New Benjenbav - spot the difference

[Greenheart]

...bunny pad...

I'm reluctant to ask...I think Finn dinghy sailors used "pussy pads".

I was reluctant to ask or even to speculate about them, too, and I still don't know.
.

 

[geem]

But it is fair, because in the 70s/80s the average sailing family was on boats from 20 to 35 feet, we used to sail with loads of other families when I was a kid, and anything over 30ft was a palace - now families are in 35 to 45 foot boats - family cruisers start at around 33 feet - and there is no modern eqivalent to the 20 to 25ft pocket cruisers from the 70s/80s - try finding a real equivalent to the Kingfisher 20+ today, four-berth 20 footer with a sea toilet, wet locker, and miniature galley and chart table.

A 40 footer from the 70s/80s was eye wateringly expensive new .... the equivalent now is a 53-55 footer, with air-con, dinghy garage, generator, electric winches, bunny pad, water maker, electric mood lighting, electric sunbathing platform, at least four cabins with en-suite etc. etc. .... sure you can retro-fit some of it into an 80s boat but it will never be a modern boat, and modern manufacturers will never build a 70s/80s design again because there is no market for them.

The big plus is that if boats are looked after, they last a long time, so you can always find something that fits your aspirations, budget, DIY ability and personal taste. Every boat is a compromise, and every sailor buys the compromise they are happy with.

How is it fair to say old boats are damp, cramped and undesirable compared to something when you don't compare size for size?
You assume that people keep an old boat like a museum piece and never update it. Our 44ft boat doesn't have the same number of beds as a modern 44 ft boat but it isn't designed as a charter boat so why would it. It does have a generator, watermaker, loads of solar, big inverter, ice maker, two fridges and a freezer, powerful autopilot, two big chartplotters, two heads, etc,etc it isn't damp, cramped or dark. It's also fast and comfortable. What I am I missing?

 

[pvb]

I'm reluctant to ask...I think Finn dinghy sailors used "pussy pads".

I was reluctant to ask or even to speculate about them, too, and I still don't know.
.

This is a "bunny pad"...

 

[Greenheart]

I see. Why the stupid name? It's a sun-bed. Nothing long-eared in sight.

That one could be said to resemble a pussy-pad, I s'pose.
.

 

[Greenheart]

Our 44ft boat ... does have a generator, watermaker, loads of solar, big inverter, ice maker, two fridges and two heads, etc, it isn't damp, cramped or dark.

Sounds fab. What is it? I want to compare its layout with whatever Benjenbav build at a similar size.

Bet I'll prefer yours.

 

[geem]

Sounds fab. What is it? I want to compare its layout with whatever Benjenbav build at a similar size.

Bet I'll prefer yours.

Trintella 44. They did a couple of internal layouts. Ours has double in back cabin. The Trintella 45 is the same hull with an angled transom. They have a completely different layout below.
They have huge tankage. 800l water, 500l water 125l holding tank. All under the cabin sole. 7 ft headroom in saloon, separate walk in engine rm with bench, generator below, 86hp Perkins, large sail area so they sail well in light wind. I could go on but you get the idea.
We wouldn't change it for anything else because it suits our needs perfectly. Just like a modern open transom design would suit somebody else's idea of the perfect boat. People use their boats in vastly differing ways. Experience has taught us what we need/want from a boat.
Later this year we will do our 5th Atlantic crossing?

 

[Tranona]

How is it fair to say old boats are damp, cramped and undesirable compared to something when you don't compare size for size?
You assume that people keep an old boat like a museum piece and never update it. Our 44ft boat doesn't have the same number of beds as a modern 44 ft boat but it isn't designed as a charter boat so why would it. It does have a generator, watermaker, loads of solar, big inverter, ice maker, two fridges and a freezer, powerful autopilot, two big chartplotters, two heads, etc,etc it isn't damp, cramped or dark. It's also fast and comfortable. What I am I missing?

You are missing the fact that you and your boat are not the norm. Suggest you look at the ads (or better still the boatyards) to see the large number of boats of all sizes from the era your boat was built mouldering away and fitting well with Baggywrinkle's description. Many are like that because they were poorly built and among other things leaked. The years and the multiple changes in ownership, every one giving up on the task of keeping them running to the point that they have little value.

When I first looked at buying a big boat just over 20 years ago I was looking first at 10-20 year old boats and was appalled at how bad they were so bought a new AWB for very little more money. 20 year old AWBs are in infinitely better condition than 20 year old boats in 1999. Primarily because they are better built and by and large do not leak so no more damp bilges, soggy cushions, condensation running down the windows and so on.

 

[geem]

You are missing the fact that you and your boat are not the norm. Suggest you look at the ads (or better still the boatyards) to see the large number of boats of all sizes from the era your boat was built mouldering away and fitting well with Baggywrinkle's description. Many are like that because they were poorly built and among other things leaked. The years and the multiple changes in ownership, every one giving up on the task of keeping them running to the point that they have little value.

When I first looked at buying a big boat just over 20 years ago I was looking first at 10-20 year old boats and was appalled at how bad they were so bought a new AWB for very little more money. 20 year old AWBs are in infinitely better condition than 20 year old boats in 1999. Primarily because they are better built and by and large do not leak so no more damp bilges, soggy cushions, condensation running down the windows and so on.

Maybe you should have looked better built boats such as Swans, Trintellas, HR, Amels, etc

 

[Greenheart]

Trintella 44

Bavaria 44

Jeanneau 44

Yup, I like Geem's boat best. ?

 

[geem]

You are missing the fact that you and your boat are not the norm. Suggest you look at the ads (or better still the boatyards) to see the large number of boats of all sizes from the era your boat was built mouldering away and fitting well with Baggywrinkle's description. Many are like that because they were poorly built and among other things leaked. The years and the multiple changes in ownership, every one giving up on the task of keeping them running to the point that they have little value.

When I first looked at buying a big boat just over 20 years ago I was looking first at 10-20 year old boats and was appalled at how bad they were so bought a new AWB for very little more money. 20 year old AWBs are in infinitely better condition than 20 year old boats in 1999. Primarily because they are better built and by and large do not leak so no more damp bilges, soggy cushions, condensation running down the windows and so on.

With regard to leaks, we have come across numerous modern boats where toerail cappings are an integral part of the boat structure. The toerail hold the deck and hull together. The two parts are riveted together then the toerail is bolted through. In an impact the toerail moves and the boat leaks. To repair the whole torail needs to come off. This in many cases means headlining down. Some modern designs cant easily achieve this. How is this better built than a boat like, my own, that may or may not be typical of lousy construction in the 70/80s, but nonetheless, it's what We have. Our deck and hull are glassed together. The toerail is then bolted every 4" with M8 bolts. The toerail sits inboard of the deck edge so isn't vulnerable to impact.
I could go on and on about new boat construction being about ways to simplify therefore reduce costs of manufacture rather than best engineering practise but that ground has been covered numerous times. Let's just accept that we don't all agree that we don't all want the same things from a boat. Some love modern, some love older designs. I say this as a retired engineer who could just as easily have afforded to purchase a modern boat but didn't want one. Happy sailing

 

[Daydream believer]

"Who really wants to sail the atlantic or travel to the Azores or the Canaries. Only the dreamers so not that many really in proportion to boat owners"

Er, me. .......Just off on our next Atlantic crossing?. Currently in Cascais.
Got back from the last Atlantic crossing last July via the Azores.

Ok there is always a few. Do the bucket list while they have some money to burn.
But then I would not want to be a live aboard. Tried it & saw a lot of unhappy liveaboards as well. I soon realised how false a lot of it was. Jacked that in fairly quickly.
I was amazed how many Brits are swanning about in boats doing little or no work at all. Some enjoying it, some making out they are-- & bragging about their "lifestyle".
But to each his own & many do enjoy the lifestyle & to them the right boat is an essential part of it.

 

[Dragon461]

Hi. You appear

You are missing the fact that you and your boat are not the norm. Suggest you look at the ads (or better still the boatyards) to see the large number of boats of all sizes from the era your boat was built mouldering away and fitting well with Baggywrinkle's description. Many are like that because they were poorly built and among other things leaked. The years and the multiple changes in ownership, every one giving up on the task of keeping them running to the point that they have little value.

When I first looked at buying a big boat just over 20 years ago I was looking first at 10-20 year old boats and was appalled at how bad they were so bought a new AWB for very little more money. 20 year old AWBs are in infinitely better condition than 20 year old boats in 1999. Primarily because they are better built and by and large do not leak so no more damp bilges, soggy cushions, condensation running down the windows and so on.

Hi
You appear very knowledgeable where did you learn so much about boats in general

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Maybe you should have looked better built boats such as Swans, Trintellas, HR, Amels, etc

Now we are getting somewhere, the Trintella 44 was the flagship of their range back in 1979 ... it was very expensive and certainly not typical of what the average family were sailing at the time. You obviously have a well preserved example and are happy with it .... in 2000 her equivalent was perhaps this 2000 Trintella 58A Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk ... which if well looked after will still be a great boat in another 20 years when compared to similar length AWBs.

My point was a simple one, most boats built in the 70s/80s that were used by the average sailing family of the time were cramped, damp, and devoid of luxuries - they were generally more heavily built but many still suffered from structural problems because the technology and materials were not available to engineer them as efficiently as today. The boat in the berth next to mine is a HR41 from the 70s which is being painstakingly restored by its owner - it will be a wonderful boat when he is finished, and he's been at it for 2 years so far - but there is not much more space on it than on my Bav36, the cockpit is cramped and you need to scale a ladder on the stern to get in and out of the tender.

Have a look at what Mads found when refitting his Warrior 38 (again, a lusted after boat at the time it was built)

... this is the norm rather than the exception in 40 year old boats.

 

[dunedin]

How far have we now diverted from the thread which started with a newly announced "RACER /cruiser"?
It is intended for people who want a boat to race and occasionally cruise, and at an "affordable" (in relative terms) price.
Not sure the boats being discussed now would be ideal purchases for racing.

And if a purchaser wanted to do round the world cruising, Group Beneteau would be able to offer many more suitable alternatives (including a catamaran, which may be most popular these days).

Next peeps will be suggesting a 1970s long keeler would be better than a 49er for a dinghy race at Hayling Island.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

How far have we now diverted from the thread which started with a newly announced "RACER /cruiser"?
It is intended for people who want a boat to race and occasionally cruise, and at an "affordable" (in relative terms) price.
Not sure the boats being discussed now would be ideal purchases for racing.

And if a purchaser wanted to do round the world cruising, Group Beneteau would be able to offer many more suitable alternatives (including a catamaran, which may be most popular these days).

Next peeps will be suggesting a 1970s long keeler would be better than a 49er for a dinghy race at Hayling Island.

The original post was just a troll with an open invitation for the usual suspects to wade in and condemn anything built this century. I don't think the OP wanted or expected a balanced discussion. .... and a 1970s long keeler would be better than a 49er for a race at Hayling Island - it would have a much more comfortable motion and would have plenty of handholds below.

 

[geem]

"Who really wants to sail the atlantic or travel to the Azores or the Canaries. Only the dreamers so not that many really in proportion to boat owners"

Er, me. .......Just off on our next Atlantic crossing?. Currently in Cascais.
Got back from the last Atlantic crossing last July via the Azores.

Ok there is always a few. Do the bucket list while they have some money to burn.
But then I would not want to be a live aboard. Tried it & saw a lot of unhappy liveaboards as well. I soon realised how false a lot of it was. Jacked that in fairly quickly.
I was amazed how many Brits are swanning about in boats doing little or no work at all. Some enjoying it, some making out they are-- & bragging about their "lifestyle".
But to each his own & many do enjoy the lifestyle & to them the right boat is an essential part of it.

I can't say I have met an unhappy liveaboard but we don't make a habit of living in a boat in the UK. Most of our experience

Now we are getting somewhere, the Trintella 44 was the flagship of their range back in 1979 ... it was very expensive and certainly not typical of what the average family were sailing at the time. You obviously have a well preserved example and are happy with it .... in 2000 her equivalent was perhaps this 2000 Trintella 58A Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk ... which if well looked after will still be a great boat in another 20 years when compared to similar length AWBs.

My point was a simple one, most boats built in the 70s/80s that were used by the average sailing family of the time were cramped, damp, and devoid of luxuries - they were generally more heavily built but many still suffered from structural problems because the technology and materials were not available to engineer them as efficiently as today. The boat in the berth next to mine is a HR41 from the 70s which is being painstakingly restored by its owner - it will be a wonderful boat when he is finished, and he's been at it for 2 years so far - but there is not much more space on it than on my Bav36, the cockpit is cramped and you need to scale a ladder on the stern to get in and out of the tender.

Have a look at what Mads found when refitting his Warrior 38 (again, a lusted after boat at the time it was built)

... this is the norm rather than the exception in 40 year old boats.

We know the HR41 well. Friends have one. The Trintella 44 is considerably more spacious and a fair bit faster. I would say that wouldn't I ?
Yes the Trintella was above average for her time. She was actually all electric cooking when she was built. Well ahead of her time.
Maybe not typical of here age but a great example of what could be achieved with the help of Van de Stadt as the designer.
She is also Airex foam core construction. All perfectly dry in both hull and deck. She was well built

 

[awol]

The original post was just a troll with an open invitation for the usual suspects to wade in and condemn anything built this century. I don't think the OP wanted or expected a balanced discussion. .... and a 1970s long keeler would be better than a 49er for a race at Hayling Island - it would have a much more comfortable motion and would have plenty of handholds below.

As the OP I can confirm my motives were purely mischievous. Without further details, which are apparently not forthcoming, the rendered illustration looked very similar to many present offerings. The idea it was designed by a committee raised memories of the camel/horse meme. I have been gratified by the response from the usual suspects, particularly the gratuitous mention of my own boat, the Contessa 32.
Thank you all for your efforts.

 

[westernman]

New Bendytoy 36 - I thought bows went the other way these days?
View attachment 121317

Looks very tame compared to this Beneteau:-

 

[flaming]

I love sailors. They’re so predictable…

Here we are on YBW, and based solely on 1 render this boat has been dismissed as a death trap that you definitely shouldn’t take your family cruising in. Just in case you take a wave over an open stern in 50 knots or something. Because according to the experts here, every cruising boat must be capable of sailing comfortably in 50 knots. Otherwise it’s a death trap.

Meanwhile over on Anarchy, based on the same render, it’s been dismissed as bloated, far too cruisy and just dull. Because according to the experts there everything that has any claims to be a racing boat these days should plane in 12 knots and definitely shouldn’t have hull windows.

Never change folks, never change….

 

[Stemar]

I love sailors. They’re so predictable…

Never change folks, never change….

It goes without saying that the keel will fall off, and it's far too cruisery for the armchair racers on one hand, and on the other, your granddaughter and dog will fall out the back, and there aren't three double cabins and six heads, so it's completely useless and should be banned on health and safety grounds.

All I'm going to say on the subject is that it's not for me. But then, nor is a Rolls Royce or Aston Martin, even if I had the money. However, for a serious racer who has a decent, rather than fully sponsored, budget who wants something for round the cans plus a bit of offshore racing, I can definitely see the appeal.