Beginning to think we need a bigger boat

[johnalison]

It would be a mistake to put one’s faith in any one safety feature, but that doesn’t mean that bulkheads, liferafts, bridge decks and draining cockpits don’t have their uses, even if most of us get through our sailing lives without using or testing them. My boat has bulkheads at both ends which have probably never come into play on any of the many built but I am grateful that the designer took at least some care.

 

[Tranona]

"....The feeling of comfort and safety with a heavy boat is, I think largely illusory - just as the adjective "heavy" is misleading. Look at the figures that I gave earlier. The Sigma and the Bavaria weigh virtually the same at around 5.5 tones. My Bav 33 (and 37) were both 5,5 tonnes. The difference is where the weight is. Older boats have more weight in the keel because they need it to stay upright. By and large the stability curves are similar - although it is difficult to directly compare because older boats were never subject to stability analysis as newer boats are. However many 70s and 80s boats with the type of keel and ballast ratio the Sigma has were short of stability...... "



The reality is most performance boats old and new have a good ballast ratio The exception would be a boat, flat bottomed and light, designed mainly to race downwind.

Ballast is about more than worrying about turning upside down. It is important to the ability to carry sail, the amount of sail tending and reefing that has to be done and the ability to carry excess cruising weight above the waterline in safety. Some boats with low stability can't carry furling sails, gantries, radar domes, solar/wind generators and the rest without putting themselves in danger or becoming very tender. Perhaps that is why so many seem to operate under motor The matter has been highlighted in Heavy Weather Sailing.

The stability curves for both boats will be very different but we don't know because Bavaria have never made theirs public and even customers have been oddly unable to access them. Odd that.
Perhaps someone who has bought and owned a new Bavaria could show us the stability curve so the matter could be explored better?

.

I rather think you missed the point I was making - it is not the amount of ballast that is important it is where it is placed. I thought I had explained it clearly and showed why both stability and sail carrying ability can be similar with very different ballast ratios. The greater form stability and foot deeper keel of the Bavaria achieves similar outcomes to the Sigma with the same displacement. The almost universal move away from the Sigma type hull and keel form suggests designers took on board the findings of the Fastnet enquiry and the subsequent work on stability carried out to develop the RCD requirements.

As to sail carrying ability it is worth looking at the test of the latest Bavaria C46. This boat has a ballast ratio of just over 20% and a SA/Disp of over 20 - way above the typical for older style cruising boats. The tester praises its sailing ability admittedly not in heavy weather, but also comments on how easy it is to adjust sail area to match conditions. This is of course more extreme than the typical AWB with higher ballast ratios and smaller sail areas but does illustrate that design is more important that simple reliance on weight.

You are right about the impact of adding weight can seriously affect stability, but many older designs have poor stability as measured by the RCD methodology. However it does not seem to result in founderings as a direct consequence. The impact as I found out with my first Bavaria with its shallow keel big sprayhood, bimini and poor sails is poor performance under sail in heavy conditions - inability to make progress and lots of leeway. However on the few occasions I got into that type of situation I never felt unsafe or in any danger. Just get the boat balanced as well as possible and let it go where it wants. That seems to be a common strategy used by many others in all kinds of boat.

 

[doug748]

I rather think you missed the point I was making - it is not the amount of ballast that is important it is where it is placed. I thought I had explained it clearly and showed why both stability and sail carrying ability can be similar with very different ballast ratios. The greater form stability and foot deeper keel of the Bavaria achieves similar outcomes to the Sigma with the same displacement. The almost universal move away from the Sigma type hull and keel form suggests designers took on board the findings of the Fastnet enquiry and the subsequent work on stability carried out to develop the RCD requirements.

As to sail carrying ability it is worth looking at the test of the latest Bavaria C46. This boat has a ballast ratio of just over 20% and a SA/Disp of over 20 - way above the typical for older style cruising boats. The tester praises its sailing ability admittedly not in heavy weather, but also comments on how easy it is to adjust sail area to match conditions. This is of course more extreme than the typical AWB with higher ballast ratios and smaller sail areas but does illustrate that design is more important that simple reliance on weight.

You are right about the impact of adding weight can seriously affect stability, but many older designs have poor stability as measured by the RCD methodology. However it does not seem to result in founderings as a direct consequence. The impact as I found out with my first Bavaria with its shallow keel big sprayhood, bimini and poor sails is poor performance under sail in heavy conditions - inability to make progress and lots of leeway. However on the few occasions I got into that type of situation I never felt unsafe or in any danger. Just get the boat balanced as well as possible and let it go where it wants. That seems to be a common strategy used by many others in all kinds of boat.

Well your own link was to a Bavaria 36 and 38 cruiser and, by accident, a sold Sigma was on the same page, so the comparison was made.

Are these the boats? From Sailboatdata:

Bavaria 38 cruiser Disp 15,400 Ballast 4,600 Draught 5.6ft 30%

Bavaria 36 Disp 11,800 Ballast 3,900 Draught 6ft 33.2%
Sigma 362 Disp 12400 Ballast 5160 Draught 6ft 41.6%

So I am baffled. Especially as the Sigma has a sophisticated, composite keel with lead carried at maximum draught.

.

 

[dunedin]

A totally different issue. It hit nothing. A stupid engineering error. You are on shaky ground here. Bavs can do this well. How many is it now that lost their keel? Just dropped off.

None AFAIK (in terms of Bavaria cruisers)

 

[Zing]

None AFAIK (in terms of Bavaria cruisers)

I'd not be so sure about that:

Bavaria 42 Match - keels problem.........

 

[Zing]

I'm sure Thomas Andrews will be pleased to see such faith in watertight compartments coming back into fashion!

Edit: never mind, apparently he died... Titanic - Wikipedia

That ship actually didn't have a watertight compartment.

 

[Tranona]

I'd not be so sure about that:

Bavaria 42 Match - keels problem.........

The old chestnut. That was a cruiser racer, not part of the cruiser range. Different designer and method of construction. Loads of information on the incident in question, but no clear reason for the failure except that a grounding was suspected at some point. All the boats in the series were beefed up and have continued to give good service.

So Dunedin is correct in his statement.

Just to put things in perspective something like 20000 J&J designed Bavarias were built in the 14 years they were in production.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I'd not be so sure about that:

Bavaria 42 Match - keels problem.........

The facts: surely everybody remembers the keel that some years ago fell off a Bavaria Match 42 and recently all know that an almost new 90ft Oyster lost the keel. Some know about two First 40.7 but less know about a Bavaria 390, a Jeanneau 37, a Vand den Stadt 45, a Sweden yacht 42, a Fast 42 a Maxi 110, a Max Fun 35 or more recently a Comet 45 and some days ago a Davidson 50.

Nor many know that since the mid 80’s more than 75 boats have lost the keel with the loss of 28 lives.

Keels Are Falling Off >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

Not many years ago a steel Van De Stadt 45 capsized after losing the keel. Unfortunately the crew perished on the accident. Welded keels also fail, specially if not well repaired after a grounding.

In 2008, the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) set up a working party on keel losses, and they found 72 cases since 1984 of boats losing their keels.

There were no defined causes in 44.5% of cases, but only three were attributed to keel bolt failure. Other causes included welded fin failures (11), grounding collision (8), internal structure (8) and canting keel system (2)

KEELS FALLING OFF

Today the classic Bavaria Match issue gets thrown at Bavaria as you neatly demonstrated, just as the death of Angus Primrose and the loss of Demon of Hamble got thrown at Moody owners for a decade last century. I did a sailing course on a Moody in the early 2000s and we met up with my dad in his home port .... first thing he said when he got down the Moody companionway after being invited to dinner by the instructor was "Is this the Moody Angus Primrose was killed in?" - tw@t! ...

The fact is there are thousands of Bavarias, Jeanneaus, Beneteaus, Hanses, Hunters etc. providing sterling service as charter boats, coastal cruisers, and, heaven forbid, even crossing oceans.

If you want to massively reduce your chances of dying while on a boat then wear a life jacket, and the vessel types with the highest percentage of deaths are open motorboats (47 percent), kayaks (14 percent), and personal watercraft and pontoons (9 percent) ..... so statistically, using your tender, water toys or a pontoon is way more likely to kill you than a keel falling off.
Coast Guard releases summary of 2022 recreational boating statistics

Get some perspective.

 

[Zing]

The old chestnut. That was a cruiser racer, not part of the cruiser range. Different designer and method of construction. Loads of information on the incident in question, but no clear reason for the failure except that a grounding was suspected at some point. All the boats in the series were beefed up and have continued to give good service.

So Dunedin is correct in his statement.

Just to put things in perspective something like 20000 J&J designed Bavarias were built in the 14 years they were in production.

That's a bit like suggesting non-superyacht Oysters have had no keel failures . And anyway when has a performance cruiser not been a cruiser? Mobile goal posts to adapt to the argument comes to mind.

 

[dunedin]

I'd not be so sure about that:

Bavaria 42 Match - keels problem.........

That was a special race model, and previously grounded.
So any advance on NONE in terms of Bavaria cruisers

 

[flaming]

That was a special race model, and previously grounded.
So any advance on NONE in terms of Bavaria cruisers

yes. Petra, a Bavaria 390 lagoon lost its keel in 2012.

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/SRSC7diKeelFailuresdatav2-[17112].pdf

 

[dunedin]

yes. Petra, a Bavaria 390 lagoon lost its keel in 2012.

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/SRSC7diKeelFailuresdatav2-[17112].pdf

Fair enough, hadn't heard of that one. So a tally of one in a few hundred thousand boats. Still way behind Oyster in percentage failures
The vast majority of the other ones listed are race boats, and many extremely deep narrow and/or swing keels on early IMOCAS etc. Often modified or badly fabricated race boat keels.

 

[Tranona]

Fair enough, hadn't heard of that one. So a tally of one in a few hundred thousand boats. Still way behind Oyster in percentage failures
The vast majority of the other ones listed are race boats, and many extremely deep narrow and/or swing keels on early IMOCAS etc. Often modified or badly fabricated race boat keels.

Just for completeness that was pre J&J design.

 

[14K478]

That ship actually didn't have a watertight compartment.

Let's not get into that.

 

[Tranona]

That's a bit like suggesting non-superyacht Oysters have had no keel failures . And anyway when has a performance cruiser not been a cruiser? Mobile goal posts to adapt to the argument comes to mind.

No. Just clarifying that the boat was nothing to do with the cruising range. bit like saying a rally Ford Escort broke a drive shaft therefore all Escorts are suspect.

BTW already pointed out that "normal" Oysters (and Moodys, Weaterlys and so on) have foundered following collisions with other objects or ships - just have many other types and designs of boats.

 

[Tranona]

Well your own link was to a Bavaria 36 and 38 cruiser and, by accident, a sold Sigma was on the same page, so the comparison was made.

Are these the boats? From Sailboatdata:

Bavaria 38 cruiser Disp 15,400 Ballast 4,600 Draught 5.6ft 30%

Bavaria 36 Disp 11,800 Ballast 3,900 Draught 6ft 33.2%
Sigma 362 Disp 12400 Ballast 5160 Draught 6ft 41.6%

So I am baffled. Especially as the Sigma has a sophisticated, composite keel with lead carried at maximum draught.

.

You are right in that my comparison is not so good, particularly as I misquoted the draft of the Sigma.

However I was originally responding to the question that followed which was what does one get for the extra £30k. The plans in post#80 answer it probably much better than my rather long winded explanation based on the division of overall weight between the "boat" and the "ballast" where a reduction in ballast allows a larger hull and contents. In turn the reduction in ballast is facilitated by the design of bulbed high aspect ratio keels with greater draught.

A better comparison would have been with the mid 30ft boats that might have been on the same short list as the Bavarias, on the OPs original list or suggested by others . Westerly Falcon, Corsair and their derivatives, various Moodys from 34-38' Colvic Countess Malo 38 all have shallower draft in the range 1.4-1.7m but commonly around 1.5m and higher ballast ratios.

 

[Cspirit]

So the current state of affairs is that we have a 30ft Hunter. This season we also have had a chance to sail on a few different boats in the 40-45ft range - charter or friends'. We have also had a force 7-8 experience in our boat. As much as our boat survived and stood to wind well I wouldn't call it a pleasant experience. On the other hand we had a chance to be in 40knt of wind in a Jeanneau Voyage 12.5 and the level of comfort and safety it provided was incredible in comparison. At no point did we feel something was out of control or required the level of focus our boat demands when it is anything above force 5. My wife enjoyed the experience fully. Obviously size does matter and as much as this Jeanneau feels too big for our needs this is the kind of safety we are looking for. So over all our appetite for more offshore experience has grown but also for sailing comfort.

This is our first boat, so the purchase in 2020 was not of the "fully informed" kind. Actually we knew nothing about boat ownership. We liked the boat, it was within the budget, didn't require much work and that was it. Now with a few thousands miles done we know a little bit more and I hope we have a rough idea of what we may want next. So the plan would be to give it another season, sell the Hunter next winter and then look for something in the 36-38ft range. Wouldn't want to go bigger than that as our son joins us less frequently now and predominantly it will be just the 2 of us with occasional guests.

So the criteria would be:
- rather heavier than lighter
- rather more ballast than less
- Headroom of 1.85m in the saloon and the galley
- No teak
- at least 2 separate cabins
- Shaft rather than sail drive
- more suitable for sailing north than Mediterranean, we prefer colder seas and less people around and longer passages rather than siting in the marina
- Not a project boat but happy to spend 2-3 years doing some upgrading
- budget up to 60k plus the upgrades but as we are still working and planning to carry on as now for at least 5 years before we go part time/online, I could be convinced to maybe get finance for some additional amount if it gets us a better boat
- Ideally it would be a boat we wouldn't outgrow too quickly. Not planning to go sailing around the world but would like to considerably increase the amount of time spend aboard. The cruising ground being more the Channel, North Sea or Baltic than the hot places. Would love to sail to Azores once though.

So looking at the market and reading other threads it feels these boats kind of meet the criteria :

- Sigma 362 ( 38 seems too powerful for 2 people and 41 too big I think)
- Countess 37 ( seems to tick a lot of boxes )
- Moody 36 (as above)
- Malo 38 ( apart from the teak deck)

Appreciate these are older boats that may require substantial amount of money spent, so maybe I need a different approach, I am happy to be corrected if my thinking here is wrong. Any suggestions please ?

You have flagged the Westerly Corsair. I have owned one for around twenty years. The boat is safe, seaworthy, fast and very comfortable. I have been out in her in a F10 in the Med. Thre boast was fine though. As you can imagine, I was not. I have sailed her in the North Sea, the Channel, Biscay and down to Turkey with a few years in Greece. I have supreme confidence in the design and I would still have her if if personal circumstance were different. However, I have given her to my daughter and she now sails her with her young children to Brittany as we did when our kids were young.

The boat that your have identified appears to be in excellent condition. I paid £45k for mine over 20 years ago. If you get this one you’ll not regret it. Bob

 

[doug748]

Further to post 101, here is a photo of Eric the Viking's keel after to collision with a rock:





I have seen it suggested that a malleable lead keel will absorb the shock of a collision and may make the difference between damage and the boat being lost. Is this the likely reason that Eric managed to sail on? Any ace mathematicians/engineers able to calculate the forces involved?


.

 

[baart]

I wonder if it is possible to discuss boats without it ultimately getting to Bavarias losing keels thank you all for contributions so far. Not that I know now what to buy next

Thinking about Bavarias though there are several models in the 36 to 38ft range. Which ones should one avoid?

 

[Seven Spades]

I owned a Starlight 39 for 12 years or so and they are brilliant boats. However for the med I think that a modern plastic fantastic is probably better if that is really going to be yoiur crusiing grounds. The starlight is heavy and safe but it's watertanks are tiny and the space inside is limited for the length. If you were plaing to keep the boat in the UK that you would have my full support. For your budget you could get a niuce spacious Bavaria and buy some really good ground tackle.

Most people here will choke on this suggestion but you will spend a lot of time at anchor and you need large fuel tanks and water tanks. Possioble space for a watermaker and you need to to be airy. The med is very different to the UK and Baltic.