cloth; very durable, high UV resistance. Again ocean crossing cloth.

11 AP is Dimension Polyant's mid-range cloth. Maybe more comparable with Challenge Newport

12 Again no idea who's cloth this is

You don't say what size your boat is but as some of the cloth weights you've been quoted are 9 oz and above I assume it's around 45 feet or more. At that size the forces on the cloth are very large and it might be worth considering a hybrid polyester/dyneema or polyester/vectran cloth. These cloths provide better long-term shape retention than even the highest quality pure polyester cloth whilst maintaining the durability of woven polyester. Not cheap though. The prices I've seen indicate almost double the price of high-end polyester. If you're planning to keep the boat for 15 or more years then the investment may pay off. If you're going to sell within the next 5 years then probably not as a high-end polyester sail should still be in decent condition.

I hope this helps.

 

[Sea Change]

@Puffin10032 do you have your Dimension Polyant cloths mixed up? The loft we have chosen quoted is in both C-Breeze and AP, and the AP was the higher spec and price (and what we have chosen).

 

[Nina Lucia]

There's no such thing as "best". It all depends on your budget, your boat and the sort of sailing you intend to do. My advice is to discuss these things with your sailmaker and trust their recommendation. If you don't trust them then why are you dealing with them? Would you get someone you don't trust to service your car?

Having said that, let me give you some observations on the various choices you've listed.

1 -3 are all from Challenge who are a highly respected sailcloth manufacturer. Newport is their entry-level range but is still a very good cloth. If you sailing consists of local weekend cruises with perhaps a week away across the Channel or North Sea then Newport will give give sails which will last for many years. It's sight weakness is in UV protection which isn't quite up to the standards of the higher-end cloths so possibly not the best choice for the Med or Caribbean but fine for more northerly climes as long as it's properly protected when not in use. Fastnet is a higher spec cloth which is more rugged and UV resistant. We're into ocean cruising cloths here. I can't find any useful information about Atlantic.

4-6 Cloth manufacturer not stated. Personally I would avoid no-name cloths. There are four main suppliers of sailcloth worldwide: Bainbridge, Challenge, Contender and Dimension Polyant (sometimes shortened to DP or Polyant). They all produce excellent sailcloth, some of it from the same factories.

7 Although from Dimension Polyant I can't find anything about this cloth as its not currently listed on their web site.

8,9 I can't find any information about Marin sailcloth. I don't think it's from one of the 4 main suppliers. Personally I'd avoid it.

10 C-Breeze is Dimension Polyant's top of the line woven cloth; very durable, high UV resistance. Again ocean crossing cloth.

11 AP is Dimension Polyant's mid-range cloth. Maybe more comparable with Challenge Newport

12 Again no idea who's cloth this is

You don't say what size your boat is but as some of the cloth weights you've been quoted are 9 oz and above I assume it's around 45 feet or more. At that size the forces on the cloth are very large and it might be worth considering a hybrid polyester/dyneema or polyester/vectran cloth. These cloths provide better long-term shape retention than even the highest quality pure polyester cloth whilst maintaining the durability of woven polyester. Not cheap though. The prices I've seen indicate almost double the price of high-end polyester. If you're planning to keep the boat for 15 or more years then the investment may pay off. If you're going to sell within the next 5 years then probably not as a high-end polyester sail should still be in decent condition.

I hope this helps.

 

[Nina Lucia]

There's no such thing as "best". It all depends on your budget, your boat and the sort of sailing you intend to do. My advice is to discuss these things with your sailmaker and trust their recommendation. If you don't trust them then why are you dealing with them? Would you get someone you don't trust to service your car?

Having said that, let me give you some observations on the various choices you've listed.

1 -3 are all from Challenge who are a highly respected sailcloth manufacturer. Newport is their entry-level range but is still a very good cloth. If you sailing consists of local weekend cruises with perhaps a week away across the Channel or North Sea then Newport will give give sails which will last for many years. It's sight weakness is in UV protection which isn't quite up to the standards of the higher-end cloths so possibly not the best choice for the Med or Caribbean but fine for more northerly climes as long as it's properly protected when not in use. Fastnet is a higher spec cloth which is more rugged and UV resistant. We're into ocean cruising cloths here. I can't find any useful information about Atlantic.

4-6 Cloth manufacturer not stated. Personally I would avoid no-name cloths. There are four main suppliers of sailcloth worldwide: Bainbridge, Challenge, Contender and Dimension Polyant (sometimes shortened to DP or Polyant). They all produce excellent sailcloth, some of it from the same factories.

7 Although from Dimension Polyant I can't find anything about this cloth as its not currently listed on their web site.

8,9 I can't find any information about Marin sailcloth. I don't think it's from one of the 4 main suppliers. Personally I'd avoid it.

10 C-Breeze is Dimension Polyant's top of the line woven cloth; very durable, high UV resistance. Again ocean crossing cloth.

11 AP is Dimension Polyant's mid-range cloth. Maybe more comparable with Challenge Newport

12 Again no idea who's cloth this is

You don't say what size your boat is but as some of the cloth weights you've been quoted are 9 oz and above I assume it's around 45 feet or more. At that size the forces on the cloth are very large and it might be worth considering a hybrid polyester/dyneema or polyester/vectran cloth. These cloths provide better long-term shape retention than even the highest quality pure polyester cloth whilst maintaining the durability of woven polyester. Not cheap though. The prices I've seen indicate almost double the price of high-end polyester. If you're planning to keep the boat for 15 or more years then the investment may pay off. If you're going to sell within the next 5 years then probably not as a high-end polyester sail should still be in decent condition.

I hope this helps.

HI , that was so helpful to make decision about supplier and sail cloth.
Thank you!

 

[Nina Lucia]

Why not go full British
Home - Jeckells The Sailmakers.
Your country needs you

We had quote from Jeckells and they are about £2000 more expensive then "Fareast Sails", £5000 cheaper than "North Sails", specifications are very similar.
Except we will need to do all measurements our self.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

We had quote from Jeckells and they are about £2000 more expensive then "Fareast Sails", £5000 cheaper than "North Sails", specifications are very similar.
Except we will need to do all measurements our self.

Ouch..
That's a big difference.