New Benjenbav - spot the difference

[Wandering Star]

W

I love sailors. They’re so predictable…

LMeanwhile over on Anarchy, based on the same render, it’s been dismissed as bloated, far too cruisy and just dull. Because according to the experts there everything that has any claims to be a racing boat these days should plane in 12 knots and definitely shouldn’t have hull windows.

Never change folks, never change….

You lost me at “according to the experts there” ….

The experts are here on YBW, they’re just pretendy sailors on Anarchy.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I love sailors. They’re so predictable…

Here we are on YBW, and based solely on 1 render this boat has been dismissed as a death trap that you definitely shouldn’t take your family cruising in. Just in case you take a wave over an open stern in 50 knots or something. Because according to the experts here, every cruising boat must be capable of sailing comfortably in 50 knots. Otherwise it’s a death trap.

Meanwhile over on Anarchy, based on the same render, it’s been dismissed as bloated, far too cruisy and just dull. Because according to the experts there everything that has any claims to be a racing boat these days should plane in 12 knots and definitely shouldn’t have hull windows.

Never change folks, never change….

I responded to two points in regards to the design, both of which I have some actual experience with:

Firstly the open transom: When we were slammed from astern in the Straight of Gibraltar the winds were no more than 15kts. This was precisely why I said out of nowhere. There was a swell coming out of the Med and the inflowing current probably sharpened the waves up a bit, even though they were quite far apart. You can have the same effect around the CIs, various points around your South Coast and any self-respecting cape or headland in Brittany. It doesn't need 50kts and I well know the difference having been pooped a few time in seas of 50kts and more.

Secondly, the companies claim that this is a Family Cruiser. I'm not sure the marketing manager who's fevered mind came up with this statement has ever done much family sailing. My kids made their first steps aboard a boat before we moved into a house.
The initial stages of family sailing involve covering the boat in anti boarding netting as if you were seeking to repel pirates, also you want a deep sheltered cockpit from where the little precious ones are not likely to bounce out of when you change tack and preferably not a six foot drop to the cabin deck down a steep ladder either. This is also the time where one of the partners gets to hone their single handed skills, they better, because this phase may be the end of any family adventures on the boat as one partner struggles with the marine requirements and the other with the joys of caring for a toddler under much more difficult circumstances than ashore, combined with the very real concerns and fears of an unstable environment. An open transom and a type of boat you tend to sit on rather than in doesn't help one little bit and you can definitely kiss any idea of planing at 20kts in medium winds good bye.
My doctor went to the dark side over this: You see, MoBos have deep cockpits and most don't have the cliff face drop-off into the cabin, they don't heel and provide sheltered seating with a view. It was all his wife could manage in the way of marine adventure while caring for a couple of little children. One could also ad bulwarks (to keep toys, shoes and other loose items, including the favourite and critical soother from falling over board) and solid rails to the list of desirable features.

The next phase of family cruising requires a safe place to tow toy boats from or hang a fishing rod over the side (without hooking the helmsman's ear or poking someone's eye out) a little later a sheltered, saltwater free and private location for operating electronic devices becomes mandatory and for the female offspring, perhaps, a dry area, not shaded by some pesky sail, for sun bathing. Enjoy this part, even though it involves strenuous shore excursions to tire them out, because it is very short and will likely be the last family sailing you will ever do. The times you will travel much more than ten miles at a time will be rare and you will be reminded to keep it so before you've even stowed the shore lines after casting off.

Finally, you can do all the rigorous sailing you like, because it's the end of family sailing: nothing short of a death threat will get your teenagers to come sailing with you. They're off to the grandparents, in-laws (bless 'em), youth camp or the juvenile detention for the summer. On the downside, by then you're spouse might have had enough of sailing as well, as witnessed by the many singlehanders on this forum. Good thing you got to hone those "single sailor" skills during the first phase of family sailing.

Over to the real armchair sailors.

 

[Tranona]

All very valid if you define "family" in the way that you have - middle class mum, dad and 2.4 based on your experience. Families, particularly in this modern age take all sorts of shapes and forms. You have taken the word "family" too literally but the term has been used for years in describing racy boats that can be cruised. That is the message they want to get across to differentiate it from the out and out racers at one end and the cruisy at the other. Beneteau have a strong line up in all these 3 broad sectors. They know what sells and offer products to fit each sector. Plenty of Beneteau models that would fit your definition of a "family" cruiser but would not have the racy capability.

 

[Tranona]

As the OP I can confirm my motives were purely mischievous. Without further details, which are apparently not forthcoming, the rendered illustration looked very similar to many present offerings. The idea it was designed by a committee raised memories of the camel/horse meme. I have been gratified by the response from the usual suspects, particularly the gratuitous mention of my own boat, the Contessa 32.
Thank you all for your efforts.

And here is me thinking that you had finally seen the light and were considering buying one as a replacement for your current boat. Good idea as the brief was similar - above average performance, potentially active racing scene and capable of cruising. Indeed a step up from the more obvious replacement from the Beneteau range the 31.7.

Perhaps you could persuade your friendly YM journalists to do a comparative test of the Contessa 32 to see if there has been any improvement in this type of boat with this design brief rather than the flawed earlier comparison! Might help you make up your mind before you place your deposit.

 

[westernman]

I responded to two points in regards to the design, both of which I have some actual experience with:

Firstly the open transom: When we were slammed from astern in the Straight of Gibraltar the winds were no more than 15kts. This was precisely why I said out of nowhere. There was a swell coming out of the Med and the inflowing current probably sharpened the waves up a bit, even though they were quite far apart. You can have the same effect around the CIs, various points around your South Coast and any self-respecting cape or headland in Brittany. It doesn't need 50kts and I well know the difference having been pooped a few time in seas of 50kts and more.

Secondly, the companies claim that this is a Family Cruiser. I'm not sure the marketing manager who's fevered mind came up with this statement has ever done much family sailing. My kids made their first steps aboard a boat before we moved into a house.
The initial stages of family sailing involve covering the boat in anti boarding netting as if you were seeking to repel pirates, also you want a deep sheltered cockpit from where the little precious ones are not likely to bounce out of when you change tack and preferably not a six foot drop to the cabin deck down a steep ladder either. This is also the time where one of the partners gets to hone their single handed skills, they better, because this phase may be the end of any family adventures on the boat as one partner struggles with the marine requirements and the other with the joys of caring for a toddler under much more difficult circumstances than ashore, combined with the very real concerns and fears of an unstable environment. An open transom and a type of boat you tend to sit on rather than in doesn't help one little bit and you can definitely kiss any idea of planing at 20kts in medium winds good bye.
My doctor went to the dark side over this: You see, MoBos have deep cockpits and most don't have the cliff face drop-off into the cabin, they don't heel and provide sheltered seating with a view. It was all his wife could manage in the way of marine adventure while caring for a couple of little children. One could also ad bulwarks (to keep toys, shoes and other loose items, including the favourite and critical soother from falling over board) and solid rails to the list of desirable features.

The next phase of family cruising requires a safe place to tow toy boats from or hang a fishing rod over the side (without hooking the helmsman's ear or poking someone's eye out) a little later a sheltered, saltwater free and private location for operating electronic devices becomes mandatory and for the female offspring, perhaps, a dry area, not shaded by some pesky sail, for sun bathing. Enjoy this part, even though it involves strenuous shore excursions to tire them out, because it is very short and will likely be the last family sailing you will ever do. The times you will travel much more than ten miles at a time will be rare and you will be reminded to keep it so before you've even stowed the shore lines after casting off.

Finally, you can do all the rigorous sailing you like, because it's the end of family sailing: nothing short of a death threat will get your teenagers to come sailing with you. They're off to the grandparents, in-laws (bless 'em), youth camp or the juvenile detention for the summer. On the downside, by then you're spouse might have had enough of sailing as well, as witnessed by the many singlehanders on this forum. Good thing you got to hone those "single sailor" skills during the first phase of family sailing.

Over to the real armchair sailors.

Just get the kid to drive while you relax......

 

[flaming]

I responded to two points in regards to the design, both of which I have some actual experience with:

Secondly, the companies claim that this is a Family Cruiser. I'm not sure the marketing manager who's fevered mind came up with this statement has ever done much family sailing. My kids made their first steps aboard a boat before we moved into a house.
The initial stages of family sailing involve covering the boat in anti boarding netting as if you were seeking to repel pirates, also you want a deep sheltered cockpit from where the little precious ones are not likely to bounce out of when you change tack and preferably not a six foot drop to the cabin deck down a steep ladder either. This is also the time where one of the partners gets to hone their single handed skills, they better, because this phase may be the end of any family adventures on the boat as one partner struggles with the marine requirements and the other with the joys of caring for a toddler under much more difficult circumstances than ashore, combined with the very real concerns and fears of an unstable environment. An open transom and a type of boat you tend to sit on rather than in doesn't help one little bit and you can definitely kiss any idea of planing at 20kts in medium winds good bye.
My doctor went to the dark side over this: You see, MoBos have deep cockpits and most don't have the cliff face drop-off into the cabin, they don't heel and provide sheltered seating with a view. It was all his wife could manage in the way of marine adventure while caring for a couple of little children. One could also ad bulwarks (to keep toys, shoes and other loose items, including the favourite and critical soother from falling over board) and solid rails to the list of desirable features.

The next phase of family cruising requires a safe place to tow toy boats from or hang a fishing rod over the side (without hooking the helmsman's ear or poking someone's eye out) a little later a sheltered, saltwater free and private location for operating electronic devices becomes mandatory and for the female offspring, perhaps, a dry area, not shaded by some pesky sail, for sun bathing. Enjoy this part, even though it involves strenuous shore excursions to tire them out, because it is very short and will likely be the last family sailing you will ever do. The times you will travel much more than ten miles at a time will be rare and you will be reminded to keep it so before you've even stowed the shore lines after casting off.

Finally, you can do all the rigorous sailing you like, because it's the end of family sailing: nothing short of a death threat will get your teenagers to come sailing with you. They're off to the grandparents, in-laws (bless 'em), youth camp or the juvenile detention for the summer. On the downside, by then you're spouse might have had enough of sailing as well, as witnessed by the many singlehanders on this forum. Good thing you got to hone those "single sailor" skills during the first phase of family sailing.

Over to the real armchair sailors.

Time and time again on these forums you confuse your experiences, your preferences with the only possible valid ones, and then lecture everyone that dares to be different that they are wrong and doomed to failure. I mean, just read your post, what a load of patronising nonsense. "Do it this way, or you will put your family off sailing completely".
Your boat is, I am sure, a lovely way to take your family sailing. It is not however the only way. And some people, many in fact, would actively prefer to go family sailing in something a little bit more fun to sail.

I know of more than one family whose cruising boat is a long way from what you describe as your ideal, and who's children beg to go sailing, not get hived off to Grandparents etc. That was, after all, my experience of being introduced to sailing in what, according to you, was a succession of wildly inappropriate boats. And yet, here I am....
Some great friends of ours just spent a week cruising their J111 (which is probably remarkably similar to this Beneteau in speed and comfort) down to the west country with their 2 Primary school age kids ahead of Dartmouth week. I think they started doing this when the youngest was about 3. Far from being put off by sailing in such a totally unsuitable boat they begged to be allowed to sail more, and in fact they did their first race on board last week.

I once met a family with 3 kids under 10 and an absolutely massive golden retriever cruising for 3 weeks in a 1/4 tonner and having an absolute whale of a time. I can't even imagine how they all fitted down below, but those kids were clearly absolutely loving going sailing with their parents.
My own kids are getting introduced to sailing on a boat that is considerably less comfortable than this Benetau, though a little better than a 1/4 tonner..... Not because it's the perfect family boat, but it's because it's what I have access to. One of them sat with a broom handle over his lap gripped like a tiller yesterday and announced "I'm steering Daddy's boat". So I don't think I've put them off yet.

All of which leads me to conclude that "family sailing" is far less about the boat you have, but far, far more about the attitude of the family, and the ability to make it fun. Would I take my family sailing in that Beneteau? Of course. It looks like it will be a perfectly suitable boat for the task.
Not that I could afford it, but that's another matter.

And here's the thing. Although your boat may be capable of planing in medium winds, doesn't mean you do that when in family cruising mode. It just means that when you don't have the family on board you have something that can....

Firstly the open transom: When we were slammed from astern in the Straight of Gibraltar the winds were no more than 15kts. This was precisely why I said out of nowhere. There was a swell coming out of the Med and the inflowing current probably sharpened the waves up a bit, even though they were quite far apart. You can have the same effect around the CIs, various points around your South Coast and any self-respecting cape or headland in Brittany. It doesn't need 50kts and I well know the difference having been pooped a few time in seas of 50kts and more.

And yet weirdly there are not hundreds of reports of open transomed boats getting pooped continuously in moderate conditions. If there were, then families wouldn't buy them because that would be very unpleasant... I've done a lot of miles in open transomed boats. Some of which in some pretty nasty weather. And I've done quite a few silly things like plunging straight through overfalls, sufing downwind because it's quicker than going round. I have never, ever, taken a wave over the stern of an open transomed boat. Not saying it couldn't happen, but that given my experience it really isn't something I would factor into choosing a family boat from a safety point of view, as it hardly seems common, even when being a bit silly.

Weirdly though, I have been hit very hard on the stern by a wave when sailing an older, heavier boat, also in not especially rough conditions. I suspect that the way this boat sat "in" rather than "on" the water was the difference. Where the stern of the lighter, beamier, more buoyant, boat just lifts and allows the boat to surf away from the breaking wave, the heavier boat did not, so took a big hit, similar to the incident you describe.

 

[flaming]

Just get the kid to drive while you relax......

Exactly....

Family sailing. And amazing to see.

 

[dunedin]

Time and time again on these forums you confuse your experiences, your preferences with the only possible valid ones, and then lecture everyone that dares to be different that they are wrong and doomed to failure. I mean, just read your post, what a load of patronising nonsense. "Do it this way, or you will put your family off sailing completely".
Your boat is, I am sure, a lovely way to take your family sailing. It is not however the only way. And some people, many in fact, would actively prefer to go family sailing in something a little bit more fun to sail.

I know of more than one family whose cruising boat is a long way from what you describe as your ideal, and who's children beg to go sailing, not get hived off to Grandparents etc. That was, after all, my experience of being introduced to sailing in what, according to you, was a succession of wildly inappropriate boats. And yet, here I am....
Some great friends of ours just spent a week cruising their J111 (which is probably remarkably similar to this Beneteau in speed and comfort) down to the west country with their 2 Primary school age kids ahead of Dartmouth week. I think they started doing this when the youngest was about 3. Far from being put off by sailing in such a totally unsuitable boat they begged to be allowed to sail more, and in fact they did their first race on board last week.

I once met a family with 3 kids under 10 and an absolutely massive golden retriever cruising for 3 weeks in a 1/4 tonner and having an absolute whale of a time. I can't even imagine how they all fitted down below, but those kids were clearly absolutely loving going sailing with their parents.
My own kids are getting introduced to sailing on a boat that is considerably less comfortable than this Benetau, though a little better than a 1/4 tonner..... Not because it's the perfect family boat, but it's because it's what I have access to. One of them sat with a broom handle over his lap gripped like a tiller yesterday and announced "I'm steering Daddy's boat". So I don't think I've put them off yet.

All of which leads me to conclude that "family sailing" is far less about the boat you have, but far, far more about the attitude of the family, and the ability to make it fun. Would I take my family sailing in that Beneteau? Of course. It looks like it will be a perfectly suitable boat for the task.
Not that I could afford it, but that's another matter.

And here's the thing. Although your boat may be capable of planing in medium winds, doesn't mean you do that when in family cruising mode. It just means that when you don't have the family on board you have something that can....



And yet weirdly there are not hundreds of reports of open transomed boats getting pooped continuously in moderate conditions. If there were, then families wouldn't buy them because that would be very unpleasant... I've done a lot of miles in open transomed boats. Some of which in some pretty nasty weather. And I've done quite a few silly things like plunging straight through overfalls, sufing downwind because it's quicker than going round. I have never, ever, taken a wave over the stern of an open transomed boat. Not saying it couldn't happen, but that given my experience it really isn't something I would factor into choosing a family boat from a safety point of view, as it hardly seems common, even when being a bit silly.

Weirdly though, I have been hit very hard on the stern by a wave when sailing an older, heavier boat, also in not especially rough conditions. I suspect that the way this boat sat "in" rather than "on" the water was the difference. Where the stern of the lighter, beamier, more buoyant, boat just lifts and allows the boat to surf away from the breaking wave, the heavier boat did not, so took a big hit, similar to the incident you describe.

Spot on.
Many are continuing to miss entirely that
(a) this is a Beneteau First - ie racer / cruiser, and if want something more sedate there are plenty such options in the Group Beneteau range
(b) families are not all the same - in many French families, the 8 year old may be racing an Oppie solo in 2m Atlantic swell, and the 12 year old kite surfing - they would not come sailing with parents in anything less than a Pogo
(c) not everybody wants to sail round the world (albeit many / most do it in boats considered by some as totally inappropriate, but they get in and do it rather than waiting for Forum approval)

How about this fast cruiser for sale - Knierim FC53, NICA - Berthon International
Saw it - very briefly - at the start of our ARC. Worth reading the Owner Comments, as looks like completed their circumnavigation since then. Not all families are the same

 

[DoubleEnder]

How about this fast cruiser for sale - Knierim FC53, NICA - Berthon International
Saw it - very briefly - at the start of our ARC. Worth reading the Owner Comments, as looks like completed their circumnavigation since then. Not all families are the same

Oh that is really something......

 

[Laminar Flow]

Spot on.
Many are continuing to miss entirely that
(a) this is a Beneteau First - ie racer / cruiser, and if want something more sedate there are plenty such options in the Group Beneteau range
(b) families are not all the same - in many French families, the 8 year old may be racing an Oppie solo in 2m Atlantic swell, and the 12 year old kite surfing - they would not come sailing with parents in anything less than a Pogo
(c) not everybody wants to sail round the world (albeit many / most do it in boats considered by some as totally inappropriate, but they get in and do it rather than waiting for Forum approval)

How about this fast cruiser for sale - Knierim FC53, NICA - Berthon International
Saw it - very briefly - at the start of our ARC. Worth reading the Owner Comments, as looks like completed their circumnavigation since then. Not all families are the same

Each to their own. Nowhere did I ever claim that my own experiences are the norm or measure for others. I merely relate my own experiences of sailing, cruising, ocean crossing & living aboard a variety of boats and also have a number of friends and acquaintances that have done the same and we happily exchange experiences.

As I have repeatedly said, I have no attachment to what kind of boat people sail, nor do I run around claiming that any particular type of keel or so is the only way to go, but I can say what works for me and why and generally even try to back up such points with numbers.

There is plenty of nonsense written on either side of the debate and by the proponents of both modern and traditional craft and quite frequently there is a lot of comparing of apples and oranges here, such as some older and much smaller (and maybe frumpy) designs with extraordinary 60' long creations (to the tune of 1.5 million pounds sterling no less) to prove the superiority of modern boats for family cruising. At 60' you definitely can have that washer/dryer on board without overly affecting you Disp/Length ratio!
I am not a racer, I have done so, but its really its not my thing. I cruise and while I do enjoy a fast passage (astonishingly, we do actually manage that within context of displacement speeds), I prefer a comfortable one, even on my old piece of plastic rubbish.

 

[flaming]

Each to their own. Nowhere did I ever claim that my own experiences are the norm or measure for others.

Oh please.

Your post #62 could be summed up as "do it like this or your children and partner will hate sailing and you'll sail alone."

 

[Yara]

Whatever your personal opinion about this design is, ultimately the market will decide if it is a good design. Sales spin only works on the newbies, and there are, I hear, quite a few cashed up newbies out there. That is great for the rest of us as provided the newbies do not do too much keel damage, sooner or later the boat appears on the second hand market as a bargain.
If this boat makes your heart sing, great. If not, let others enjoy it.

 

[flaming]

Preliminary specs have been released.
Bridging the gap: The brand new BENETEAU First 36

4.8 tonnes for a 36 footer... Quite tasty that. Just a smidge heavier than the J111, which is a fast boat, and setting a bit more sail. Significantly more beam which is carried all the way aft too, which was my one criticism of the J111, it's lack of form stability limiting the sail you can carry on a reach.

I'll believe that weight when I see the first measured rating certificate, but if they get close, this thing could actually be a pretty good take on what a racer/cruiser should be in 2021, at significantly less money than the specialist yards, pogo et al, and J....

 

[Laminar Flow]

Preliminary specs have been released.
Bridging the gap: The brand new BENETEAU First 36

4.8 tonnes for a 36 footer... Quite tasty that. Just a smidge heavier than the J111, which is a fast boat, and setting a bit more sail. Significantly more beam which is carried all the way aft too, which was my one criticism of the J111, it's lack of form stability limiting the sail you can carry on a reach.

I'll believe that weight when I see the first measured rating certificate, but if they get close, this thing could actually be a pretty good take on what a racer/cruiser should be in 2021, at significantly less money than the specialist yards, pogo et al, and J....

One does well to be suspicious of any weight and, consequently, any performance predictions by designers and makers.
This goes for builders of performance as well as cruising craft, when performance predictions and relevant numbers are based on completely empty boats with not even the weight of crew factored in, never mind any of the standard bits necessary to safely navigate or keep the thing afloat.
I have read several instances where owners of performance craft have been rather disappointed that their boats did not meet the performance hyperbole suggested by the manufacturers data and numbers.

 

[Ingwe]

It's the beam that surprised me as it's a bit wider than a SF 3600 which is already a pretty beamy boat. But at least it does look like they have been allowed to do a scaled up seascape as opposed to something more traditional. The crucial thing for them for sales over here is whether it can sail to it's rating, but they have a better chance with this than the previous Seascapes as it is at about the size where IRC doesn't completely crucify you for having a planing hull.

 

[flaming]

One does well to be suspicious of any weight and, consequently, any performance predictions by designers and makers.
This goes for builders of performance as well as cruising craft, when performance predictions and relevant numbers are based on completely empty boats with not even the weight of crew factored in, never mind any of the standard bits necessary to safely navigate or keep the thing afloat.
I have read several instances where owners of performance craft have been rather disappointed that their boats did not meet the performance hyperbole suggested by the manufacturers data and numbers.

Which is precisely why you compare the published numbers with the published numbers of other well known craft to evaluate performance rather than relying on numbers alone.

In this case this boat will sit somewhere between the Sunfast 3600 and the J111 in terms of downwind speed. Probably be a bit quicker reaching than either, and significantly quicker than the sunfast upwind.

 

[flaming]

Something that I confess I'd missed amongst all this was the identity of the designer. Sam Manuard. His recent boats include the IMOCA L'Occitane, and a fair few of the leading class 40s. He is proving himself adept at designing fast hulls, which makes me very keen to see this boat in the flesh....

 

[blade]

Something that I confess I'd missed amongst all this was the identity of the designer. Sam Manuard. His recent boats include the IMOCA L'Occitane, and a fair few of the leading class 40s. He is proving himself adept at designing fast hulls, which makes me very keen to see this boat in the flesh....

Think I will be taking a trip to Dusseldorf to see it in the flesh.

 

[Ingwe]

They have also hinted that once they are happy with the production line they will produce a 'Seascape Edition' with presumably bigger carbon rig and more weight saving.

 

[flaming]

I do like this view...