GHA
Well-known member
Who says so?
Can't recall anyone saying blanket everybody go bigger.
Do you have any links?
Silly thing to say if so.
36ft sailboat, anchoring not going well
- Thread starter wvansl
- Start date
Can't recall anyone saying blanket everybody go bigger.
Do you have any links?
Silly thing to say if so.
Tranona
Well-known member
You don't seem to have read all of the thread. Post 91 is an example - last sentence. There are others. When challenged no real justification is offered in support. This fellow is often cited youtube.com/watch?v=kMbYfoGFBLQ about 4 minutes in for a stream of misinformation (which shows how out of touch he is). Despite his rant against anchors provided by builders his 30kg Bruce is exactly the size of anchor of that type recommended for his size of boat. Both my new boats were supplied with the correct size anchor, chain and windlass even if the type supplied, particularly the first one) was not the best for the conditions where I anchored most..
Unsurprisingly all the developments in anchor design come from people who have moved away from the norm in terms of the demands they place on their anchors. The result is smaller, lighter better designed anchors that are more effective for a given size/weight.
Refueler
Well-known member
Here's my usual anchors ... my 25ft Motor sailer ...
The Holdfast Plough ... its about 12kg with all chain .... apart from hard bottom - seems to do OK for my use.
But the amazing one is the tiddler next to it .... that is the anchor I use in the river when fishing ... on my mobo's .... the Progress 400 (5m speedboat) and the Primor 24 ... Its only about 5kg ... but once it decides to 'bite' - it BITES !
When Baltic moored - bow to trees etc - I usually use a fishermans on my 25ft motor sailer - but I have considered using that 'tiddler' ... when you consider that it has two flukes to dig in instead of the single similar sized on the larger fishermans.
The Holdfast Plough ... its about 12kg with all chain .... apart from hard bottom - seems to do OK for my use.
But the amazing one is the tiddler next to it .... that is the anchor I use in the river when fishing ... on my mobo's .... the Progress 400 (5m speedboat) and the Primor 24 ... Its only about 5kg ... but once it decides to 'bite' - it BITES !
When Baltic moored - bow to trees etc - I usually use a fishermans on my 25ft motor sailer - but I have considered using that 'tiddler' ... when you consider that it has two flukes to dig in instead of the single similar sized on the larger fishermans.
Neeves
Well-known member
Post 91
Or Zing post 86
On our 38' cat we used a 8kg aluminium anchor, same physical size as the 15kg steel equivalent. We could comfortably have used a 25kg or 30kg anchor on the Maxwell windlass (the windlass was designed for the size of yacht). If the windlass had failed the 25/30kg anchor could have been lifted by hand (though the 6mm chain would have been a benefit) both Noelex and Zing suggest, 25kg would have been 'their' choice.
Jonathan
Or Zing post 86
On our 38' cat we used a 8kg aluminium anchor, same physical size as the 15kg steel equivalent. We could comfortably have used a 25kg or 30kg anchor on the Maxwell windlass (the windlass was designed for the size of yacht). If the windlass had failed the 25/30kg anchor could have been lifted by hand (though the 6mm chain would have been a benefit) both Noelex and Zing suggest, 25kg would have been 'their' choice.
Jonathan
doug748
Well-known member
A few may say get the biggest anchor you can handle, it's just a beloved aphorism, however the truth police are onto it.
Every case is different, for me as mentioned, I am recommended between 10 and 20 kg which is a world of choice. The size of the thing is generally limited by practical constraints anyways: fitting it to the stem, getting it inboard, shifting it at short notice in poor conditions or at night.
If the boat was fully loaded for bluewater and I had an electric winch, I might go for 15 or even (probably not) 20. But, as I am unlikely to be out in 30kts let alone 50 and I am fairly lightship, I am happy to settle for 10kg and save my back, I won't kid myself that it is a good as an anchor at the top end of the suggested weights.
.
Tranona
Well-known member
Pleased we are in agreement, although Still not sure where you get a recommendation of a 20kg Rocna for your boat.
noelex
Well-known member
I am not sure if "anchoring frequently" applied to your cruising, but your posts on YBW have highlighted the difficulties of managing with smaller anchors. Practices such as frequently changing your anchor design to best suit the substrate, not trusting a scope of less than 5:1 overnight, and deploying multiple anchors in winds of more than 25 knots are all posts you have made on previous anchor threads. These hassles should not be necessary.
To be fair, your preferred primary aluminium Spade anchor was at least one size below the manufacturer’s recomended size for your catamaran so these issues do not reflect what someone following the manufacturer’s recommendations would experience.
If you can comfortably manage an anchor 10kg heavier what do you have to lose? It would likely be cheaper than carrying the many primary anchors required when frequently switching anchors or to have the multiple back ups needed should you need to cut your anchors free when two anchors are deployed.
It would certainly be far less hassle. Try the KISS approach on your next yacht.
Last edited:
wvansl
New member
Thanks for so many advices, the last few days has gone better. I drop the anchor now and instead of going slowly back I just click it in reverse for a few seconds and then in neutral. So far the anchor has been holding everytime since I do that!
I will read more (not much time right now) but it seems to do the trick!
I will read more (not much time right now) but it seems to do the trick!
alahol2
Well-known member
Don't read any more, it will only confuse you...
westernman
Well-known member
If you want to know the best anchor to choose, then you could start of looking at this series of videos. All 154 of them.
You still won't know afterwards.
You still won't know afterwards.
Neeves
Well-known member
3 months every summer at anchor seems to be fairly frequent anchoring. Most anchorage we used were large and empty - why would you anchor with a 3:1 scope when you can anchor at 5:1. Why carry, in our case, 75m of rode and not use it - its of no value sitting in a locker.
You have some very bizarre ideas.
Our quiver of anchors was an alloy Spade, an alloy Excel and FX16 (as a kedge) and a FX37 specifically for squishy mud.
Basically we had 2 primary anchors and 2 Fortress for specific applications.
I think you will find that we were not alone in deploying two anchors in a fork, or 'V' - it is standard practice when you are anchored in a location where the wind cyclically veers.
The other reason for carrying 2 primaries is that people lose anchors - which is one reason anchor makers stay in business. You do look really stupid if you lose your only primary anchor and the nearest chandler is 300nm away. Early on in the ownership of Josepheline we lost an anchor. Clutch slipped, rode self deployed, retaining shackle on 'U' bolt failed with a bang - bitter end ran over the bow roller like a snake down a rabbit burrow Fortunately we had a second anchor and a small grapnel. We were able to anchor with the second anchor and then trawl in a rough pattern across the anchorage until we caught the rode, lifted the rode and retrieved the anchor. It would have been a nightmare if it had been windy.
So your recommendation is a 18kg aluminium primary. No anchor for squishy mud (so no anchoring in any of Australia's navigable rivers). No kedge should you want to orientate the yacht to swell or haul off a sand bank. No spare anchor in case you lose the single primary, no second anchor if the anchorage suffers a veering wind. Seems pretty unprofessional to me - but each to their own.
We learnt you need a second primary. Most of the anchorages on Tasmania's west coast are in squishy mud. Most of Australia's large and sheltered bays, Trial Bay for example, suffer from veering winds when a Southerly passes through. Carrying 4 anchors of total weight 32kg is not onerous and offers flexibility.
Apparently your rode has one anchor a 50kg Mantus M1 where Rocna would suggest a 33kg model. From your criticism your single anchor is overweight and you carry no other ground tackle. No kedge, no spare in case you lose an anchor, no anchor for squishy mud and you cannot use a 'V deployment as you have no other ground tackle. Bizarre.
Jonathan
Last edited:
noelex
Well-known member
Carrying a second primary anchor as a spare is sensible and most cruising boat do this, but if you regularly need to deploy two primary anchors you need to carry four if you want a spare should you need to cut away your anchors in strong wind.
In addition, if you regularly want to deploy two anchors you need two rodes (plus back ups). This will consist of at least partial chain and if cruising areas with abrasive substrates, long lengths of chain will be needed. Even if using lightweight 6mm chain, carrying merely an extra 12m of chain will weigh more than the 10kg that you have "saved" by fitting a small undersized anchor.
More concerning is the `added hassle of your complicated system necessary when choosing small anchors. Anytime the wind picks up unexpectedly I would be concerned that perhaps I should have deployed two anchors. Adding a second anchor in the middle of the night (why does strong wind always arrive at 2am?) is not my idea of fun and is not necessary if you choose ground tackle sensibly.
Last edited:
Neeves
Well-known member
You really don't understand, or more likely are just being obtuse.
We have 2 rodes, one of 75m of 6mm chain and another of 15m of 6mm chain and 40m of 12mm 3 ply nylon.
We use 2 anchors in a fork when there is a veering wind. If the wind is not veering we only need one anchor. If the wind is veering and a concern then the rodes are largely off the seabed (otherwise there would be no concern)
But some illustrations of anchor usage:
With a multihull it is quite possible to dry out. Sometimes you want to stay for multiple tides and don't want to move, when the tides return. Here we are secured with the primary anchor off the bow and an anchor off each transom, deployed from a dinghy. The transom rodes are dyneema. The 3 rodes are tight so there is minimum contact with the seabed and minimum movement of the rodes. Abrasion is not an issue. The location is known as the refuge for the Petrov's.
I've shown this picture quite recently. This is Refuge Cove on Wilsons Prom. The anchorage is tight but not being selfish we, and Blaze, have snuggled up together and have shore lines to trees (but in the absence of trees and rocks we could have used one or 2 of our anchors). We are using 2 anchors off the bow as some of the bullets were beam on and one line to shore. Blaze has 2 shore lines and one anchor (but could have used 3 anchors). Our lines and rode, as is Blaze, are taut to minimise movement - there is no abrasion. Refuge Cove is small when there is a storm warning it can be busy - so thinking ahead and snuggling up ensures you are not being selfish - but might need 3 anchors and appropriate rodes/shore lines.
You criticise our use of a 5:1 scope - why not use 5:1. The wind at the masthead is 35 knots, there is not another vessel in sight, and no-one ventured into this bay, Broughtom Islands on passage from Queensland to Sydney sitting our a head wind.
Similarly Bramble Cove, SW Tasmania - why not a 5:1 scope. There is not a another vessel in sight and as we have an 8 hour day climb it really seems sensible to assume the weather might deteriorate. We are anchored off the little beach. The long island, imaginatively called Breaksea Island is where we deploy our cray pot. We anchor Josepheline in the shelter of the island and take a dinghy passage through the island to deploy the pot, so we leave wherever we are anchored, and re anchor at Breaksea, deploy pot and go and re-anchor, later in the day we do the same thing to empty the pot, that's 4 anchoring each day. Bramble Cover is named after HMS Bramble, a survey support vessel to HMS Rattlesnake.
Beyond Breaksea the next land is Patagonia and to the left the next land is Antarctica (where Australia's weather comes from). Breaksea offers protection from wind off the Indian Ocean
The cray fishing is worth the effort
2 anchors are valuable in tidal rivers to minimise use of space, similar reason for use of shore lines to anchors in the beach - but maybe you don't think of others.
So you criticise but we carry 4 anchors and regularly use 3.
Your point is?
But I'm ignorant of how you can 'manage' a veering wind, one that comes consistently from different directions. Often people describe an anchorage and strong wind events and how bullets of wind come from unexpected directions. Perhaps you can educate me how it works with one anchor.
Jonathan
Last edited:
Tranona
Well-known member
The answer to that is simple. It is totally unnecessary.
My boat is 9.5m and 5.5tonnes. The recommended Rocna is 10kg and the chain either 6 or 8mm. If I go to 20kg, that is the size recommended for a boat 3 times the displacement and 4m longer needs 10mm chain and will not physically fit. Even the next size up (15kg) is difficult to justify as the criteria for the size of boat 2m longer and twice the displacement.
There is more than enough information available to determine the appropriate size of anchor for a particular boat and when to consider moving up a size without resorting to simplistic assertions such as yours.
doug748
Well-known member
The boat in question is 10 metres in round figures. It displaces over 5 tons. The suggested anchor size from Rocna is 15 - 20kg for a boat between 5 and 9 tons. Your choice depends both on the boat and your proposed use, as Green says:
"Consider the worst-case scenario for your anticipated Anchoring - this will dictate whether you go for the minimum required or the ocean cruising approach"
Of course if you don't believe that performance increases with size, you are free to choose the smallest you think you can get away with.
.
Neeves
Well-known member
Well, if it were me (which it is isn't) - I'd choose an aluminium 8kg Spade or Excel. We used either, only one or the other, for everyday anchoring for 20 years on a 38' x 7t cat.
Most people here have no need to consider the 'ocean cruising approach' and/or if they ask here - there is a problem, they should already know
You, yourself, mentions 'performance' - kgs are NOT a measure of performance - its design and performance and performance has been measured by hold for decades.
Instead of the aluminium versions I'd consider a 15kg Epsilon, Excel or Spade (I'm not keen on roll bars) - but if you like roll bars (and they fit the bow roller) then Viking and Rocna come into the mix, though the Viking should be a bit lighter. A 15kg anchor, Rocna, Spade, Excel, Epsilon has a hold, measured in a variety of tests, of 2,000kg - factorially (like 6 times) in excess of the likely tension in the rode of a 10m x 5t yacht.
Interestingly safety factors for chain (4:1). shackles (4:1 - 5:1) are not that different to the factor that, some, anchor makers appear to have chosen (6:1)
For the specific yacht I would not anchor without a snubber, min length 10m of 8/10mm 3 ply (or kermantle)
There is plenty of choice. Decisions might be made on cost, availability and fit.
Read this Oversize anchors – necessary? and if you want to argue consider you are arguing with an individual who has the highest respect of most on this forum.
Jonathan
Refueler
Well-known member
In all the years I've sailed ... I've never had call to use a 'snubber' other than a short rope to avoid chain grating on the stemhead.
Agreed I do not live aboard or cruise Carib' etc ... just an ordinary boater ...
Agreed I do not live aboard or cruise Carib' etc ... just an ordinary boater ...
westernman
Well-known member
I always use a length of stretchy nylon warp as a snubber.
It is very effective at reducing noise when at anchor in less than ideal conditions as well as reducing snatch loads on the anchor and on the boat.
noelex
Well-known member
If the largest anchor size you can comfortably manage is 10kg then we are both in agreement that this is the best choice for your boat
.If you can comfortably manage a 15kg model (this is not clear from your post) and you anchor frequently rather than using moorings or marinas, then in my view this would be a better choice. Rocna’s sizings are more conservative than most anchor manufacturers, but they are still based on a maximium wind strength of 50 knots, a moderate holding bottom and an "adequate" scope. Note: some manufacturers use as low as 30 knots when specifying their sizing table.
We anchor around 300 days a year and have done so for the last 17 years so we have experienced more harsh conditions than most. On occasions conditions have exceeded the criteria Rocna use for their sizing table. If you anchor frequently there is a risk that sooner or later you will do the same.
More importantly, in everyday anchoring the extra roughly 50% maximium holding power a 15kg anchor has over 10kg model of the same design will enable you to use shorter scopes and/or poorer substrates. Contrary to Jonathan’s assertion, this does not mean you have to always, or even commonly, use a shorter scope (or seek out poorer substrates) than you would with a 10kg anchor, but the ability to safely do so opens up anchoring opportunities that would otherwise be unavailable.
Around 50% greater maximum holding ability for 5kg or a 5% increase in your total ground tackle weight (assuming 60m of 8mm chain). This is a bargain in my view, but as always it your boat so it is your choice.
Last edited:
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
If you don't use the same anchor as me and use it exactly how i use it, you are all doing it wrong..........................