Dragging of anchors

[noelex]

Why else would we use CQRs?

.

 

[Neeves]

Shipping Forecasts are available on LW radio (not in many secluded anchorages, though), but they're pretty rubbish.

Thank JD - I wondered if there had been any changes

Here forecasts are made on HF (and you can call up Marine Rescue on VHF if you are within range and have it repeated, anytime). You can receive on little 'transistor' type radios with HF facility, on a 4 hour schedule. they are also on the Bureau website, again if within range. Each 'sea-area' has a different schedule - all well published. Our forecasts are pretty reliable, accepting they are forecasts and timings might be a bit out - but if they say there is a front we get it - they track them for days. There is little excuse for anyone here to be exposed to anything over 40 knots there is usually plenty of time to move to somewhere where you will enjoy better sleep (with the exclusion of tropical storms - and then would not be insured anyway, so we would not be within 500nm).

As Norman said different hemisphere, different world.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Jonathan, Ah, if it's the actual truth you want about forecasts:

The Coast Guard broadcast an Inshore Forecast on VHF, every 3 hours. (Assuming they're not busy with an "Incident") It's split into areas slightly similar, and slightly smaller than the Shipping Forecast areas. It's for 24 hours, with a further 24 hour outlook.

There's the Shipping Forecast, that you already know about.

When and if you can get internet, generally through a phone signal, which sometimes can be found in quite surprising places, and often by going up a hill, there are lots of internet based forecasts, generally for a week or so.

How do I find one of these magic places where the wind will definitely be less than 40 knots? I know lots of good sheltered anchorages, but none out in the far west, that can guarantee that. Perfect shelter from the sea, yes, but from the wind, no.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Here forecasts are made on HF (and you can call up Marine Rescue on VHF if you are within range and have it repeated, anytime). You can receive on little 'transistor' type radios with HF facility, on a 4 hour schedule. they are also on the Bureau website, again if within range. Each 'sea-area' has a different schedule - all well published. Our forecasts are pretty reliable, accepting they are forecasts and timings might be a bit out - but if they say there is a front we get it - they track them for days. There is little excuse for anyone here to be exposed to anything over 40 knots there is usually plenty of time to move to somewhere where you will enjoy better sleep (with the exclusion of tropical storms - and then would not be insured anyway, so we would not be within 500nm).

We usually get reasonable warning of Big Nasty Stuff - although a couple of years ago I and a dozen others locked into the Crinan Canal to shelter from an extended F8/9 which turned out to be ten minutes of drizzle and half an hour of F4. The trouble with the shipping forecast on the West Coast of Scotland is that it is divided into such vast areas as to be almost useless. Think of an MRI scan reduced to one pixel per leg ...

 

[noelex]

There is little excuse for anyone here to be exposed to anything over 40 knots there is usually plenty of time to move to somewhere where you will enjoy better sleep

We need to remember that inexperienced sailors read these forums looking for advice on suitable anchoring equipment and techniques.

I don't agree with the message that seems to coming across in this thread that in “protected’ anchorages you will not experience strong wind, or that you can always rely on forecasts to avoid strong wind at anchor.

It would be nice if the above were true, but this has not been my experience.

 

[Neeves]

I think if you read the thread again you will find mention of bullets and williwaws, winds stronger than the average, winds whose direction is different to the average, see Post No 43 as one recent example.

But if anyone only reads part of a thread, any thread, they will miss information. I note many posts, not particularly in this thread (think of a comment from a member who said he would never sail in a yacht with a lifting keel and the yacht to which he seemed be referring had a fixed keel). We cannot reiterate every nuance and we, or I, commonly expect people to read - and if they do not understand - the whole basis of this forum is -ask.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

Why else would we use CQRs?

Real men wear yellow so'westers, yellow wellies and yellowed kecks, and go sailing in the rain, snow and howling gales while lesser snowflakes remain warm and dry, huddled in the pub. Real men use CQRs like their grandfathers....

 

[Uricanejack]

A week on the west coast with only one gale, was a pretty good week.

 

[Uricanejack]

Real men wear yellow so'westers, yellow wellies and yellowed kecks, and go sailing in the rain, snow and howling gales while lesser snowflakes remain warm and dry, huddled in the pub. Real men use CQRs like their forefathers....

Yellow wellies are for wee softies. Fra Kelvinside.
"Real Men" have black wellies with red tops folded down and a red calloused ring round your calf just above yer socks

 

[Kukri]

Real men wear yellow so'westers, yellow wellies and yellowed kecks, and go sailing in the rain, snow and howling gales while lesser snowflakes remain warm and dry, huddled in the pub. Real men use CQRs like their grandfathers....

On a point of information... my father started sailing in 1919 and the CQR was first reported on in the January 1938 edition of the “Yachting Monthly”, under the title “Something new in “Killicks”.

In my father’s day, real men didn’t have engines or electrickery on board, wore ganseys and seaboots, thought that flying an ensign in home waters was “tripperish”, despised those who called themselves “yachtsmen” and thought that leecloths were not needed because you got your head down on the lee berth and you needed all hands to tack.

I use CQRs because the advertising of new types of anchor means that I can buy a good second hand genuine CQR with little wear at the pivot for so little money that losing one is no longer a financial issue.

I am genuinely grateful to the Antipodean promoters of these gadgets.

 

[zoidberg]

I got turfed orf an RYA Committee 'back in the day' when I observed that it seemed half the RYA Council Members wore yellow wellies..... and the other half, green wellies.

P'rhaps it was my earlier aside to one of the Two Robins who ran the place, when commenting on the 2-3kg of paper bumf they sent us ahead of each quarterly Cruising Committee meeting in RYA Towers that it was understandable - just - that the Council paid no heed to the consensus opinions of 'The Committee' as they had previously determined policy, so rather a lot of time and money could be saved by just posting us the questions and the answers, on one side of A4, and we could all stay at home.....

I was taken aside and reminded that 'that's not how democratic consultation works in England'.....

''CellophaneJak's post reminded me of my first - and for a long time, my only - Designer foul-weather sailing jacket. Emblazoned across the shoulders it had the logo 'WIMPEY'....

As for.....

I use CQRs because the advertising of new types of anchor means that I can buy a good second hand genuine CQR with little wear at the pivot for so little money that losing one is no longer a financial issue. I am genuinely grateful to the Antipodean promoters of these gadgets.

..... a Minn after my own heart! Me, too. I've done the same with the fine pair of matching Fortressii which now adorn my boatshed. I've even persuaded that life-long collecter of marine trivia Sarabande to do much the same - although he's now branched out into derelict dinghies ( see 'For sale' ). O, the vagaries of fashion....!

 

[RupertW]

On a point of information... my father started sailing in 1919 and the CQR was first reported on in the January 1938 edition of the “Yachting Monthly”, under the title “Something new in “Killicks”.

In my father’s day, real men didn’t have engines or electrickery on board, wore ganseys and seaboots, thought that flying an ensign in home waters was “tripperish”, despised those who called themselves “yachtsmen” and thought that leecloths were not needed because you got your head down on the lee berth and you needed all hands to tack.

I use CQRs because the advertising of new types of anchor means that I can buy a good second hand genuine CQR with little wear at the pivot for so little money that losing one is no longer a financial issue.

I am genuinely grateful to the Antipodean promoters of these gadgets.

My father although a lot younger than yours liked basic sailing similar to the way you describe and I was glad both to have experienced it and to move on to newer ways of doing things (although I still don't have AIS or chartplotter as I haven't yet felt the desire, but wouldn't do without two heads, an ice maker and hot running water).

But I always found CQR worked fine for me on 2 boats, and Danforth on the third and my current Delta (I think) works perfectly on my current one. I will move to a new gen anchor probably only when I change boats again and acquire one. I genuinely don't understand all these people whose old style anchors drag especially those who sail exactly the same waters as me (English channel and northern Biscay in one boat, Eastern med in the other).

What are they doing that makes their CQRs or Delta's fail? Why do they replace their old anchors with new ones so much heavier that a lump of old iron would do the same job yet think it's the design of the new ones that work? Clearly new ones have better holding power but twice good enough is no better than good enough.

 

[Neeves]

You are correct - the antipodeans do seem to have stolen the mantle for promoting anchors, making the French look like amateurs and the Americans - pussy cats

But your post begs the question

How often do you lose one?


I have often pondered, not of you but in general - what keeps these (anchor) manufacturers in business. No-one admits to losing an anchor, in the same way few recall an anchor dragging - or was that sentence another attempt at humour

Jonathan

 

[Kukri]

You are correct - the antipodeans do seem to have stolen the mantle for promoting anchors, making the French look like amateurs and the Americans - pussy cats

But your post begs the question

How often do you lose one?


I have often pondered, not of you but in general - what keeps these (anchor) manufacturers in business. No-one admits to losing an anchor, in the same way few recall an anchor dragging - or was that sentence another attempt at humour

Jonathan

I have lost a Danforth to a ground chain. I have not yet lost a CQR. I use the Eric Hiscock loop of chain trick. I expect this would work with a new style anchor too.

 

[thinwater]

...But your post begs the question

How often do you lose one?....

Jonathan

Only once, because I forgot to attach it. A long story and lack of sleep was involved. My then-12 daughter wrote it up and sold the story to a sailing magazine. Gotta love kids.

 

[Seashoreman]

My worst experience of anchor drag was in the narrow Butley River. I was down below, singlehanded, when someone yelled from the bank that I was moving backwards. I had been anchored in the same spot for around a day and a half in very thick mud with a Bruce anchor. Tried to reset but nothing doing. Pulled anchor up and it was a solid ball of chain wrapped around the anchor. Totally jammed up. Cleated as best I could and headed of back to my mooring.

I guess the wind was shifting around in circles during the night and perhaps I had too much chain out?
Never seen this before and actually never want to. Otherwise it is consistently sticky mud round these parts and anchor sets very firmly.

 

[Stemar]

But your post begs the question

How often do you lose one?


I have often pondered, not of you but in general - what keeps these (anchor) manufacturers in business. No-one admits to losing an anchor, in the same way few recall an anchor dragging - or was that sentence another attempt at humour

Jonathan

I've lost one, a CQR, in 15 years of boat ownership. The engine died a few seconds after I cast off my mooring, with a good strong tide carrying me down on to some other boats. Lack of wind precluded any attempt to sail out of trouble, so the anchor went down PDQ and promptly hooked a trot chain. Efforts to use the ring of chain method of retrieval failed, as did my attempts to dive to free it. AFAIK, it's still there, along with a dozen metres or so of chain. I bought a second hand CQR, but never could get it to set, unlike the first one that never gave me any trouble, and I still don't know what the difference between the two was.

Cue loss of my current trusty Delta next time I go out...

 

[thinwater]

The problem with Bruce is that they often just set on the side, with one wing up. It seems to take the right bottom and right setting pull to get them to rotate right way up. I've seen this same fouling pattern with the Lewmar Claw.

Too much chain had nothing to do with it, since you certainly want to have some chain on the bottom.

 

[NormanS]

The problem with Bruce is that they often just set on the side, with one wing up. It seems to take the right bottom and right setting pull to get them to rotate right way up. I've seen this same fouling pattern with the Lewmar Claw.

Too much chain had nothing to do with it, since you certainly want to have some chain on the bottom.

My Bruce doesn't do that. The only naughty thing it very occasionally does, is to find a large stone, and clutch it to its bosom. A great anchor, but not fashionable in "new generation speak".

 

[Neeves]

The trouble with most old gen anchors is their name,CQR, Delta, Danforth and Bruce roll off the tongue so easily and we all know exactly what the words mean. Sadly there are many clones and for convenience everyone calls their CQR or Delta clone a CQR and Delta.

Small differences in design make a big difference in performance and I am sure that some distrust of old gen models is because the experience was from a clone, not a genuine model. Our Manson plough is a good example as the CQR, on which it is roughly modelled is a much better anchor (I have both in my workshop and have used both). The Manson model has a much shorter shank, than the original - and may have other differences. Manson also make a Ray, based on Bruce - again they are very different in actual design. Compound this and also consider that CQRs are almost indestructible - except the hinge wears - and the worn hinge results in a different fluke/shank angle.

Mention of Danforth is not that frequent here - but I see 'Danforths' which I assume are copies as I have never, ever, seen a genuine Danforth for sale, except in America and (oddly) in Japan. As I don't see genuine Danforths frequently I don't have much knowledge of their design, except for the overall concept (and they look like a Fortress) and how close the copies are to the original - I don't know.

The genuine old gen models obviously worked - because people still use them (and West Marine sell genuine Danforth) - and they would not be used if they had a very high frequency of dragging. Whether the 'new' iteration of CQR, sold by Lewmar, that is now 'fabricated' which I assume meanest is no longer drop forged is as god as the original don't know.

The new gen models are much more forgiving and reliable in terms of ease of setting (and once any anchor engages and starts to set you are almost 90% sure it will continue to set).

Old gen models might be more susceptible to veering (etc) of the parent yacht (than new gen anchors - and I suspect this might be the case as old gen tend not to set so deeply) but winds need to be strong for this to be a major concern - the concern is getting them to set initially (and the more you use them the more experience you have of setting characteristics). Change of tide, or large and rapid change of wind direction is an issue - because you are often not around to coax he old gen anchor to re-set (but even this cannot be a major issue as tidal change is a common occurrence, or it is where I live , yet people do not drag sufficiently frequently that it forces them to buy a new gen model.)

There are too many experienced yachtsmen here, like NormamS, who use old gen models in testing conditions with success and no doubts. We cannot write them off, the olden anchors, yet - the new gen anchor makers have a way to go before they conquer the world.

As an aside CQR, Danforth, Bruce (+ roll bar) and Delta as leisure anchors were refreshing designs in their day, as later was Spade (and Fortress' use of alloy) - all of which date from before the mid 90s. But each introduction brought new and novel ideas. If you look at the new gen anchors - there have been some tweaks - but the ghosts of the old designs are still in there.

And new gen anchors can still drag.

Jonathan