Girl, 15, dies in Southampton boat crash

[madabouttheboat]

I've been on a fast RIB trip from Ellenbeich. It was good fun but at no time did I feel at all in danger - no close passes to buoys, delicate handling through the rey Dogs and Coirebhreacan, slow speeds in the congested areas of Easdale. I'd met their RIBs at sea before and their manners were always impeccable, keeping away and/or slowing down as required.

These trips can be done sensibly and safely yet still be fun and exciting. There is absolutely no need to pratt around like a boy racer with a souped up Morris Marina 1.8TC (am I showing my age here?).

I think that tends to be my feeling about this. Ultimately, the skipper is starting to sound like the wrong person in the wrong position (assuming no mechanical failure contributed to this accident). I will be interested in finding out their qualifications, which I am sure will be in the final report. I sincerely hope they had more than a PB2 and hope that at least they had plenty of experience behind them. I have lots of fast boat qualifications, including a instructors certificate and YM offshore power, but as well as thousands of miles and hundreds of hours experience of fast boats, even I would be hesitant to take one of these boats out knowing the responsibility that it entails, but also the fact that I would be expected to make it 'exciting'.

 

[scottie]

I've been on a fast RIB trip from Ellenbeich. It was good fun but at no time did I feel at all in danger - no close passes to buoys, delicate handling through the rey Dogs and Coirebhreacan, slow speeds in the congested areas of Easdale. I'd met their RIBs at sea before and their manners were always impeccable, keeping away and/or slowing down as required.

These trips can be done sensibly and safely yet still be fun and exciting. There is absolutely no need to pratt around like a boy racer with a souped up Morris Marina 1.8TC (am I showing my age here?).

Perhaps the natural hazards provide enough excitement without creating thrills just for the sake of it
my own experience of jet boats in the Niagra rapids was far more memorable than any Rib Ride

 

[boatiebert]

I hope this will lead to a well deserved prison sentence but by the nature of morons it won't change the behaviour of the fast rib trip people as they'll believe they are a more skilful type of moron. It would need regulation.

Apparently you need to be fully qualified in the Dunning-Kruger Effect in order to operate a RIB trip boat.

Imagine the size of the civil law suit if this had happened in the USA. It'd be in the millions.

I've been thinking about it & I can't even see these boats as having much of a use in the military as you're sitting ducks sitting out there in the front. What's their history anyway?

Funnily enough, the most boring RB trip I have ever taken was being piloted by an ex-Marine. I guess he didn't feel the need to prove himself with a Rambo soundtrack playing.

 

[Adios]

I think that fast RIB trips, at least the make it as dangerous as we can usually get away with variety, only exist because of an algorithm failure.

Thought 1: The forces involved could be huge if anything goes wrong, passengers should only be on this if they all have harnesses same as a rollercoaster or rally car experience.

Thought 2: However, being strapped to the seat will mean drowning would be likely if the rib capsizes.

Rather than thought 3 cycling back and being "Therefore there is NO safe way to do this so it shouldn't be done", its like the chain of safety thinking just fizzles out and ends up with "well whatever then, f*** it we'll just do it without harnesses, hold tight ladies!"

 

[boatiebert]

Yeah, as part of the "safety induction" they should be required to throw them all into the water, THEN ask if they still want to do it.

I can't see how you can do harness as if the boat went over, all the lifejackets would inflate, then you'd have 12 people struggling to escape but ending up trapped by their vests under the boat. And some peope don't react well in such reactions, e.g. the kind of people who stampede over others & kill them in crowd collapse situations.

I'm interested to see what the conclusions of the MIAB will be. Do they have enough clout to call time on them, or is it all just advisory?

 

[Adios]

Yeah, as part of the "safety induction" they should be required to throw them all into the water, THEN ask if they still want to do it.

Have them on one of these swing rides next to the dock and angle it to hit the water at 40 mph, then ask if they still want to do it.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I think that the point of rollercoasters (I've done a few) is that they are meantto feel dangerous, without actually being dangerous. By which I mean that we have evolved to respond to certain stimuli associated with danger in a way which makes us safer. So if we feel ourselves falling we reach for support and if we can see down a long way we back away. Rollercoasters have very carefully calculated acceleration, jerk and jounce[1] profiles to stimulate these responses, while glass floored bridge to the same thing rather simply.

In other words, rollercoasters don't feel dangerous; they feel like what dangerous would feel like, if you see what I mean. So we ride them and enjoy the thrill while deep down knowing that we are completely safe.

The same goes, or should go, for other thrill rides. As a customer I would expect a whizz around in a RIB to feel dangerous (air time over ferry wakes as if we were falling, close passes as if a sabre-toothed tiger was jumping past us) but I would not for one instant expect it actually to be dangerous. That would be like going to a conjuring performance assuming a slight possibility that real magic was involved.

If the advertising for those RIB trips had said "There is a significant chance that this ride will injure or kill you. What could be more thrilling than that?" I really don't think they would have received many customers. The lamentable standard of maintenance at fairgrounds puts me off rides; it does not make them more alluring.

[1] Jerk: rate of change of acceleration. Jounce (or snap): rate of change of jerk.

I hate any such rides - they tend to turn my stomach! But of course, when my children were little, I had to be the responsible Dad and take them on rides I personally disliked. I remember coming off a few of them very green in the face! I

Yeah, as part of the "safety induction" they should be required to throw them all into the water, THEN ask if they still want to do it.

I can't see how you can do harness as if the boat went over, all the lifejackets would inflate, then you'd have 12 people struggling to escape but ending up trapped by their vests under the boat. And some peope don't react well in such reactions, e.g. the kind of people who stampede over others & kill them in crowd collapse situations.

I'm interested to see what the conclusions of the MIAB will be. Do they have enough clout to call time on them, or is it all just advisory?

Those who are going in Navy helicopters in the Antarctic used to have to do the "dunker" exercise. You were strapped into a mock-up of a helicopter cabin, which was inverted and dropped into a large tank, in darkness. You were expected to manage to release your harness and exit through the door. I (praise be!) never did it, but those who did never forgot it. Of course, there were divers in the tank to ensure everyone got out, but even so... I understand that nearly everyone became disoriented, and that it required strong nerves to find the door and get out.

It strikes me that these wild rides are much riskier than a helicopter ride, so perhaps equivalent training should be mandatory

 

[PilotWolf]

The dunker is something I never want to do again!

I watched one similar here as a passenger before applying to work for the company. Didn’t apply.

PW

 

[Greenheart]

I think fast RIB trips only exist because of an algorithm failure...

Thought 1: passengers should only be on this if they all have harnesses same as a rollercoaster or rally car experience.

Thought 2: being strapped to the seat will mean drowning if the RIB capsizes.

Thought 3: "Therefore there is NO safe way to do this so it shouldn't be done"...

...but the safety thinking fizzles out and ends up with "well whatever then, we'll just do it without harnesses, hold tight ladies!"

I reckon that's spot-on, and more importantly, that these passengers had no idea of the unresolved arguments both ways.

Would a civil claim diminish the likelihood of repetition, that may be enabled by the same approach enduring?
.

 

[Bouba]

One possibility is to stop using hard furniture on these ribs. There’s no reason why the passenger area has to have any stainless steel. Soft straps of smaller diameter would be easier to grip and not be slippery or a hazard to hit

 

[Adios]

One possibility is to stop using hard furniture on these ribs. There’s no reason why the passenger area has to have any stainless steel. Soft straps of smaller diameter would be easier to grip and not be slippery or a hazard to hit

And harnesses with straps that break away when submerged using similar tech to self inflating LJ activators.

For this direct hit crash though they'd probably have also needed neck braces to be OK but for most things both those changes would surely help.

 

[penberth3]

.....I'm interested to see what the conclusions of the MIAB will be. Do they have enough clout to call time on them, or is it all just advisory?

Nothing to do with the MAIB, they can make recommendations to the MCA, who can do anything from ignore to asking Govt for new or amended legislation.

 

[Adios]

Would a civil claim diminish the likelihood of repetition, that may be enabled by the same approach enduring?

I really don't like the civil claim culture being the means to sorting out what should be obvious. The compo culture is really poisonous, lots of people actively look for ways to win the compo lottery and it ends up making everyone providing any service over nannying and endlessly talking to people like they are utter idiots, sign on packet of peanuts "Warning may contain nuts" etc, and yes I'll mind the bloody gap. It makes it seem we live in a world of morons even more than we actually do, which is a bit depressing.

 

[penberth3]

.......Would a civil claim diminish the likelihood of repetition, that may be enabled by the same approach enduring?

In a sort of indirect way - Insurance companies would certainly take note, premiums would increase, operators would think a bit harder about what they were doing.

 

[Adios]

premiums would increase

Yes for everyone including the responsible operators who never do anything that dangerous. Its better to have legislation for the extreme operators than let the insurance market financially crush everyone into not being able to operate. Ultimately making everything more expensive for the consumers and the insurance companies making more money off us.

 

[Greenheart]

I really don't like the civil claim culture being the means to sorting out what should be obvious. It makes it seem we live in a world of morons even more than we actually do, which is a bit depressing.

Quite - we agree. But isn't the impasse that arises if operators are not financially obliged to take proper care of their passengers, the same as the present ludicrous position you described, where there's nothing to be done except hold on tight and hope for the best?

The worst thing must be ignorance - people embarking on a 'fun' trip without knowing it carries a liability. To my mind, the same rides could continue without modification, if it can be shown that every passenger is acutely aware of the real-world worst that may happen.

Maybe they will be, after this girl's death. It has happened, so it may happen again, and it isn't predictable.

 

[Adios]

Quite - we agree. But isn't the impasse that arises if operators are not financially obliged to take proper care of their passengers, the same as the present ludicrous position you described, where there's nothing to be done except hold on tight and hope for the best?

The worst thing must be ignorance - people embarking on a 'fun' trip without knowing it carries a liability. To my mind, the same rides could continue without modification, if it can be shown that every passenger is acutely aware of the real-world worst that may happen.

Maybe they will be, after this girl's death. It has happened, so it may happen again, and it isn't predictable.

They shouldn't need to be financially obliged if they are legally obliged. Isn't the idea of criminal negligence to have the same effect of encouraging responsible behaviour? Then at least it is just impacting on the problem people who would be otherwise irresponsible. You know how it would be with insurance premium rises, its a blunt tool which would also impact the operators who were already being responsible. And the cost is always passed on to the punter.

However I'm not against this middle way found in Islamic law Islamic Law Provides for Diyyah, or Blood Money As far as I know its not linked to an insurance company who will spread the cost of their payout over their other premiums, the liable person would have to find the money. Especially when the victim is the breadwinner its obviously not a bad thing to have financial compensation for the family.

 

[penberth3]

Yes for everyone including the responsible operators who never do anything that dangerous. Its better to have legislation for the extreme operators than let the insurance market financially crush everyone into not being able to operate. Ultimately making everything more expensive for the consumers and the insurance companies making more money off us.

Very unlikely to get legislation (and enforcement) based on a small number of incidents. Govt don't have the time for that, and the reckless idiots would ignore it anyway.

 

[Sandy]

I'm interested to see what the conclusions of the MIAB will be. Do they have enough clout to call time on them, or is it all just advisory?

It sounds like you don't know the function of the MAIB. They are there to investigate the root cause of an accident not prosecute anybody or company for the accident, that is for others to do.

I come from a Safety Engineering background and have written reports like the ones published by AAIB, MAIB and others. Evidence gathering is always challenging and needs to be done sensitivity especially in the case of a fatality, and where the evidence given by people involved in the accident when they know that their actions could result in being charged with a serious offence. Thankfully, in my case, the decision to prosecute was made by others.

RIBS don't have a "Black Box" like commercial aircraft, but given that Southampton Water is extremely well monitored by Southampton VTS, an example is I was on-board a large coded yacht that had just weighed anchor and had not moved more than a boats length (30 meters) before VTS popped up on the radio asking if we were underway) there will be AIS and radar evidence.

 

[PhillM]

I have not read the whole thread, so apologies in advance for any repeat.
I used to sail out of Ocean Village so saw these rides almost every weekend. They have often circled around me while getting themselves setup to jump the wake of the Red Funnel Ferry. Lots of screaming and shouting of excited people. I am not going to go down the “shouldn’t be allowed” route. But perhaps shouldn’t have been allowed there. There was often slots of commercial traffic and loads of pleasure boats.

Unless I am mistaken, the area in question is under the control of Southampton Harbour Master. S/he could easily have slapped a speed limit of say, 15kn on the area, with exclusions for vessels over xx weight , which would allow the Red Jet to operate ok.