Girl, 15, dies in Southampton boat crash

[flaming]

Emily Lewis: Speedboat skipper cleared of teenager's manslaughter

Not guilty of manslaughter.
Guilty of not maintaining a lookout and safe speed.

 

[Seven Spades]

Wow

 

[flaming]

The crown prosecution service don't seem to have a good track record in getting convictions in Jury trials involving maritime matters.

From memory they didn't get a guilty verdict in their main or most serious charge in the Ouzo case, the Hot Liquid case, the Cheeky Rafiki case and now this one.

 

[westernman]

The crown prosecution service don't seem to have a good track record in getting convictions in Jury trials involving maritime matters.

From memory they didn't get a guilty verdict in their main or most serious charge in the Ouzo case, the Hot Liquid case, the Cheeky Rafiki case and now this one.

What do you think the verdict would have been if it had been a road traffic accident under somewhat similar circumstances?
For instance driving on a narrow country lane at 60mph and then hitting and killing a cyclist coming the other way which was difficult to see as you came over the brow of a hill into direct sunlight?

I suspect also that it would not be a manslaughter conviction but a just a dangerous driving conviction as is basically the case here.

I am not defending the verdict - just trying to understand better.

 

[flaming]

What do you think the verdict would have been if it had been a road traffic accident under somewhat similar circumstances?
For instance driving on a narrow country lane at 60mph and then hitting and killing a cyclist coming the other way which was difficult to see as you came over the brow of a hill into direct sunlight?

I suspect also that it would not be a manslaughter conviction but a just a dangerous driving conviction as is basically the case here.

I am not defending the verdict - just trying to understand better.

I think you'd get a different verdict if you drove straight at a cyclist for 14s without doing anything to avoid them....

My point though was that the CPS seem to be getting into a bit of a habit of deciding to prosecute serious, and high profile, marine matters and then not managing to get convictions.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The crown prosecution service don't seem to have a good track record in getting convictions in Jury trials involving maritime matters.

From memory they didn't get a guilty verdict in their main or most serious charge in the Ouzo case, the Hot Liquid case, the Cheeky Rafiki case and now this one.

I've just reviewed the requirements for a manslaughter conviction, and I must admit that it seems to me that finding him guilty of failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to proceed at a safe speed should logically have resulted in a manslaughter conviction. The death was a direct result of his failures, and there was no intent to cause death, and my lay understanding is that that's what manslaughter is!

 

[flaming]

I've just reviewed the requirements for a manslaughter conviction, and I must admit that it seems to me that finding him guilty of failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to proceed at a safe speed should logically have resulted in a manslaughter conviction. The death was a direct result of his failures, and there was no intent to cause death, and my lay understanding is that that's what manslaughter is!

I'm sure that legal minds on the forum might be better informed than me, but it seems to my lay interpretation that the offence of "causing Death by Dangerous Driving" was created in order to bridge the gap between a genuine accident and the bar required for a manslaughter conviction.
From Wikipedia

This offence was formerly created by the Road Traffic Act 1956.[9] It was introduced as an alternative to manslaughter as juries had been found reluctant to convict defendants of that offence.[10]

Causing death by dangerous driving - Wikipedia

However there is no offence of "causing death by dangerous boating" which you would actually suspect would be a better description of what happened here. Or even "Careless boating".

 

[Sianna]

It's all so sad, I was on Southampton water doing my PB2 when this happened, very fortunately, I didn't see the accident take place but did see the Seadogz Rib being towed up the Itchen afterwards.

What started as a fun day out ended in this tragedy.

 

[westernman]

However there is no offence of "causing death by dangerous boating" which you would actually suspect would be a better description of what happened here. Or even "Careless boating".

I think the equivalent is "failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to proceed at a safe speed".

 

[flaming]

I think the equivalent is "failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to proceed at a safe speed".

I guess we will see what the judge makes of the seriousness of the charges when he is sentenced.

 

[benjenbav]

I guess we will see what the judge makes of the seriousness of the charges when he is sentenced.

I think you’re right about ‘death by dangerous driving’ filling a gap below manslaughter.
In 2021, David Marr was convicted of not keeping a proper watch and sent to prison as skipper of Vertrouwen following an incident that caused three deaths.

 

[mainsail1]

I've just reviewed the requirements for a manslaughter conviction, and I must admit that it seems to me that finding him guilty of failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to proceed at a safe speed should logically have resulted in a manslaughter conviction. The death was a direct result of his failures, and there was no intent to cause death, and my lay understanding is that that's what manslaughter is!

That was my thought but a Jury can be swayed from logic by "other" factors and the skipper seems to be devastated by what happened and maybe the Jury felt a Manslaughter conviction would do no good. They probably overlooked "the bigger picture".

 

[Biggles Wader]

Traditionally we had a justice system which required a significant element of "intent" to commit a crime but we have moved towards a more strict liability system where that is less important. We have also moved to a more punitive system with much longer prison terms than before. It is not too much of a surprise that some juries are reluctant to play along.

 

[penfold]

What do you think the verdict would have been if it had been a road traffic accident under somewhat similar circumstances?
For instance driving on a narrow country lane at 60mph and then hitting and killing a cyclist coming the other way which was difficult to see as you came over the brow of a hill into direct sunlight?

I suspect also that it would not be a manslaughter conviction but a just a dangerous driving conviction as is basically the case here.

I am not defending the verdict - just trying to understand better.

Not a very satisfactory analogy; better would be a minibus driven into street furniture or a bridge abutment resulting in the death of a passenger. The master of the vessel should not be allowed to earn a living from being in charge of a boat carrying passengers ever again.

 

[Sandy]

The master of the vessel should not be allowed to earn a living from being in charge of a boat carrying passengers ever again.

That is not in the gift of the court. The MCA or RYA can withdraw any certification which would achieve that outcome. Personally, if I had been the master I would be so devastated I would find it difficulty to step on a vessel again.

 

[ean_p]

I find it quite remarkable when compared to the 'speed boat' death convicted of manslaughter..... Jack Shepherd: Speedboat killer has sentence reduced.
Gross negligent manslaughter, where the death is a result of a grossly negligent (though otherwise lawful) act or omission on the part of the defendant.
One hitting a submerged log at night, the other a 4mtr navigation buoy in daylight............ go figure

 

[westernman]

I find it quite remarkable when compared to the 'speed boat' death convicted of manslaughter..... Jack Shepherd: Speedboat killer has sentence reduced.
Gross negligent manslaughter, where the death is a result of a grossly negligent (though otherwise lawful) act or omission on the part of the defendant.
One hitting a submerged log at night, the other a 4mtr navigation buoy in daylight............ go figure

Good point.

But I think a lot of other circumstances around Jack Shepherd's actions on that night as well as before and after lead to the conviction.
It was not just hitting a log at night.

 

[ean_p]

Good point.

But I think a lot of other circumstances around Jack Shepherd's actions on that night as well as before and after lead to the conviction.
It was not just hitting a log at night.

can you expand...?

 

[flaming]

can you expand...?

They'd been drinking, the decision was made to go fast at night, the boat was not in the best condition with basically no safety equipment, it was definitely a "pick up" technique and he'd used it before, he handed the controls over to her just before the crash and he skipped the country afterwards. So the irresponsibility didn't just occur at the moment of the accident, but was quite multilayered.

Somewhat different circumstances to this crash, which took place in broad daylight and fine conditions, there is no suggestion that the skipper was anything other than sober, was clearly very experienced, had not relinquished control to someone inexperienced, the boat seemed to be in good condition with all the relevant safety equipment and documentation for a commercial operation.

 

[dukeofted]

I think you'd get a different verdict if you drove straight at a cyclist for 14s without doing anything to avoid them....

My point though was that the CPS seem to be getting into a bit of a habit of deciding to prosecute serious, and high profile, marine matters and then not managing to get convictions.

You would be wrong in a lot of cases involving cyclists (and pedestrians) unfortunately. A driving license is almost a license to kill.