Independence | Upadates & Cruising

[Portofino]

Exactly my point. Nothing wrong in heading out in heavy seas with experience in oneself and the boat, but I think it's wrong doing so with zero experience and zero knowledge of the boat when you don't NEED to. After all, how much more enjoyable for everyone on board if the journey had been made in benign conditions. Yes it was an adventure, but I still think the OP took too many risks and it could have ended in disaster. As the skipper of a boat the primary role is to mitigate the risks to the crew/passengers, the craft and other people. I'm not confident that these risks were mitigated on this occasion. At Dover, perhaps the right thing to do was feed everyone, put them up in a hotel then send them home and do it another day. But as I said, great adventure and I'm glad everyone was OK. (I too have made errors of judgement, especially in the thick of things... we all live (hopefully) and learn )

Del trips don,t exactly work like that .

One has to do the deed in a window of time .

This means the luxury , enjoyment and fun factor sometimes can,t co- incide .
Knowing that then a step of plans are drawn up , A B C D and so on .

Safety is never really comprised tbo , think of the kit onboard .

Aside Robin role was bank rolling it - he was i understand under illusion s of the enormity of the task , and the surrogate “ experience “ was in the team he organised.
The two RN guys - Griff in particular.

I was faced in a similar situation Naples to Cannes 400 miles as the crow flys .
No week end DIY ing getting to know it - just bought it and pointed it N
So what I did @ the offset lack of knowledge is negotiate a Del Skipper in the price .I said to the broker find me one ,I’ll fund his flight home etc .
Then bit like Robin took a experienced mate who has sailed the southern Ocean in , coast of Africa , Sailed to Australia,
.Had the boat yard lifted and checked over , cleaned n antifouled in my absence
.
Mate n I landed Thur Pm 4pm @ airport - broker took us to a supermarket to provision , then to the boat , introduced to the skipper a 25 y lad - moved boats all sizes round the Med .
He has arrived two days earlier ( lives on Sardinia - GF in Roma ) we had a indate 10 P liferaft , 2x ERIB and everything worked ,we even had spares - filters and a full tool kit , inc stuff like spare injectors and the tools to remove them in the kit .lad and my mate both handy with spanner’s so to speak .
5-30 am we were off .
We got heavey weather on the 2nd day crossing from Elba to Corsica , F 7 on the port beam .
We just disappeared in the troughs then rose up on the crests ,remember we were side on to the swell - beam sea .
Lad was competly relaxed - wet . My mate said this is nothing compared to the Southern Ocean .
Boat and us got soaked , took quite a beating in fact documented in a thread on here .
Nowts ever straight forward with a winter Del trip even in the Med end of Nov .

Any how this is Robins thread but there must be loads of Del trip epic sounding stories,it was well within the bounds of safety and common sense in my book .

You just got to do it ,was no walk in the park ,

 

[IDAMAY]

Robin,

You definitely don't have to justify yourself. You are the only participant in this thread that knows the actual boat, actual sea conditions and probably the only one who knows the full details of the forecasts on the days concerned. As the skipper it was your right and responsibility to decide whether or not to go. As it happened you had an experienced crew and it seems you consulted widely amongst them before deciding to press on. The boat and crew completed the passages with minimal incident and no recourse to outside assistance.

All the comments are otherwise pure expressions of opinion. Inevitably some of us would have made different decisions in the circumstances but none of us were there.

Well done to all of you and to Independence.

 

[Portofino]

Portofino I have to react here,

I think you either have no experience on a stabbed boat, or you are just unfair with your statement,

referring to the genny failure, remember that my stabs run on 24V DC to 230VAC invertors
and many hydraulic stabs run on a pump driven by a PTO on the main !

Only experience is Ferries.
Every boat ( a lot sail/ motor ) I’ve been on has been without , we managed ,if they are that good why not standard fit ?

Where’s the demand .I mean REAL demand , folks bribing each other and a black market in finstabs , you will be tells us fin stab kits are next bit coin boom next
It’s a cottage industry- fin stabs in liesure boats under 75 ft

I realise you love your fins which is nice to know ,and have built in extra capacity to run them inverter s etc - but in heavey weather I would think it’s best not to rely on a potential batt draining scenario in case the ER gets an unplanned soaking .An alternator gets an unplanned seawater wash etc .

Numero uni is to protect the running engines —- in heavy weather !

I don,t think ownership of the subject matter in question ( in this case fin stabs ) disqualifies comment .
Helicopter s - hmm , never owned one
Compared to a fixed wing which can glide with an engine failure/ fuel issue - I have concluded that if the main engine stops you have about a zero chance of survival- cos it will plumit vertically - media is full of copter fatalities confirming what I have figured out without owning one - howzat folks

Like massage seats on the tick box list ,it’s nice to be offered a choice.
Perhaps air suspension is a better apology , it’s certainly superior ride / comfort wise , but I,am equally happy jumping in a metal sprung car and would not try to convince a guy who did not tick that box that he,s made a mistake .
As only a FEW cars are air sprung ,as are a Few boats are fin stabs .

Robin never asked for them
Robin never said words to the effect “ oh I wish we had finstabs - silly me “
Robin never said / infered in the buying process “ it hasn’t,t got stabs - damm ! “

Of course a boat with fin stabs handles better than on without and a car with massage seats / air suspension is better than without .
But are they essential ——- what does the markets say ?

 

[Nigelpickin]

I wonder if you would have bottled it in a stabilised boat? Not sure that given the way the the trip ended for you that your ‘agree to disagree’ stance with regards to fins is entirely qualified! But as Piers says, you are if nothing else, tenacious in your views, if not your sea legs

Yay we are back to this topic

So, I did not do any bottling in fact the situation at night off Dover was a sea state bang on the nose - stabilizers would have had little to no effect - it was not the motion of the boat I had issue with, never during the entire trip was I sea sick either - but I was concerned that with time running out of time for safe entry into Ramsgate (due to the tide and depth) it was best to head for Dover.

I also have always been a very calm sort of person, when others get in a panic I am not one to loose it so I was really taken aback and shocked how I was dealing with things - I was fine and then I was not. It was like a switch had gone off. I was not 'frozen with fear' just slowly shut down and became a lemon unable to even hold my phone to send texts and concentrate and just looked out the window in the aft cabin - most horrible situation to be in as I seemed to not be in control of me!

As ever, I was open and honest about this and it got shared on this Forum too which is fine. Naturally most would not need to explain in such detail as I, but then most who get in a spot of bother or who do things like sort of trip this share the bare necessities not all the details and emotions they were feeling at the time - I wonder how much gets left out of cruise reports on YBWtv (You Tube) from their videos, and I have never seen any of the boats tested in real testing sea conditions - you don't see them holding on while cupboards fly open and drawers eject cutlery while you are on hands and knees with the Duct tape trying to keep them closed again but imagine if they did, how many prospective new buyers would be put off - boating is meant to be about enjoyment and fun, not a job where come what may you are going out as those offshore support vessels do.

So for the record even if you said here are some stabilizers they are free just get the boat lifted and put them in, I would decline. I have been at sea on a River Boat down to Ipswich and back, and trust me she rolls all over the shop, now I have this Trader and she too rolls - I just find that is my experience and expectation of how boat is - I am ok with that, some are not - Shiela my partner could not stand it and was so thankful to get into Brighton an that was our calmest day!

I know what I would rather spend money on - but we are all different, and use our boats for our own reasons and have our own feelings about things and how they should be - few would go in the deep end as I have with a boat of this size and type as their first foray into sea boating but I am really pleased I did.

Robin, I know that I should make like Queen Elsa and Let It Go but didn’t you bottle it, just a bit?

‘The second is dealing with rough weather. I was never really fearful bad things were going to happen to us or the boat, but I just have not been in such rough conditions before, and I have now gained a respect of how the sea can change – almost as if in clearly defined sections going from one state to the next. Hour after hour of being thrown around and constantly having to hold on hearing and seeing the boat crashing into waves and water pouring over the fore deck and obliterating vision with green water took its toll. I just slowly shut myself down and ended up in the aft cabin a useless addition unable to think clearly, do anything and I have not experienced such a feeling before and it was that inability to be rational and focus that caused me to worry and head into a spiral. Why was everyone else doing ok but I was not? What must they be thinking of me now? What sort of person am I etc etc went over in my mind.

I’m trying to rationalise why it even matters to me that your reports are at odds with reality and the only thing that I can think of is that maybe I’m worried that some poor soul will take your after the fact bravado, hubris and mild case of denial as reasonable testimony - which it isn’t in my mind. You got away with it, if my kid ran through traffic without getting hit I wouldn’t want him telling his mates that it was a good decision, for worry that they might try the same....

I’d kinda like it if your story was more wow, ‘that was close, here’s what I’d do differently next time’. It’s not for me to judge, as my dear and esteemed friend Richard points out, it’s your story - it just that it’s hitting a nerve with me and I’m trying to work out why. Probably just me tho’....

 

[jrudge]

Nigel. I can see your point of view

Would I do it in an unknown boat in the middle of winter. No. I told pete the same thing and that was October In The med !

The sole saving grace in my view were the ex navy crew. If you think of it as a delivery trip by delivery skippers where the owner tagged along it is not quite so bad!

They came a long long way in a short time.

Personally I would have waited for nicer weather but I like flat seas that’s why I am in Mallorca !

 

[Nigelpickin]

Nigel. I can see your point of view

Would I do it in an unknown boat in the middle of winter. No. I told pete the same thing and that was October In The med !

The sole saving grace in my view were the ex navy crew. If you think of it as a delivery trip by delivery skippers where the owner tagged along it is not quite so bad!

They came a long long way in a short time.

Personally I would have waited for nicer weather but I like flat seas that’s why I am in Mallorca !

Jeremy, writing in my capacity as an ex Submariner, (O boats), it’s the RN crew that scare me the most!
And Porto, having crossed the Atlantic 8 times, 4 in a boat without stabs, (or keel ), and 4 times in a liner with stabilisers, I can give first hand feedback that they are not comparable to massage seats....

 

[MrB]

Wouldn't it be nice if Robin took the boat back to where Griff delivered it too (Before the bridge) and let him helm her to it's new home.....it sounded like he felt robbed after doing the hard bit. It would also be nice to get his take on the trip and not second hand so to speak. Robin said a TransAt skipper joined the Crew in Dover but quit after half an hour so conditions must have been bad from the off so i guess that's why the last leg was questionable.

I would love to read about the trip from the RN lads POV, they did it after all.

 

[A1Sailor]

I take my hat off to you, londonrascal. You are one tenacious and driven guy. Congratulations.

+1. I've only skim read the thread, having come across it last night, but Robin's decision to go into Dover seems a wise and prudent one.
The decision to step down from the final leg seemed a bit strange at first - but having read his reasoning and seen the clips on the Norfolk Broads forum is fully understandable! It is often harder to make a decision not to do something rather than to carry on regardless.
Well done Skipper! Hope you enjoy your new boat.

 

[MrB]

+1. I've only skim read the thread, having come across it last night, but Robin's decision to go into Dover seems a wise and prudent one.
The decision to step down from the final leg seemed a bit strange at first - but having read his reasoning and seen the clips on the Norfolk Broads forum is fully understandable! It is often harder to make a decision not to do something rather than to carry on regardless.
Well done Skipper! Hope you enjoy your new boat.

I concur :encouragement:

 

[Boat2016]

Jeremy, writing in my capacity as an ex Submariner, (O boats), it’s the RN crew that scare me the most!
And Porto, having crossed the Atlantic 8 times, 4 in a boat without stabs, (or keel ), and 4 times in a liner with stabilisers, I can give first hand feedback that they are not comparable to massage seats....

That’s also what scares me, what those RN guys are used to and this delivery are two completely different things, I would suspect most professional delivery skippers would have declined going to sea in those conditions, pleased to hear it all went well but could have been a lot worse!

 

[MapisM]

@MapisM

The video and rolling I suspect to you would be to uncomfy to have had for many hours - your choice would be to have a boat that naturally rolled less, buy a boat that had stabilizers fitted or if you loved the boat enough and wished to have them retro fitted. For me in these sort of conditions, you just brace yourself or hold on to one of the many handrails. It is as simple as that, I like the motion and feel of the boat twist and turn and move and roll but as I said Shiela my partner absolutely cannot stand it and made her feel very unwell to boot. Everyone is different but I still would decline having them even if free if that is okay with everyone.

R, don't get me wrong.
As I previously said, nothing of what I'm writing is meant to comment your choices.
They are YOUR choices, and as such respectable, regardless of what I (or anyone else, for that matter) would have done in your boots.

But your position on this stabilization matter is childish to say the least.
First of all, rest assured that I wasn't thinking to pay a stabs installation on your boat, so no objections at all from my part if you decline an offer that doesn't exist.
Your comments above raise a completely different point, though.
Cruising in a boat which keeps rolling is not uncomfortable to me, Piers, BartW, or anyone else here in the asylum who appreciate stabilized boats. It's uncomfy to humans!
And I suspect it would be even to fishes, if it weren't that they live inside the water, rather than on its surface.
Saying that you LIKE bracing yourself to handrails is ridiculous, because nobody like that, not even folks who spend most of their life at sea.
You can STAND that, as many others do. And even then, recent history proves that you can stand that only up to a point.
Which is perfectly normal, mind: it's misleading to say that Shiela can't stand the boat motion in a rough sea while you can (not to mention like it!).
The difference between your goodself and your partner, or your delivery crew, or anyone else, is only in the degree of TOLERANCE of the boat motion, nothing else.
I plain refuse to believe that even the most experienced coxswains really LIKE to go out there in appalling sea conditions.
They can stand that, because that's what it takes to accomplish their mission - and they deserve utmost respect for that.
But fools, I don't think they are.
If they would just like rough motion, they could get it riding a mechanical bull, without putting their own lives at stake.

 

[MrB]

That’s also what scares me, what those RN guys are used to and this delivery are two completely different things, I would suspect most professional delivery skippers would have declined going to sea in those conditions, pleased to hear it all went well but could have been a lot worse!

That's why i want to hear about it first hand from the RN guys....I have a feeling they had a ball when everyone else backed out. Robin funded it but didn't do it, so to me his second hand blog means nothing compared to those that actually did the trip. I do not however judge Robin on his decision to leave the boat to those that did do it, far from it, and i think he made the right decision to get off the boat as they would have worried about him and not the task in hand. I applaud him for that.:encouragement:

 

[MrB]

R, don't get me wrong.
As I previously said, nothing of what I'm writing is meant to comment your choices.
They are YOUR choices, and as such respectable, regardless of what I (or anyone else, for that matter) would have done in your boots.

But your position on this stabilization matter is childish to say the least.
First of all, rest assured that I wasn't thinking to pay a stabs installation on your boat, so no objections at all from my part if you decline an offer that doesn't exist.
Your comments above raise a completely different point, though.
Cruising in a boat which keeps rolling is not uncomfortable to me, Piers, BartW, or anyone else here in the asylum who appreciate stabilized boats. It's uncomfy to humans!
And I suspect it would be even to fishes, if it weren't that they live inside the water, rather than on its surface.
Saying that you LIKE bracing yourself to handrails is ridiculous, because nobody like that, not even folks who spend most of their life at sea.
You can STAND that, as many others do. And even then, recent history proves that you can stand that only up to a point.
Which is perfectly normal, mind: it's misleading to say that Shiela can't stand the boat motion in a rough sea while you can (not to mention like it!).
The difference between your goodself and your partner, or your delivery crew, or anyone else, is only in the degree of TOLERANCE of the boat motion, nothing else.
I plain refuse to believe that even the most experienced coxswains really LIKE to go out there in appalling sea conditions.
They can stand that, because that's what it takes to accomplish their mission - and they deserve utmost respect for that.
But fools, I don't think they are.
If they would just like rough motion, they could get it riding a mechanical bull, without putting their own lives at stake.

:encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

if they are that good why not standard fit ?
...
Perhaps air suspension is a better apology

LOL, apology? You meant analogy, I suppose... Talk about Freudian slip!

Anyway, I'm posting this just to answer your question, not because I wish to sell stabilizers or the idea of them to anyone.
In fact, I'm actually losing the will to live, with this done-to-death matter...

But the answer to your question about why they are not standard fit is very simple: they are, actually!
Let me put it this way: can you name one single builder of proper long range mobos who doesn't include fin stabs as standard, nowadays?
Me, I can't honestly think of any.
Of course, this doesn't mean that your Itama or my DP, both non-stabilized, are bad boats. But ocean going passagemakers, they surely aren't.

PS: btw, choppers don't necessarily "plumit vertically" - just google for autorotation.
Given enough altitude and a decent pilot, after a power loss they can land more safely than a plane, because they only need as much space as their footprint. :encouragement:

 

[MrB]

PS: btw, choppers don't necessarily "plumit vertically" - just google for autorotation.
Given enough altitude and a decent pilot, after a power loss they can land more safely than a plane, because they only need as much space as their footprint. :encouragement:

Most will land and take off again 6ft and land again under auto-rotation. I won't go into the plane v helo thing lol :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Most will land and take off again 6ft and land again under auto-rotation. I won't go into the plane v helo thing lol

Point taken, but it was just a "btw"... I didn't go there first!

 

[MrB]

Point taken, but it was just a "btw"... I didn't go there first!

I just agreed with you, no point made lol. :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Ops, I thought you meant that also autorotation landing is no walk in the park - which is undeniable.
Still, between that and a jetliner with Denzel Washington in command, hard to tell which is the rock and which is the hard place...!

 

[MrB]

Ops, I thought you meant that also autorotation landing is no walk in the park - which is undeniable.
Still, between that and a jetliner with Denzel Washington in command, hard to tell which is the rock and which is the hard place...!

Auto-rotation landing for a helo and "engine out" landing for a plane are both easy enough provided you can find some where to land lol.

 

[Piers]

Auto-rotation landing for a helo and "engine out" landing for a plane are both easy enough provided you can find some where to land lol.

For the sake of quick thread drift, the only reason I used to fly planes with 4 engines, is because there weren't any with 5....