Independence | Upadates & Cruising

[MapisM]

have checked with Lin, and yes, they were Naids on the Trader. Quite agree that the ABT Tracs are excellent - they're fitted to Play d'eau with very similar results to experience.

I've seen two T575, both built in the mid noughties and factory equipped with Wesmar stabs, and I also seatrialed one of them.
And you know what? While obviously the Wesmars did make a big difference (as in when turned on vs. centered), I had a distinct feeling that they weren't as effective as the 1995 vintage Naiads of my old lady.
I suppose it ain't just a matter of brand, but also (mostly?) of how properly sized/installed/calibrated the system is on a specific hull.

PS: Apropos, are you still considering to fit larger fins on Pd'E?

 

[Piers]

PS: Apropos, are you still considering to fit larger fins on Pd'E?

We had an estimate for fitting the larger fins. Only a change to the fin size, nothing else, was quoted as:

28256 – 7.5/220 Fin - £4706.16 each (x 2 £9412.32)
28259 – 7.5 Winglet - £634.74 each (x 2 £1269.48)

Plus VAT & Import Duties where applicable, plus delivery and shipping from the USA.

A huge amount for just for some new GRP. So the answer was no.

 

[BartW]

I've had a couple of former professional fishermen onboard my previous stabilized boat, and both of them said that they would have loved to have such equipment on their workboats.
You don't see stabs on commercial trawlers because they are expensive (and also because fins risk to go in the way of the operations), not because they are useless.

last week in the yard in S.M. d Castellabate, (Salerno region)
they were fixing sort of long steel fixed fin / plate on each side of the hull of a old wooden trawler,
which I think exactly confirms your statement above,
I'll send a pic next week if that trawler is still there.

 

[londonrascal]

I wonder if you would have bottled it in a stabilised boat? Not sure that given the way the the trip ended for you that your ‘agree to disagree’ stance with regards to fins is entirely qualified! But as Piers says, you are if nothing else, tenacious in your views, if not your sea legs

Yay we are back to this topic

So, I did not do any bottling in fact the situation at night off Dover was a sea state bang on the nose - stabilizers would have had little to no effect - it was not the motion of the boat I had issue with, never during the entire trip was I sea sick either - but I was concerned that with time running out of time for safe entry into Ramsgate (due to the tide and depth) it was best to head for Dover.

I also have always been a very calm sort of person, when others get in a panic I am not one to loose it so I was really taken aback and shocked how I was dealing with things - I was fine and then I was not. It was like a switch had gone off. I was not 'frozen with fear' just slowly shut down and became a lemon unable to even hold my phone to send texts and concentrate and just looked out the window in the aft cabin - most horrible situation to be in as I seemed to not be in control of me!

As ever, I was open and honest about this and it got shared on this Forum too which is fine. Naturally most would not need to explain in such detail as I, but then most who get in a spot of bother or who do things like sort of trip this share the bare necessities not all the details and emotions they were feeling at the time - I wonder how much gets left out of cruise reports on YBWtv (You Tube) from their videos, and I have never seen any of the boats tested in real testing sea conditions - you don't see them holding on while cupboards fly open and drawers eject cutlery while you are on hands and knees with the Duct tape trying to keep them closed again but imagine if they did, how many prospective new buyers would be put off - boating is meant to be about enjoyment and fun, not a job where come what may you are going out as those offshore support vessels do.

So for the record even if you said here are some stabilizers they are free just get the boat lifted and put them in, I would decline. I have been at sea on a River Boat down to Ipswich and back, and trust me she rolls all over the shop, now I have this Trader and she too rolls - I just find that is my experience and expectation of how boat is - I am ok with that, some are not - Shiela my partner could not stand it and was so thankful to get into Brighton an that was our calmest day!

I know what I would rather spend money on - but we are all different, and use our boats for our own reasons and have our own feelings about things and how they should be - few would go in the deep end as I have with a boat of this size and type as their first foray into sea boating but I am really pleased I did.

 

[MapisM]

We had an estimate for fitting the larger fins. Only a change to the fin size, nothing else, was quoted as:

28256 – 7.5/220 Fin - £4706.16 each (x 2 £9412.32)
28259 – 7.5 Winglet - £634.74 each (x 2 £1269.48)

Plus VAT & Import Duties where applicable, plus delivery and shipping from the USA.

A huge amount for just for some new GRP. So the answer was no.

Sensible choice.
If as I recall with the current fins you reach their limit very rarely (and even then, their straightening effect is surely still pretty good vs. having no stabs at all), I also would never fork out that much money.
Btw, it's debatable to have suggested from their part to fit also the winglets, which only make sense in zero speed stabs.
Or was that quotation included in a larger proposal for fitting all the other STAR components (which are no doubt even more expensive)?

 

[Piers]

Sensible choice.
If as I recall with the current fins you reach their limit very rarely (and even then, their straightening effect is surely still pretty good vs. having no stabs at all), I also would never fork out that much money.
Btw, it's debatable to have suggested from their part to fit also the winglets, which only make sense in zero speed stabs.
Or was that quotation included in a larger proposal for fitting all the other STAR components (which are no doubt even more expensive)?

No STAR at all. Just changing the exiting fins for the next size up. If I had the drawings I'd have had them made locally!

 

[MapisM]

So for the record even if you said here are some stabilizers they are free just get the boat lifted and put them in, I would decline.
...
I know what I would rather spend money on

Now, that's a proper oxymoron, if I've ever seen one.
I can understand and accept your second statement above, but the first just doesn't make any sense.

 

[MapisM]

If I had the drawings I'd have had them made locally!

Your wish is my command.
I'm 60% sure to have some cad drawings of ABT fins in my files.
Can't check that today 'cause I'm not at my desk, but will revert asap.

 

[Piers]

Your wish is my command.
I'm 60% sure to have some cad drawings of ABT fins in my files.
Can't check that today 'cause I'm not at my desk, but will revert asap.

Now that would be really excellent. Thanks so much for the offer. So appreciated.

 

[BruceK]

You are rather good at this self PR business, so long as you are not deluding yourself I'm fine with it. I'm also fine with what and how you choose to go about your business, however unorthodox. That's your story. You dont need to justify that to anybody. However as owner and organiser despite an lack of experience you do hold responsibility. And mate you drove an exercise drawn in by your own PR and bailed. This isn't the nineties, this effeminate baring of soul and emotion is passé. The way I'm reading the saga your hubris got in the way and took a dump on you. Welcome to the club, we've all been there :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

last week in the yard in S.M. d Castellabate, (Salerno region)
they were fixing sort of long steel fixed fin / plate on each side of the hull of a old wooden trawler,
which I think exactly confirms your statement above,
I'll send a pic next week if that trawler is still there.

Now, why am I not surprised? That's indeed a very popular choice among fishermen, exactly for the reasons I previously mentioned:
1) it's inexpensive
2) those plates aren't as prone to tangle ropes and nets as fins rolling around their axis.
Not as effective as active fins of course, but better than nothing!

Yes please, post pics if you can, I for one am interested.
Oh, and also pics of BA refitting, of course! :encouragement:

 

[londonrascal]

This was footage taken of her arrival into Great Yarmouth - not my taking by the way:

 

[Portofino]

Well done Robin , the boats proved itself,
I thought you went about things in logical sensible way - whole process and thank you for sharing - no - bit more like —- honestly bearing your soul ,that’s very brave of you .

Re heavey weather , just takes time ,sea time for the sea legs to develop.Keeping mentally busy and eyes on the horizon helps in future .
You are not born with “ sea legs “ you train them with time .

You have already figured out stabs are a waste of time for your intended usage .
There’s a hand full on here flogging them to death at every opportunity Nice like massage seats in a car but most can and do live without .

Certainly not any near essential or a necessity even on a tippy boat like yours .

I,am in your camp but with an added luxuary of being able to get up and plane even at a lowly 20 knots in heavey weather ride stiffens up .

To the pro stab brigade- his geny kept tripping due to a wet socket —— fat lot of good £100k,s worth of stabs fitted in Plymouth would have been !

I had a look @ the NBA blog , I couldn,t stop reading —- what came across was what a great friendly , bunch of folks you have got there .A completely different tone to some of the post on this forum - same topic !!

Congratulations btw

 

[londonrascal]

Portofino - Thank you

Yes the NBN are a good bunch of people, it was two of those members who came out to help me crew to Brundall, but had offers from all over willing to get in a car and drive hundreds of miles to lend a hand. While focused on the Broads, anyone is welcome boaters or non-boaters, fresh water or salt and I like the friendly attitude there. I also like the banter and debates we have here.

 

[markc]

Not sour grapes but mild disapproval. AFAIC there is a fine line between adventure and risk. How quickly could this have gone from hero to zero.

Exactly my point. Nothing wrong in heading out in heavy seas with experience in oneself and the boat, but I think it's wrong doing so with zero experience and zero knowledge of the boat when you don't NEED to. After all, how much more enjoyable for everyone on board if the journey had been made in benign conditions. Yes it was an adventure, but I still think the OP took too many risks and it could have ended in disaster. As the skipper of a boat the primary role is to mitigate the risks to the crew/passengers, the craft and other people. I'm not confident that these risks were mitigated on this occasion. At Dover, perhaps the right thing to do was feed everyone, put them up in a hotel then send them home and do it another day. But as I said, great adventure and I'm glad everyone was OK. (I too have made errors of judgement, especially in the thick of things... we all live (hopefully) and learn )

 

[MapisM]

You have already figured out stabs are a waste of time for your intended usage.
There’s a hand full on here flogging them to death at every opportunity Nice like massage seats in a car but most can and do live without.

L, as you know I went for a non-stabilized boat after 17 years with a stabilized one, so it's very obvious that I also think it's possible to live without stabs.
But there's a difference between that and saying that they are useless to the point of not wishing to have them even if FoC.

I suppose you didn't see the last video that londonrascal posted just one minute before your post.
Now, you can trust me if I tell you that the difference in the behavior of the same boat with fin stabs would have been like day and night.
And as I understand, the crew had to deal with much worse conditions, at times.

Bottom line:
- are stabs essential to keep the boat afloat in rough seas, and are they necessary for a river boat? Heck, 'course not.
- is their usefulness when cruising offshore comparable to massage seats in a car? C'mon, that's beyond a joke.

PS: Mind, this has nothing to see with supporting or criticizing Robin choices. Free will is a great thing.
I'm just commenting a technical point - and arguably a very minor one, in the context of this thread.

 

[londonrascal]

@Markc

Your opinion, these were friends of mine - we took the choice to stop at Dover, we went to the pub and had a chat picked up a new crew member and I decided to not go on - I also said if it was me on my own the boat would be left here but if they are happy to continue then they may do so and they were happy to continue so they did so.

I did 'need' to do this because the boat needed to be in Norfolk, it has been in Plymouth since November - this was a window of opportunity there all crew had the time to help, and the weather was a lot better than it had been previously leading up to the date of departure.

I felt that a great deal of planning and 'mitigation' was taken into account with nightly briefings amongst us all and planning for the next day - I was part of the route overview, putting data into the Plotter and liaising with Howard who was our Engineer and Navigation man. There was never any pressure on anyone at any point to go on regardless I cannot dictate to people what to do only remind them they are under no obligation if they do not wish to.

I wonder, do I really need to sit here and explain things after the event as if I have to justify them?

@MapisM

The video and rolling I suspect to you would be to uncomfy to have had for many hours - your choice would be to have a boat that naturally rolled less, buy a boat that had stabilizers fitted or if you loved the boat enough and wished to have them retro fitted. For me in these sort of conditions, you just brace yourself or hold on to one of the many handrails. It is as simple as that, I like the motion and feel of the boat twist and turn and move and roll but as I said Shiela my partner absolutely cannot stand it and made her feel very unwell to boot. Everyone is different but I still would decline having them even if free if that is okay with everyone.

 

[markc]

I wonder, do I really need to sit here and explain things after the event as if I have to justify them?

No of course I don't expect you to justify yourself. You did what you felt right, based on your own boating experience. I just don't happen to agree it was the right thing, based on my boating experience. That's my opinion.

However, if you feel you do need to justify yourself, be my guest

 

[BartW]

There’s a hand full on here flogging them to death at every opportunity Nice like massage seats in a car but most can and do live without .



To the pro stab brigade- his geny kept tripping due to a wet socket —— fat lot of good £100k,s worth of stabs fitted in Plymouth would have been !

Portofino I have to react here,
as MapisM say's, stabs offer A LOT more then a car with massage seats,
I think you either have no experience on a stabbed boat, or you are just unfair with your statement,

referring to the genny failure, remember that my stabs run on 24V DC to 230VAC invertors
and many hydraulic stabs run on a pump driven by a PTO on the main engine

I have been at sea on a River Boat down to Ipswich and back, and trust me she rolls all over the shop, now I have this Trader and she too rolls - I just find that is my experience and expectation of how boat is - I am ok with that, some are not - Shiela my partner could not stand it and was so thankful to get into Brighton an that was our calmest day!

Robin,
many thanks with your detailed and honest reporting, much apreciated !
and congrats with the trip !

referring to stabs (sorry for that) appart from the fact that I'm a very big fan,
I've alway's found it very important that my guests, but even more my wife, enjoy's here stay on the boat.
sharing adventures on board with family and friends is for me the pleasure of boat ownership !
I am sure that without stabs, we would have had much less pleasure onboard,
or it would have been without the wife in many occasions,
even at risk loosing her intrest for the boat

thanks again for posting your interesting adventures !

 

[wellf100]

Hi robin, keep posting and vlogging. The whole thing has been a great story and I've really enjoyed following...an adventure like this would liven up the MBY mag considerably! I followed the broads forum and completely agree with Portofino about what a great, supportive and positive bunch they are!