Independence | Upadates & Cruising

[kashurst]

That was a wild ride - I think I would have turned tail and waited for another day.
The damage report doesn't sound too bad - autopilot and genie knocked out. Hopefully nothing serious.
I got caught like that once and I only had to go @ 10 miles, lesson learned.

 

[Nigelpickin]

We looked at a Trader 535 before settling on the Fleming. To us, the main negative was the roll and the next to useless Naid (?) stabs. They seemed to make hardly any difference at all, and the slightest swell created a significant roll. Most uncomfy.

On a photo-shoot in the Solent ages ago, the Trader we were filming rolled so much it literally threw the flybridge helmsman off the seat to the other side of the bridge. No real damage to the skipper, but 'what if?'

We followed Richard’s, (Idamay), from Brittany to Porto and his ABT Trac Fin Stabilisers seemed to work a treat. Not sure how many boats have theses fitted but there were a few on the market a couple of years ago...

 

[IDAMAY]

We looked at a Trader 535 before settling on the Fleming. To us, the main negative was the roll and the next to useless Naid (?) stabs. They seemed to make hardly any difference at all, and the slightest swell created a significant roll. Most uncomfy.

On a photo-shoot in the Solent ages ago, the Trader we were filming rolled so much it literally threw the flybridge helmsman off the seat to the other side of the bridge. No real damage to the skipper, but 'what if?'

I can't speak for Naiad (?) stabs Piers but our Trader 54 (same hull as 535) with ABT Tracs pretty much refuses to roll in anything we care to throw at her. In the last two years she did more than 3000 miles to Porto and back and perhaps rolled half a dozen times when the stabs were caught out by a particularly steep quartering swell. Even then the roll was tolerable and didn't result in any real discomfort. Having said that we didn't go out in anything approaching the conditions shown in the photos - fortunately! I did proffer advice early on that I wouldn't buy a Trader without stabilisers. Come to think of it I wouldn't buy any displacement or semi displacement boat without tyhem.

 

[IDAMAY]

Crossed post, Nigel. Trader fitted numerous different makes of stabs over the years including Naiad, Trac and Wesmar to my knowledge but I would say that less than half of the 50+ foot boats were fitted with them.

 

[Piers]

I can't speak for Naiad (?) stabs Piers but our Trader 54 (same hull as 535) with ABT Tracs pretty much refuses to roll in anything we care to throw at her. In the last two years she did more than 3000 miles to Porto and back and perhaps rolled half a dozen times when the stabs were caught out by a particularly steep quartering swell. Even then the roll was tolerable and didn't result in any real discomfort. Having said that we didn't go out in anything approaching the conditions shown in the photos - fortunately! I did proffer advice early on that I wouldn't buy a Trader without stabilisers. Come to think of it I wouldn't buy any displacement or semi displacement boat without tyhem.

have checked with Lin, and yes, they were Naids on the Trader. Quite agree that the ABT Tracs are excellent - they're fitted to Play d'eau with very similar results to experience.

 

[SP2]

I doubt whether the RN runs a poll amongst crew as to whether it is a nice enough day to take the grey boats out for a wee sail. So, it was probably second nature to them to carry on regardless. Speculation up the thread as to whether one of them was a submariner: some of the pix off the E coast made me think that one of those would have been useful to have around. Anyway, I'm glad they've all emerged more or less in one piece.

Interesting point about having ex RN guys on board and their attitude to the job in hand. Many years ago we delivered a new to us boat from Newhaven to Calais and took along a friend's friend who was a professional skipper on the banana boat runs. The last thing he was concerned about was the weather. He calculated a course to steer, told us we'd be lucky to steer 20 degrees either side of it in the sea conditions and promptly went to sleep, waking only to advise when we were due a course change.

Robin's journey was not one I would have contemplated at this time of year without a good settled forecast. I expect the decisions to go and to carry on were based solely on the availability of the crew who were to provide the experience required for such a trip. Seems they were up to it and the boat made it but looking at the video it was really rolling and I imagine having the weight of the tender and crane where they are (although where else!) must be a considerable factor in that.

There will be different issues on the Broads - got to negotiate all those hire boats for a start.

 

[londonrascal]

Full updates, videos and more to come - getting back to work and normal life here give me a couple of days, also to catch up on the posts here

 

[MrB]

Full updates, videos and more to come - getting back to work and normal life here give me a couple of days, also to catch up on the posts here

Can you get Griff to sign in here and the other ex RN guy who navigated, would love to get their take on it and how it went and how the boat handled.

 

[NEB]

Can you get Griff to sign in here and the other ex RN guy who navigated, would love to get their take on it and how it went and how the boat handled.

"Griff" is already on here - http://www.ybw.com/forums/member.php?39379-BroadAmbition & http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?418245-Backwards-under-Wroxham-Bridge/page2

 

[londonrascal]

I need to begin going through what footage I have captured and that which was from others and sent to me of our passage but for now, I just wanted to say thank you for those who were following along here – via AIS and I am sorry that I was not able to spend time updating things as I went as much as I would have liked.

I have learnt three main things during this trip that I will take away with me:

The first is no matter how large your boat is compared to other peoples when you are moored next to them you are nothing but a speck as far as the sea is concerned.

The second is dealing with rough weather. I was never really fearful bad things were going to happen to us or the boat, but I just have not been in such rough conditions before, and I have now gained a respect of how the sea can change – almost as if in clearly defined sections going from one state to the next. Hour after hour of being thrown around and constantly having to hold on hearing and seeing the boat crashing into waves and water pouring over the fore deck and obliterating vision with green water took its toll. I just slowly shut myself down and ended up in the aft cabin a useless addition unable to think clearly, do anything and I have not experienced such a feeling before and it was that inability to be rational and focus that caused me to worry and head into a spiral. Why was everyone else doing ok but I was not? What must they be thinking of me now? What sort of person am I etc etc went over in my mind.

The third is how amazing it feels to leave a place behind and arrive somewhere new having got there by sea to moor in a Marina or a Harbour and have such a sense of pride and achievement. It really was shared by everyone onboard be it they had come for the day or were in it for the long haul, we bonded and there was a real team ethos. We would go out in the evenings for our meals and drinks, go over the day’s events, plan for the next, decide our routes go over the weather forecasts etc – there was no single person dictating it was a joint effort where decisions were made together and everyone had their point listened to.

So what was the Trader like? Well I can tell you now all the people who have said they need Stabilisers I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Yes, she rolls – and I suspect my Trader more than others with the additional weight up top but you get into this motion back and forth and back and forth and it really is not a disturbing motion to me o anyone on the boat that was with me.

There was a time coming round Portland Bill where two waves had been coming, hit and combined to a single large wave and struck us on our starboard beam and she went over, being a bad single wave we were all a bit pleased the boat came back but you never felt her ‘give in’ and later in the trip during the rough weather between Dover and Great Yarmouth this event was happening time and again every few minutes hour after hour with her heeling to 38 degrees and the moment the wave has crashed over her beam side, she would come right back up again. A some water found its way into the central bilge area through the hull air intakes but bilge pump took care of this I would guess the most that we saw down there was about 4”.

Issues/breakages:

The engines – well they have never missed a beat, I do have a coolant leak where the pipe that comes back into the header tank (having been off and round the hot water tank) is weeping. I need to have a new fitting and some PTFE tape but we decided to not touch this during our trip in case we made it worse.

I may have a hydraulic leak but I may not, so I have cleaned up what I believe to be hydraulic fluid and put fresh paper towel down to see if anything drips and from where – if it is coming from anywhere it may be a gasket where the take off pump off starboard gearbox comes from for the thrusters.

The Generator tripped because Trader put a 240v socket under a window (the only opening one) in the wheelhouse. The a great deal of water and spray from the sea was hitting this window and the effect was salt water entered the socket terminal, rather than the breaker tripping the sockets for the saloon it took out the main Generator breaker which lives behind the AC distribution board. A new socket is needed and once the break was reset all was fine once more – but this was only found after the tirp.

The Auto Helm stopped working about 40 minutes after departing Dover in the dark, so she was helmed manually thereinafter. Due to the fact the control junction box for the auto helm was put under a step by the sliding door on port side which also leaked sea water I am certain it was knocked out by salt water getting on the circuitry. This was always due to be updated anyway o a more modern system.

I had new straps to hold the RIB down prior to leaving and in Dover I moved the crane jib over the top of the RIB to help with taking weight off the port side and spreading it more evenly. The lifting eye was a good 5 or 6 inches above the Williams branded RIB cover, however the seas were so bad the RIB broke one of the straps, and was leaving the deck enough to have the crane lifting eye rip through the RIB cover – fortunately missing the steering wheel.

Other than two broken glasses that was the damage.

It was posted here about the fact I left the boat at Dover. I asked that we take shelter in Dover due to the worsening seas and night falling and us being unsure if we would make Ramsgate in time to still have depth to enter the Marina. I then had a long think about things and talked to my crew and decided if I was to end up in a state again back in my cabin what help would I bring? Also since we had a new crew member arriving – a sailor having been in the Fastnet race etc, he would be better suited than me (he lasted all of 45 minutes after leaving Dover before he had enough and was sea sick) I then got the train from Dover Priory to London, across to Liverpool Street, on a Norwich bound train and then a local service to Great Yarmouth.

The seas which were forecast to be a north easterly and calming after the Thames Estuary did actually became easterly’s and this made progress very rough, slow and hard on boat and crew. They decided to carry on though and I was in touch with Peel Ports updating them as to the ETA for the bridge lift at Yarmouth to get us into the Norfolk Broads. I was then told the last lift could take place At 16:15.

As the boat passed Southwold conditions were improving and 2,500RPM on they worked out they would make it for 16:00 – a real tense finish was on course. Long story short they made it, I got onboard, radioed Haven Bridge to be told ‘due to a technical fault they cannot open’. All that time, all the pushing, all the communication between us and they cannot pen the bridge!

I called the operations people and things began to happen when I offered to pay to have the bridge lifted – supervisor were consulted and managers the ‘technical fault’ seemed it might just need some money to help it go away but uh oh now the bridge lift crew were off shift – you could not make it up, I was close to offering to pay their overtime! I was assured that come 07:30 the following morning the bridge would lift for me.

My crew duly packed up and were collected by about 21:15 to be driven back to Doncaster. I was then left on the boat at Town House Quay in Great Yarmouth – and boy the tide sure races through here. I set my alarm for 04:00 which was then the tide would be turning and ebbing at its most so I could adjust fenders and lines – I never did get back to sleep, every 25 minutes we would drop another 8” the boat would move and I would react to place a fender a few inches left or right to keep the gel coat off the metal pilings.

My new crew of volunteers began to arrive at 07:00 and I was on the phone to confirm our bridge lift would indeed go ahead – but nobody answered. 07:30 came and went, no call, no bridge lift – silence. It was not the fact the bridge was not operational and manned, they were just ignoring my call because calls were being diverted to an EE mobile so everything I called so my number would come up. Charlie called, they answered straight away.

He enquired about a bridge lift for his boat – not saying that it was anything to do with me, and they said sure they could (no mention of a technical fault) and this could happen around 10:15. At about 10:00 with no calls made to me or any news I overhear on VHF a Pilot boat call up for a bridge lift and they are told such can happen in about fifteen minutes. I then get a call on VHF asking if I copied that and to follow the Pilot boat through. Sure enough around 10:15 the bridge lifted and the Pilot boat and us went through.

All was good – almost sorted I thought, slight issue at Reedham – the railway bridge has message ‘request to open’ we duly requested and were ignored so we moored up on the waiting pontoon. No sooner had we done so and without any warning the bridge began to open – this is not the first time VHF calls to Reedham have gone unanswered but it would have been nice to have some kind of communication. Through here we were back underway, arrived at Brundall and Brooms. Took on fuel 1,123 litres – which was from our last refuelling at Brighton to Brooms.

I then had a Broads Authority launch come round the bend in the river “what are your intentions on the rivers” he shouted over and came alongside. “You’ve been tracked at 7.5 MPH” was the next. Blimey cheers for the friendly welcome. So I told him my intentions and reminded him how unreliable AIS would have been to use as evidence as to speed (we had GPS onboard in MPH and did not exceed 6MPH – other than the 24 MPH over Breydon Water which has no speed limit).

I duly was handed the phone to talk to Broads Control to confirm I had insurance and needed a visitor toll. The bylaws state you have to get one at the first opportunity – but eager to show they can find a vassal and having had launches dispatched to come find me they were keen to get me tolled there and then, so £174.00 for 2 weeks handed over I was now ‘legally on the Broads’ although I cannot get a full Toll until I have a BSS certificate and I can’t keep getting visitor tolls so this should prove interesting when I am trying to get works done on the boat at short notice to comply with the Boat Safety Scheme requirements and also comply with the Broads Authority requirements.

Once this was done time to head to my berth – only the Marina have no record of me or the boat, despite taking my deposit and numerous emails between us confirming my arrival – I am now fuming on the phone – they find yes, I do have a mooring but uh oh another boat is on it. Rush about to move the boat and get me alongside and there, done sort finally with 1.4M of water under me I am in my new berth.

 

[markc]

Thanks for the post. Certainly an eventful trip! Shame you couldn't have waited for some better weather though as I'm sure you didn't win any sort of prize. Also, glad that nothing bad happened, but if it had you could have put RNLI and Coastguard lives at risk digging you out of the pickle. All's well that ends well I suppose.

 

[n.herring]

Well done on getting trip done, as you said great feeling arriving in a new port after a day at sea.
I know you say stabilizers are not really necessary and you get used to the motion but believe me they make a rough passage, especially when the sea is on the side, a lot more manageable.
I have spent many a happy/unhappy hour at Reedham waiting for the bridge, a different pace of life on the Broads nothing happens quickly unless of course it's collecting your money, Neil

 

[Piers]

I take my hat off to you, londonrascal. You are one tenacious and driven guy. Congratulations.

 

[Tradewinds]

I don't understand the sour grapes from some posters.

Well done londonrascal - a great adventure.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Great that crew arrived safely and the boat is not too badly scarred. I wonder if you would have bottled it in a stabilised boat? Not sure that given the way the the trip ended for you that your ‘agree to disagree’ stance with regards to fins is entirely qualified! But as Piers says, you are if nothing else, tenacious in your views, if not your sea legs

Well done and I hope that you will continue to post on this forum, it’s only a little while ago that you were being called out by some for Trolling us about an imaginary purchase...hopefully the mean boys will be more open minded from now on

 

[East Cardinal]

I don't understand the sour grapes from some posters.

Well done londonrascal - a great adventure.

Well said. I agree. A well planned and executed passage in testing conditions. With successful outcome.
Well done the Indy team.

 

[Nigelpickin]

I don't understand the sour grapes from some posters.

Well done londonrascal - a great adventure.

With respect, I think that congratulations with caveats are entirely different to sour grapes. The OP done good, but it’s ok to pat him on the back whilst shaking ones head

 

[BruceK]

With respect, I think that congratulations with caveats are entirely different to sour grapes. The OP done good, but it’s ok to pat him on the back whilst shaking ones head

Not sour grapes but mild disapproval. AFAIC there is a fine line between adventure and risk. How quickly could this have gone from hero to zero.

 

[londonrascal]

I did not think, neither did the more experienced members on board feel there was a danger to the boat or crew at any time. Yes things were (especially on the last leg leaving Dover and until the Harwich area) some rough seas to contend with, but I think it shows what a well oiled system was in place that as things might go down everyone remained focused and simply adjusted to the new realities.

The first thing to go was the auto helm, so manual steering was undertaken - with the helmsman doing an hour and then another taking over while they rested and so on. When the Generator went that was giving 240v to keep a laptop running which was acting as one of the three navigation backups went off, things simply moved over to to the paper charts which had been used throughout for that very eventuality taking place.

There was a number of places to have sought safe refuge should it be needed, but because everything was otherwise going perfectly ok and no further issues or systems went down, it was just a case of the 'soft mushy bits' (crew) inside the boat deciding to continue to be uncomfortable and the boat carrying on as she had been hour after hour.

The boat's design and handling though is simply first class. Nothing attached to her has come loose, broken off, cracked or bent. The port lights were never letting in any water (other than when someone forgot to close one properly meaning the forward cabin mattress and locker became quickly soaked through). I am sure very few would put their boats through such (who would want to) unless you needed to and since this was a delivery trip and not a holiday, you take less account of of crew comfort and focus on the boats ability and safety and then ask if the crew wish to continue or not. If they do and the boat is fine you press on. I was fortunate to have a keen bunch of guys who knew there stuff but I also learnt a great deal, in handling, navigation, approaches to ports and marinas, look out and communications right down to just how much fuel you use in a semi-displacement boat when you are pushing over 2,500RPM for several hours - e.g. Plymouth to Weymouth 839 Litres was greedily drunk by her engines.

Getting to grips with the old school systems though really showed where they are lacking in performance - the Plotter took an age to react to inputs and would occasionally go a bit 'out of kilter' between the route we had put in, the boats actual position and where the boat symbol on the Plotter was shown. Then an hour later it would all come together and route, boat and position would all match perfectly again.

The Radar was helpful especially at target tracking and closest point of approaches with commercial traffic around Dover and in the Solent - but even this was having issue when two targets were reasonably close to each other - AIS would show us, Radar would see often just one return - modern solid state radars with a larger open array would have shown the two targets easily but again it all worked. I can also see why touch screen only plotters might be fine for smooth seas, but to have a button to push and a wheel to rotate when you were in a rough chop really is a benefit.

As I had said here before all this is legacy gear is due to be ripped out and new kit put in - yep even if the boat is just going to spend 90% of life on a river system, it all helps improve the boat overall. Just as the new warm air heater does that was installed prior to our departure. I think I also need to get all new canopies of the sun deck area because they are past their best and a lot of the fixtures are not functioning and it is incredible hard to remove and replace the canvas panels due to this and broken zips etc I also need a new Williams tender cover after the crane lifting eye ripped the current one.

It was such a good experience though, really happy to have been part of this and learn what I have and pride in my boat that she really is a tough girl who can take a good punishment but shrug it off with very little needing to be attended to after a trip. Now she is 'home' I can take this season to attend to the cosmetic things and electronics etc so next year she will be perfect.

 

[MapisM]

I wonder if you would have bottled it in a stabilised boat?
Not sure that given the way the the trip ended for you that your ‘agree to disagree’ stance with regards to fins is entirely qualified!

Precisely what I was thinking.
Knowing that the boat doesn't capsize after heeling to 38 deg is all well and good, of course.
Otoh, I find it bizarre not to agree that it would be better avoid heeling to 38 deg, if given the choice.
I've had a couple of former professional fishermen onboard my previous stabilized boat, and both of them said that they would have loved to have such equipment on their workboats.
You don't see stabs on commercial trawlers because they are expensive (and also because fins risk to go in the way of the operations), not because they are useless.
But each to their own, of course! :encouragement: