NBs
Active member
Hi,
really cool trip report, one of the best for a long time in different forums, great thanks for that. :encouragement:
NBs
Independence | Upadates & Cruising
- Thread starter londonrascal
- Start date
Hi,
really cool trip report, one of the best for a long time in different forums, great thanks for that. :encouragement:
NBs
Portofino
Well-known member
And you survived a long career :encouragement:
Btw I share you view on “morse “ engine / Gbox controls ——er - on a boat .
Back to Robins trip
Just a few thoughts —- in no particular order
Full safety gear
Done in legs
Day light only
Safety cop out plan c + d ports along the way
No night work
Crew rota
Long W/ E
Insight of land / never far away
Excess Nac gear - backed up
Radar
Food / water
Good nights rest in a Port
Fuel system professional overhaul B4
Professional eng ck + spares package B4
Serviceable tender ( as well as LR )
Crew leader (s) experienced familiar with heavy weather
Working VHF
Shore power every PM in lieu of the geny
What’s not to like or criticise?
Oh weather - forgot - agree would have made the DELIVERY trip more enjoyable ——- buts that’s rarther subjective.
Was a bumpy trip and the boat rolled a bit - so what - So Robin and the team collectively - went down ONE of his alternative plan lists regarding the crewing .
Boat arrived on time at the 1 st Bridge into the Broads ——
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petem
Well-known member
1) A boat that remains rather an unknown quantity (not surveyed or professionally inspected prior to purchase)
2) A crew that is unfamiliar with the boat
3) Poor weather
4) Decisions that appear to be driven by crew availability, an arbitrary desire to move the boat to the Broads and perhaps a reluctance to disappoint Robin's online audience.
All it would take would be for a mechanical failure to occur leading to the crew to become sea sick and suddenly they all start to go through the meltdown / panic that Robin experienced. Combine that with some bad weather (which way was the wind blowing?) and you have a potential disaster on your hands.
Admittedly some of the crew were in the Forces so should be able to cope under stress but it wouldn't be the first time seemingly experienced mariners have been caught out by the weather.
As I said before, pleasure boating should be pleasurable, not a test of endurance to crew or vessel.
Portofino
Well-known member
Jeremy, writing in my capacity as an ex Submariner, (O boats), it’s the RN crew that scare me the most!
And Porto, having crossed the Atlantic 8 times, 4 in a boat without stabs, (or keel), and 4 times in a liner with stabilisers, I can give first hand feedback that they are not comparable to massage seats....
They are in the context I thought I explained .- Exactly comparable
For your benefit and MapishM,s - and anybody else who did not get the analogy :encouragement:
Like a high end expensive option on a car , but not all manufacture,s give the choice , but like fin stabs it’s possible to Mod , retro fit .
It’s a single figure % demographics on uptake and buyers choise .
MapishM if you read my post “ why are they not standard fit ..... “ further down I mentioned sub 75 ft leisure sure boats .
MapishM then retorted that on long range ocean crossing boats -they are std fit inferring i was wrong — in an attempt I presume to defeat my statement “ why are they not std fit “ ?
That’s like me saying all Bentleys and Rolls Royce air suspension and massage ( cooling as well ) seats are standard fit .
I was talking a typical car park in a typical EU supermarket —- wheres the up take ?
So in a typical marina in a typical EU boating scenario or a typical boat show I don,t see standard fit fin stabs on the under 75 ft
The demo graphics of user uptake of stabs on boats is the same as massager seats and air suspension on cars - that’s the anology
Only a few takers if on the options list - very few some std fit .
So some how the vast majority of boater s on this forum happily manage without either of the above .
We all agree and recognise any boat with stabs or car with massage seats / air suspension has a superior ride and will be more comfortable than one without ,
But I,ll ask again why the LOW up take by the av joe ,
Where,s the demand ?
Here a pic of atypical Med summer anchorage——
Well Its still winter and a few boaty pics to cheer everybody up
https://imgur.com/a/nqBJA
petem
Well-known member
If you could by a giro for perhaps the same price as fitting A/C (c. £3k I'd have it fitted)! And I suspect we'll start to see many new boats in the 40-50ft size range having gyros fitted. Not sure if the new T43 will have it as an option, will check.
markc
Well-known member
Yes, Cost V Benefit is clearly a driving factor with all types of new technology. This has driven the development of pleasure boats for years... Overheard in a yacht club in 1923 ..."what do you want hot water for? cold is fine, it's bracing! What are you, some kind of wimp???"
Bouba
Well-known member
I think londonrascal’s story is quite remarkable. He came out with his fantasy of moving, starting a new life and getting a big boat but lo and behold in an amazingly quick time it’s all a reality. He did receive some criticism but I think that’s because he was a little disingenuous with his actual boating experience at first, but fair play to him he’s got a big boat at a very young age (lucky b*****).
Now the subject is stabilizers I want to join in, first by saying I would do anything for stabs, except pay £30,000. At the moment they have stabs for small boat sizes but not small boat prices. Perhaps the price will come down but I doubt it, after all passerelles, generators, air cons, hydraulic swim platforms etc are all available for small boats but still cost too much. My next point is a question, does having stabs dare you to go out in rough seas where the average sea conditions is doable but leave you exposed when you hit a really bad patch that is too dangerous for a pleasure boat?
Now the subject is stabilizers I want to join in, first by saying I would do anything for stabs, except pay £30,000. At the moment they have stabs for small boat sizes but not small boat prices. Perhaps the price will come down but I doubt it, after all passerelles, generators, air cons, hydraulic swim platforms etc are all available for small boats but still cost too much. My next point is a question, does having stabs dare you to go out in rough seas where the average sea conditions is doable but leave you exposed when you hit a really bad patch that is too dangerous for a pleasure boat?
n.herring
Active member
Everyone to there own ideas on this, in our Aquastar48 it does not make a difference to when we go out but if the weather changes it just makes it more pleasant. Gives you more confidence on the longer trips but still would not go with a 6 in the forecast and only go in a 5 with wind with us, much prefer and on longer trips usually 4-5 max
Went out of the Hamble a couple of years ago 6kts in the channel and forgot to turn them on, lost a glass of red when the wash from the redjet hit us, that for me is enough reason to have them! Neil
londonrascal
New member
I think the biggest error that some commenting on this thread are making, is the fact I care. You know this Forum is like the annoying Terrier yapping away - you ignore it and every now and then you have to deal with it.
People assume far too much to begin. This was not a paid crew that I was just going along with for a jolly, this are friends of mine - who had come previously to work on the boat and fix various items as you saw before we left Plymouth, who returned to help take it to Norfolk. This gives them amazing flexibility to say "Sorry I don't want to go on" and could have just walked away at the first Harbour. They are not getting any payment out of it but they decided to go on.
Equally, I did not 'decide' to myself that I was now not able to go on from Dover, can you imagine the pain and confusion and guilt I had walking away from my new boat and friends to embark on a journey from Dover by Train and constantly look at a little pink dot on Marina Traffic on my phone worried about them? But they had wished to carry on and I had trusted the boat in their hands to do just that. It was a situation I had little control over - my emotional state collapsed that evening as we approached Folkestone and that was not down to the the boat rolling about (it was not actually we had a head sea) it was not through the fact I was frozen with fear scared for my very existence - it was so far as I am best able to work out the fact I was in a situation I had never been in before, that I was not in anyway in control of that caused me to mentally shut down unable to focus on things or help out, or indeed do very much at all and ended up sat in the back cabin on the bed looking out the aft window. I found it incredible hard to simple reply to texts coming in from people.
This 'freaked me out' because I have never felt like that before, and could not just 'snap out' of it. The more I thought of this the more it got me down and low what if it came back, what if I was to be some kind of nervous wreck falling apart shouting and crying what the hell would the crew do and think, be distracted by this have to tend to me and so on. No I was not going to risk it for myself or their sakes so yeah, I did not continue.
And here I am on this Forum, on other Forums too, to the camera as well, sharing this - talkign about it - so many people have private messaged me, added me on Facebook, commented and praised me for being honest and open, they have shared their own experiences, thanked me for them being able to admit things too and open up and so on. So if you feel that is a weakness on my part, and I 'ran away' and so I am not able to relate to the rest of the journey and my write up of things so far is meaningless as the last leg I was not there that is pure rubbish. I have been stronger to see my limit, be honest about it and in so doing have helped people understand it is ok to be that way, it is ok to be open about it and not hide things away.
In all the months I have read this Forum before being a member and countless searches online here and elsewhere, together with reading peoples stories of their trips and so on you so often get a 'polished appraisal' of a situation people hate to loose face or appear weak I am not at all bothered about that. The fact is people have judged me when I first popped up here as if I was some kind of Troll messing about, oh and then I bought the boat, and then I was talking about having it cruised to Norfolk so we went through the explanations of keeping such a capable large boat on a small inland river system, and then we have the people who said it needed to be tested and issues ironed and how foolish I was not to have had a sea trial and so on, and then we had a sea trial but that was too rough and risky and then came the little digs about how I was so inexperienced and so on - every place I go, be it a Marina or a Chandler, a fellow boater moored alongside - you name it - the same time and again the shock the surprise the feeling of being second rate when they have to talk to me as the owner. "Oh" and then a pause "Sorry sir" and they continue. As if they expect my father should pop out and see an older gentleman to relate to. It is what happens to so many in our society in other areas, and being a white male from London never experienced it but now oh, yes the feeling of some how being discriminated against or judged and people backtracking and seeming somehow embarrassed afterwards. Is it I appear too young, is it I do not have the right 'look' or attitude to things that the stereo typical motorboat owner seems to I am not sure - but it is something.
So here we are - you can do no right, we took too much risks, could have (should have) waited longer for better conditions, how I am told that humans do not like to roll and how nobody can like such what a load of tosh that is. Assumptions once again. Can people please begin to see I do things not through stupidity but through choice and wish - if I want to spend out on new gear that will just sit there used maybe three times a year but makes me happy to look at how on earth does that effect anyone? I mean even the boat is pointless - I am usually alone, I cannot go using it or cruise to the local pub even but again, so what and how does that affect anyone. So why comment negative about the ideas of this "Why on earth would someone go to that trouble and expense" type thing and just accept I did and if you do not agree with this, and it makes you somehow upset or annoyed and frustrated then you do not need to following along with what I am doing and sharing. Wait until I buy a sailing boat and try learning how to sail - I am sure I will have the rag & stick brigade against me then lol.
Truthfully, I am not that keen on on the boat now I have got it, it is a bloody big burden that I have to sort out but since I have it I will carry on. I still need to learn to drive, I still need to buy a place and move from London and yet the biggest issue that keeps flaring up is the one that should be on the back burner: the boat. Always the boat. But not only is it the boat as in things I need to get for it, sort out on it, arrange to have tested on it and so on, it is justifying things I feel, say, do, or how I act and of all the things I should not need to do is justify those, so from now I won't be.
People assume far too much to begin. This was not a paid crew that I was just going along with for a jolly, this are friends of mine - who had come previously to work on the boat and fix various items as you saw before we left Plymouth, who returned to help take it to Norfolk. This gives them amazing flexibility to say "Sorry I don't want to go on" and could have just walked away at the first Harbour. They are not getting any payment out of it but they decided to go on.
Equally, I did not 'decide' to myself that I was now not able to go on from Dover, can you imagine the pain and confusion and guilt I had walking away from my new boat and friends to embark on a journey from Dover by Train and constantly look at a little pink dot on Marina Traffic on my phone worried about them? But they had wished to carry on and I had trusted the boat in their hands to do just that. It was a situation I had little control over - my emotional state collapsed that evening as we approached Folkestone and that was not down to the the boat rolling about (it was not actually we had a head sea) it was not through the fact I was frozen with fear scared for my very existence - it was so far as I am best able to work out the fact I was in a situation I had never been in before, that I was not in anyway in control of that caused me to mentally shut down unable to focus on things or help out, or indeed do very much at all and ended up sat in the back cabin on the bed looking out the aft window. I found it incredible hard to simple reply to texts coming in from people.
This 'freaked me out' because I have never felt like that before, and could not just 'snap out' of it. The more I thought of this the more it got me down and low what if it came back, what if I was to be some kind of nervous wreck falling apart shouting and crying what the hell would the crew do and think, be distracted by this have to tend to me and so on. No I was not going to risk it for myself or their sakes so yeah, I did not continue.
And here I am on this Forum, on other Forums too, to the camera as well, sharing this - talkign about it - so many people have private messaged me, added me on Facebook, commented and praised me for being honest and open, they have shared their own experiences, thanked me for them being able to admit things too and open up and so on. So if you feel that is a weakness on my part, and I 'ran away' and so I am not able to relate to the rest of the journey and my write up of things so far is meaningless as the last leg I was not there that is pure rubbish. I have been stronger to see my limit, be honest about it and in so doing have helped people understand it is ok to be that way, it is ok to be open about it and not hide things away.
In all the months I have read this Forum before being a member and countless searches online here and elsewhere, together with reading peoples stories of their trips and so on you so often get a 'polished appraisal' of a situation people hate to loose face or appear weak I am not at all bothered about that. The fact is people have judged me when I first popped up here as if I was some kind of Troll messing about, oh and then I bought the boat, and then I was talking about having it cruised to Norfolk so we went through the explanations of keeping such a capable large boat on a small inland river system, and then we have the people who said it needed to be tested and issues ironed and how foolish I was not to have had a sea trial and so on, and then we had a sea trial but that was too rough and risky and then came the little digs about how I was so inexperienced and so on - every place I go, be it a Marina or a Chandler, a fellow boater moored alongside - you name it - the same time and again the shock the surprise the feeling of being second rate when they have to talk to me as the owner. "Oh" and then a pause "Sorry sir" and they continue. As if they expect my father should pop out and see an older gentleman to relate to. It is what happens to so many in our society in other areas, and being a white male from London never experienced it but now oh, yes the feeling of some how being discriminated against or judged and people backtracking and seeming somehow embarrassed afterwards. Is it I appear too young, is it I do not have the right 'look' or attitude to things that the stereo typical motorboat owner seems to I am not sure - but it is something.
So here we are - you can do no right, we took too much risks, could have (should have) waited longer for better conditions, how I am told that humans do not like to roll and how nobody can like such what a load of tosh that is. Assumptions once again. Can people please begin to see I do things not through stupidity but through choice and wish - if I want to spend out on new gear that will just sit there used maybe three times a year but makes me happy to look at how on earth does that effect anyone? I mean even the boat is pointless - I am usually alone, I cannot go using it or cruise to the local pub even but again, so what and how does that affect anyone. So why comment negative about the ideas of this "Why on earth would someone go to that trouble and expense" type thing and just accept I did and if you do not agree with this, and it makes you somehow upset or annoyed and frustrated then you do not need to following along with what I am doing and sharing. Wait until I buy a sailing boat and try learning how to sail - I am sure I will have the rag & stick brigade against me then lol.
Truthfully, I am not that keen on on the boat now I have got it, it is a bloody big burden that I have to sort out but since I have it I will carry on. I still need to learn to drive, I still need to buy a place and move from London and yet the biggest issue that keeps flaring up is the one that should be on the back burner: the boat. Always the boat. But not only is it the boat as in things I need to get for it, sort out on it, arrange to have tested on it and so on, it is justifying things I feel, say, do, or how I act and of all the things I should not need to do is justify those, so from now I won't be.
petem
Well-known member
You're not the first to have a bit of buyer's remorse, particularly if you've had a bit of a scare. Whilst we can all sound a bit judgemental, we're not doing it to make you feel bad, just to make you think twice and perhaps LISTEN a bit more in the future!
But this feeling of not loving the boat is curable! Best thing to do is forget the boat for a month. Don't go down to it, don't buy any stuff for it and put it our of your mind. Take Shelia on holiday in the sun for a week perhaps and recharge your batteries. Then I'm pretty sure that your interest will return and you can then start looking forward to some cruising in calm and sunny conditions. You have bought a nice boat at the end of the day.
Nigelpickin
Active member
Hi Robin,
I hope that you’re not too disheartened - have a re read of most of the posts in recent days; nearly all of us are saying well done. You did what you set out to do and lived to tell the tale. You’ve gotten more experience and bragging rights than most from this experience and you have your boat, where you want it - ready for a wonderful season I hope.
Give yourself time to recover, get back on board on a sunny day, put the kettle on and I’m sure you’ll start to think your glass is over half full. That Trader is a fine boat, it will really come into its own with prolonged time on board. Given the evidence to date, it won’t be long before the next big adventure calls for you and I hope you choose to share it with us, warts and all.
Apologies if you’ve construed any of my input at overly negative, I lost my bedside manner early on,to clarify I think you’re totally bonkers and all the better for it - we’ll done again.
I hope that you’re not too disheartened - have a re read of most of the posts in recent days; nearly all of us are saying well done. You did what you set out to do and lived to tell the tale. You’ve gotten more experience and bragging rights than most from this experience and you have your boat, where you want it - ready for a wonderful season I hope.
Give yourself time to recover, get back on board on a sunny day, put the kettle on and I’m sure you’ll start to think your glass is over half full. That Trader is a fine boat, it will really come into its own with prolonged time on board. Given the evidence to date, it won’t be long before the next big adventure calls for you and I hope you choose to share it with us, warts and all.
Apologies if you’ve construed any of my input at overly negative, I lost my bedside manner early on,to clarify I think you’re totally bonkers and all the better for it - we’ll done again.
NBs
Active member
Hi,
People are so different, others are afraid of the sea, like a sunny nice day and others at sea will start to be nice as waves grow and people out of the sea. To sea the departure is always a risk and for every boater it is a different level, depending on boat, experience and skills. In the worst lap you have cruised with your own boat it increases the tolerance of the sea, as more boats withstand more than a skipper. There can always be many acute issues that lead to an accident, statistically here in Finland, accidentally (death) dying more than home, just like anywhere else, so the sea is quite safe.
Now you're richer in experience and you know you can trust your boat more than you'd been looking for a smooth sea.
NBs
n.herring
Active member
Totally agree with everything said by Nigel in post 231, except forget the kettle and open a bottle of red, well done and keep posting, lots of lovely people and places on the Broads, Neil
markc
Well-known member
If we're handing out truth here, and I speak only for myself, I thought that you buying the boat that you want the way you wanted was great, and I certainly gave you credit for it publicly and via PM. You made the trip that you made, great. Everyone survived and you got the boat where you wanted it and have a good tale to tell. That's great too (I wouldn't have done it, but that doesn't matter).
The thing that gets me is that you come to this forum asking for advice, but when you get that advice you then spend countless hours telling people that gave you advice how wrong they are. That winds people up. If you just want to broadcast how good you are, don't ask for advice, just write a blog somewhere about what great decisions you made all by yourself and those that want to read it can. Please don't ask us for advice as you don't want any, you just want affirmation on decisions you have already made, or an argument.
I truly hope the buyers remorse subsides & have some good boating. :encouragement:
BruceK
Well-known member
ditto. Perhaps the board is not a place for your PR showcase vlog / blog or whatever they are calling it these days. To me you have summed it up in your last post quite nicely. You're young,....bold, impetuous etc, all the qualities of youth. Your target audience here is somewhat more ....uhm... how do I put this delicately....matured
. Watching you is like watching my own kid first find his way in adulthood. We want to dip in and offer advice and remonstration. But we shouldn't, you dont want it and a few falls will probably do you some good. Good luck! And dont hurt yourself.Andy Bav
Active member
Well said that man.
Having followed this from afar, Robin has been less than conventional in what he has done - but that was his choice. Luck and / or good judgement got him to his destination - I offer no opinion - and good luck to him.
I know from our perspective, we are "boated out" by our close down weekend in October, but a combination of a long break from the boat and the London Boatshow rekindles out interest and we are ready for next season - Feb the 17th can't come soon enough.
Personally, baring your soul (and emotions) on an internet forum is not something I would do as I feel it is a recipe for mental conflict as you have naysayers and positive guys / girls offering their advice, which can only add to the confusion. But each to their own
I agree with PeteM in that you now have "your baby" where you want her so now is the time to maybe take a time out and then take stock of what you have. Frankly as boat owners - and yours is a very nice boat too (with or without stabs
)- we are all in a privileged position and to have the ability to use it as and when you can, in such a nice part of the world, can not be discounted.Good luck Robin and I genuinely hope you have many happy times onboard with family and friends.
:encouragement:
jrudge
Well-known member
You mentioned that other posts are polished versions of the truth.
I don’t really think that is the case.
Most of us have been boating for a while (10 or so years in my case ) and there have been remarkably few mishaps. This only comes about as you know your capabilities and comfort level ( different things and rough seas I am quite capable in but I don’t like it much and more importantly nor do family and friends. ) , those of the Boat and can make good decisions based on the available information - mostly weather - and decide to stay in port.
I have done daft things ( I sunk a Williams 325 in st tropez purely as I did not know the boat that well and made a daft decision. ) most of us have.
I flew planes for 20 years ( a lot of others on here do / did aswell ) Again I have few war stories as I was always within my capabilities and got lots of training including instrument rating etc
So the messsgd from me is you make your own drama. Decision making tends to keep more experienced people away from things hey and their friends don’t like! My instructor kept pointing out ... it’s a leisure activity !
I don’t really think that is the case.
Most of us have been boating for a while (10 or so years in my case ) and there have been remarkably few mishaps. This only comes about as you know your capabilities and comfort level ( different things and rough seas I am quite capable in but I don’t like it much and more importantly nor do family and friends. ) , those of the Boat and can make good decisions based on the available information - mostly weather - and decide to stay in port.
I have done daft things ( I sunk a Williams 325 in st tropez purely as I did not know the boat that well and made a daft decision. ) most of us have.
I flew planes for 20 years ( a lot of others on here do / did aswell ) Again I have few war stories as I was always within my capabilities and got lots of training including instrument rating etc
So the messsgd from me is you make your own drama. Decision making tends to keep more experienced people away from things hey and their friends don’t like! My instructor kept pointing out ... it’s a leisure activity !
Blue Sunray
Well-known member
In a rather different environment it was once suggested to me that I look again at a few individuals that were seen as good crisis managers, specifically that I examine who had in fact been responsible for the crisis occurring in the first place. Sure enough they were often the same people, the better managers were those who avoided having to manage crises by PPPPPPP.
MapisM
Well-known member
L, I already said that this debate was making me lose the will to live, and your replies/comments aren't improving such feeling.
So, feel free to go ahead with them if you wish, but this post will be the last for good, from my part.
"Retorted"? "Defeat your statement"?
Perleeeease... If you don't want to read answers to your questions, don't make any.
Boats whose range is measured in days rather than hours fit stabilizers as standard, period.
If that doesn't say something about how essential they are considered by folks who really go places with mobos - and by yards who build boats aimed at them - I don't know what else does.
Otoh, if you still think that comparisons with massage seats, Rolls, Bentleys or whatever can make any slightest sense, sorry but that's your problem, not mine.
Ref. where's the demand for "other" boats, thanks for your Faraglioni pic and all others, but if all you wanted is prove that the majority of Med boats do not have stabs, you could have saved yourself the effort, because that's obviously true, and I never pretended the opposite.
Two very simple reasons being that a) stabs are newer than most of the boats you can see around, and b) they are expensive.
Now, if in your reasoning this proves that there's no demand for boat stabilization in "other" boats, and it's not worth spending quite a bit of money for something as useful as massage seats, well, stop arguing with myself (also because I don't own a stabilized boat anymore!) and please explain to the following gentlemen why they made the big mistake of either buy stabilized boats, or retrofitting them:
- Twohooter
- Piers
- Jfm
- Silverdee
- Deleted User
- NickH
- Bartw
...with apologies to all others which I'm forgetting.
Portofino
Well-known member
MapishM- I thought Markc eloquently nailed it with the phase “ Cost v Benefit “ phase .
Re - read my post # 224 .
I,am not being judgemental just reporting facts and asking why the low uptake by builders / owners demanding retrofitting .
Clearly I,am praising those luxuary optional items , not knocking them .
Those on the list - another observation are not - to quote you “ crossing oceans “ either ( happily to be factually corrected )
That’s a term I think you introduced into this debate ?
Piers s Fleming is the nearest boat to your “100 % of factory fit boats .”One ! thats actually designed for very long periods at expidition speed ,a long time aboard .
The rest have opted in , and like any list of options outs there which involves a decision ,a rare choise for under 75 ftr s
But as I have been saying all along “ we all agree —— they make it more comfortable “ see my post #224 I,am with everybody on that ,
So I,am baffled ** why you suggest I some how have put fwd some sort of reasoning the folks on the list need to be told why they have wasted there money . They have not imho .
Therefore I,can’t answer that Q - sorry
Nether the less the demographic take up by builders std fit or owners retro fitting is there for all to see .
Your list , let’s 2x it to gather up those missed - say now 15 ,i can afford to be my generous self with this - toss a few more in - call it 20 stabbed boats ( how many std fit ? - a few of the few now )
So what % is that on this forum have stabilised boats - ans - well it’s gonna be a single figure .
A better Q to ask ,and Robins answered it , is NOT - do you need them ? Is - do folks aspire to them ?
I, mean Robin s even refused them if they were FOC ,
If there is an aspirational market - the industry is slow to react imho
Hope this helps - I,am still alive and loving it btw
strong will like Robin :encouragement:Cost v Benifits
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