Torqueedo new Travel outboards for daysailing

[Skylark]

Tbh - we really don't enjoy the petrol outboard - we have it serviced each year but sometimes it just didn't start etc and the service engineers said ours prob will last for this season but needing a new one afterwards

My first inclination would be to find another service engineer.

Worst-case scenario would be top-end clean/overhaul, clean or replace carb, replace ignition system. Good as new.

The best advice usually comes from those with relevant experience or similar boats in your waters.

Hope you’re both well and enjoying your lovely boat

 

[fredrussell]

I like Tranona’s idea of a pod with bigger (than OB) power bank, but the trouble with that is it’s a nuisance to move it on to the next boat and after the big financial outlay you would want to, surely? At least with an electric OB it’s simple to do just that, and there will always be a Next Boat!

 

[onesea]

Outboards

Some time ago I had 6hp Tomhatsu on a 2.5 ton yacht. Once past 6 months old it was never reliable.

If your going to replace change brands is my tip and what I would do.

Outboard sizing one big reason for keeping to 6hp not bigger is weight, 6hp weighs approx 25 kg
10hp weighs 45 kg those 20kg are significant when it comes to lifting it and boat trim.

Yes a 10 hp will give you all the power you need and some, 6hp will just enough, boats are a compromise.
We managed 2 years with a little 3.5 hp on our 2.5 ton boat, we sailed allot and motor sailed when necessary.
A new born was the reason for the "upgrade" to 6hp engine.

Going electrical:
Consider replacing your side screens/ spray doggers with solar panels.
I think solar arches are ugly heavy and weight at stern in wrong place.

Can you live with 2 hours range?

Let's face it even if you squeezed on board 400w of solar. Even on a sunny day your going to struggle to recharge 1 hours motoring. Yes they would recharge over the weekdays ready for the next weekend.

Every extra hour of motoring seems to come in at 10kg weight.Adding generators etc means more weight complexity etc

Probably for your average day/ weekend sail yes 2 hours is enough. However you wish to explore further?

An alternative
might be go electric, for main engine. Accept 2 hours motoring range.

Carry as a back up a small 3.5hp and 10lts fuel that will get you home slowly if electric runs out.

I guess your passage plans are done for 3-4 knots boat speed?
A 3.5hp should get you that in flat ish water. You can boost the speed allot in most conditions by motor sailing.

I would actually use the small outboard on my tender so I know it's reliable. However I note that is already electric in your case.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Until theres a radical change in battery energy density, electric aux power is going to be tough for most. The very thought of putting a petrol outboard into the locker is an anathema. We’ve just got rid of ours for en electric tender motor, and it’s lovely not to smell fuel everywhere. Only one half of the boat stinks of fuel. To my mind, the best way of getting a viable electrical installation is to start with the right boat, maintain your rig meticulously, and have plenty of time.

 

[steve yates]

My first inclination would be to find another service engineer.

Worst-case scenario would be top-end clean/overhaul, clean or replace carb, replace ignition system. Good as new.

The best advice usually comes from those with relevant experience or similar boats in your waters.

Hope you’re both well and enjoying your lovely boat

Sell it and buya brand new one if you dont go electric. My engineer told me to do that two years ago, said I would get £600 for it so for another £600 I would have a brwnd new tohatsu with electric charging. I didnt listen and now its totally buggered and I am still buying a brand new one!

 

[Skylark]

Sell it and buya brand new one if you dont go electric. My engineer told me to do that two years ago, said I would get £600 for it so for another £600 I would have a brwnd new tohatsu with electric charging. I didnt listen and now its totally buggered and I am still buying a brand new one!

Interesting comment, Steve. I’ve always believed outboards to be virtually indestructible and only die by lack of use or neglect.

What was the reason for suggesting to sell it and why now is it totally buggered?

 

[Marceline]

My first inclination would be to find another service engineer.

Worst-case scenario would be top-end clean/overhaul, clean or replace carb, replace ignition system. Good as new.

The best advice usually comes from those with relevant experience or similar boats in your waters.

Hope you’re both well and enjoying your lovely boat

Thanks so much Skylark and yes we're well thanks (and hoping you're too and enjoying the season)

Sadly our Tohatsu was quite corroded (and some other things too) when it was serviced and needed some rebuilding (they're good engineers and were recommended) and I think it's because its quite old and sitting in the well for the past few seasons hasn't helped. They think it'll be safe enough for this season, but this is one of the reasons we're trying to figure out something else.

As we don't want it to get worse our plan is to take it out of the well at the end of each day, wash it down with freshwater and carefully put it down below and lash it to the post. Obvs not ideal and heavy/awkward, but we don't want the engine to get much worse. So this is one of (tbh many) reasons we'd love to get a lighter electric outboard for the main engine, one that we can take out at the end of the day's sail and break down/take it home.

We do much prefer electric motors (for many reasons), and you know how awkward our setup is with the petrol tank (we've been taking it out of the cockpit locker and having it on the side at the back), so not having to do any of that if we can and not have petrol onboard would be a big plus.

But we're not taking the plunge yet with the new Torqueedo model (they're not available yet in the UK), so we'll be going back on the water with our Tohastsu and doing like others have suggested some evaluations with running the petrol on lower power/time limited and also seeing how our 1kw electric fares in moving the boat in the tidal waters. But yeh, I think if we can safely work on the waters with those evaluations I think we'll consider getting the '5hp' Torqueedo and retire/store at home the Tohatsu

 

[Marceline]

Sell it and buya brand new one if you dont go electric. My engineer told me to do that two years ago, said I would get £600 for it so for another £600 I would have a brwnd new tohatsu with electric charging. I didnt listen and now its totally buggered and I am still buying a brand new one!

sadly ours has also gone past the point selling it on as well :/

 

[Marceline]

I like Tranona’s idea of a pod with bigger (than OB) power bank, but the trouble with that is it’s a nuisance to move it on to the next boat and after the big financial outlay you would want to, surely? At least with an electric OB it’s simple to do just that, and there will always be a Next Boat!

Hi Fred - tbh we'd also prefer to do that to, but where we are based there's very long waiting lists for marinas (we could be waiting many years) and being on a swing mooring makes recharging onboard power banks tricky.

And as you said, if we do get an electric OB setup it'd make it easier to take it with us if we do get say a small catamarn as our next boat

 

[Marceline]

Outboards

Some time ago I had 6hp Tomhatsu on a 2.5 ton yacht. Once past 6 months old it was never reliable.

If your going to replace change brands is my tip and what I would do.

Outboard sizing one big reason for keeping to 6hp not bigger is weight, 6hp weighs approx 25 kg
10hp weighs 45 kg those 20kg are significant when it comes to lifting it and boat trim.

Yes a 10 hp will give you all the power you need and some, 6hp will just enough, boats are a compromise.
We managed 2 years with a little 3.5 hp on our 2.5 ton boat, we sailed allot and motor sailed when necessary.
A new born was the reason for the "upgrade" to 6hp engine.

Going electrical:
Consider replacing your side screens/ spray doggers with solar panels.
I think solar arches are ugly heavy and weight at stern in wrong place.

Can you live with 2 hours range?

Let's face it even if you squeezed on board 400w of solar. Even on a sunny day your going to struggle to recharge 1 hours motoring. Yes they would recharge over the weekdays ready for the next weekend.

Every extra hour of motoring seems to come in at 10kg weight.Adding generators etc means more weight complexity etc

Probably for your average day/ weekend sail yes 2 hours is enough. However you wish to explore further?

An alternative
might be go electric, for main engine. Accept 2 hours motoring range.

Carry as a back up a small 3.5hp and 10lts fuel that will get you home slowly if electric runs out.

I guess your passage plans are done for 3-4 knots boat speed?
A 3.5hp should get you that in flat ish water. You can boost the speed allot in most conditions by motor sailing.

I would actually use the small outboard on my tender so I know it's reliable. However I note that is already electric in your case.

thanks so much for those and some really good points and suggestions

As others had mentioned using the sails more and being more cautious with passage planning / factoring in reduced motoring capacity / working with the tides/winds/lack of winds is def how we're wanting to approach this.

As I'd mentioned we're not planning on anything more than daysails (which, tbh maybe where some of the confusion is as when I am thinking 'day sails' its slipping the mooring, heading off for a few hours, maybe anchor, and then back to the mooring, get everything off the boat to the car and head home) - so longer trips around the Island - much as we'd love to do them will prob only happen if/when we've got much more experience, and tbh weekends for us away this year we're only planning for a couple of times this season. So we're mostly planning to be on Menai Strait sailing, but would, like to venture out around Puffin Island/Conwy Bay if the weather/tides looks safe enough

The Swellies though is our main concern, but also Caernarfon Bar (which we've never gone over as yet) is also another safety concern - we'd also like to venture out there and sail on the West side of the Island but tbh happy to drop anchor at Fort Belan/Abermenai and head back for this season and wait until we're more experienced before attempting the Bar (either with our petrol ob or if we get this new electric Torqueedo)

So yes, 'aiming for 2 hour limits to motoring' (but having more charge remaining in reserve) and using the sails and the tides is most definately what we're wanting to do and not having to deal with a petrol ob would be exactly what we're hoping for. And being cautious and only really venturing out further if our sailing skills/working with the tides hopefully grows.

 

[Supertramp]

To chip in with some feedback from using a Torqeedo 1003 with two batteries as main propulsion on an Eagle 525 (17ft and about 800kg) on Windermere.

On the plus side:

It works with a light boat
The range indicator is really useful.
You can easily lift it out and in my case plug the outboard well - a massive plus.
I bought mine secondhand for well under half the new cost (some people don't get on with them!).

On the minus side:

Rigging it all up in a crisis is a bit of a faff (you do learn to do everything under sail).
It struggled in a headwind and seas even on a lake. Windermere can get lively!
The range dropped massively above about 250w of delivered power (about 3knts in flat water).
The batteries decline with age. Mine are over 10 years old and probably below 50% of the original figure.
I had some fun changing shear pins which are soft and need to be as there are plastics in the gearbox. If the shear pin does bend, they are a pig to get out.

I now use it for my tender (it takes even more energy to drive a small inflatable than a small yacht!).

Verdict?

Great technology and so much more peaceful than petrol. Good on a tender where a failure is mitigated by oars (it has hiccupped once or twice in over 10 years). I would still hesitate at the new cost today despite enjoying mine for years.

For your area of sailing I would not like to have to factor in my remaining range into judgements about making tidal gates or battling adverse wind and seas. The security an engine offers is diluted when the range is too restricted.

 

[Marceline]

Thanks Supertramp and lots of food for thought/good advice and suggestions there

and this especially was something I didn't know

"I now use it for my tender (it takes even more energy to drive a small inflatable than a small yacht!)."

 

[steve yates]

Interesting comment, Steve. I’ve always believed outboards to be virtually indestructible and only die by lack of use or neglect.

What was the reason for suggesting to sell it and why now is it totally buggered?

It came with my boat when I bought it in 2015, so it was already second hand then. Had numerous issues with the carb and other bits and sods ever since.
Its never been trustworthy at low revs.
After covid outboards were difficult to get for love nor money for a good while and resale prices were high, hence the advice.

Its a mariner 5 and has never inspired any confidence

The pull start had jammed and various parts inside were seized and rusted. To be fair, I suspect this was caused by wash throwing the boat against the pilings and dropping the bracket, so the ob spent a few months in the down position and was probably hit by wash quite often, getting salt water inside. That is just a suspicion.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

To chip in with some feedback from using a Torqeedo 1003 with two batteries as main propulsion on an Eagle 525 (17ft and about 800kg) on Windermere.


The batteries decline with age. Mine are over 10 years old and probably below 50% of the original figure.

I was about to buy an electric stand alone lawn mower . Everything was looking good until I found some reviews about battery longevity . So opted for a cabled mower and
have done away with petrol.

Lithium still look good in comparison with LA battery banks in boats with regard to longevity , weight, and increased power storage .

 

[Tranona]

Lithium still look good in comparison with LA battery banks in boats with regard to longevity , weight, and increased power storage .

While that may be true of lithium for domestic use not sure about the $*v banks used for propulsion. Have not seen any hard data perhaps because there are relatively few in operation and mostly recent ie not a lot of history.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

While that may be true of lithium for domestic use not sure about the $*v banks used for propulsion. Have not seen any hard data perhaps because there are relatively few in operation and mostly recent ie not a lot of history.

We have 2 electric cars, obviously Li batteries. The trick is to set maximum charge to 80% and only go below 20 if you have to. Charge to 100% only if you need the range. 5000 cycles is attainable if used like that. Which means ideally a larger capacity than you originally thought.

 

[JRCO26]

I should make clear, I haven't had the chance to try a new Travel XP on the water yet. But I did spend quite a lot of time familiarising myself with how it works on various trade stands over the last few months. Apparently UK stock is now on its way, should be available mid May.

Anyway this new motor - the Torqeedo Travel XP - from Torqeedo is rated at 1.6kW power output (45% more than the 1103), with a 1425Wh battery capacity (55% more than the 1103). Probably the most welcome news is they've got rid of all connection cables, the battery aligns itself as you mount it and connects a bit like a battery drill. There are also improvements to the tilting mechanism, including shallow water drive settings, and the tiller can now be tilted to vertical without falling off (only relevant to a few users, but those few will be happy!). There's also a colour display and better interactivity with smart phones etc.

Your main question: is 1.6kW powerful enough to drive a 24ft boat, that weighs perhaps 2 tonnes when fully loaded, into adverse conditions? The answer is really "depends how adverse, and how fast you want to go". I would say 1.6kW is sufficient for almost any conditions you're likely to choose to go out in, in a Jaguar 24, and quite a bit above those conditions. But will it push her directly to windward against a F8 on the nose with breaking 6ft swells... no. I'm not sure what motor would. I'd guess at a top speed (with an XP) of somewhere around 5 knots in calm conditions, so will it push her against an adverse tide of more than 5 knots... no.

I have a 6kW pod motor on a (4 tonne) Sadler 29 and if it's flat calm we tend to motor at around 4 knots using roughly 1.5kW power. I don't know the Jaguar 24 particularly well but it looks quite slippery and at 2 tonnes it will definitely need less power to do 4 knots, or go faster on 1.5kW (hence my guess of 5 knots flat out). If there's any wind at all we are electric motorsailing the Sadler, not "pure motoring", and it's remarkable how few Watts are needed to point a little higher and increase boatspeed half a knot. If it's very lumpy at the entrance to Portsmouth harbour (which it often is nowadays, thanks presumably to the dredging for the aircraft carriers) we might use as much as 3kW, briefly, but I can't remember a time we've wanted (needed) more than that. If I was fitting it again I'd consider a 3kW pod instead, but there's not a lot of difference in price so probably not!

So for a very high percentage of the time, and assuming that you apply basic seamanship in terms of working out the tides and listening to weather forecasts, a 1.6kW electric outboard would be sufficient, and definitely far nicer than anything that involved petrol. Quiet, smooth, fume-free, instant torque from zero revs, no starter cord to pull, no carb to gum up, etc. The downside is that you can't pour more petrol in the tank, so you will tend to go slower (to be more economical) but electric motoring is really rather pleasant so you don't usually mind if voyages under motor take a little longer. I think we are meant to enjoy our time at sea?

Whether the price is justifiable is a personal thing, but doubters never seem to attribute any value to the improved experience, they simply make a direct comparison of power output with a petrol outboard. Nor do the doubters allow for the savings over time (fuel to some extent, but mostly servicing/maintenance) compared to the upfront costs.

As retailers we wish nobody had ever started the "xxhp equivalent" thing, because it's misleading and often seems to gets re-written (or interpreted) as "equal to xxhp". Then we are stuck with it because if we say lower figures it sounds like our identical outboards are less powerful than everyone elses... Technically 1kW is about 1.34hp but with very different delivery characteristics. For displacement speeds (such as driving a yacht) we'd say it's more like a factor of 2, possibly even a bit more than that. So calling a 1kW outboard "equivalent" to 3hp is not ridiculous in terms of what it achieves, for a dinghy, dayboat, or small yacht, at displacement speeds. At planing speeds we'd actually say the conversion factor's a bit high, 6kW doesn't really seem to do much if anything more than a 6hp petrol (for higher speed craft). But there are so many variables, such as propeller and hull design, or how much weed's on the bottom, to take into account.

And on small outboard-powered yachts there is another factor in specifying petrol power outboards, which needs to be considered when comparing them with electric outboards. Small petrol outboards especially single cylinder ones are pretty horrible at high revs. So if you "need" 3-4hp you might buy/specify a 6 so that you can get 3-4hp at a bit above half throttle (where the revs, ie noise and vibration, are bearable). The smallest two cylinder petrol outboard anybody makes now is 8hp, so you might specify that - even if way above what's needed - simply to get something that's a bit smoother. As you say you've never used your 6 flat out... so you've never actually used 6hp. If it's a bit knackered it probably doesn't make 6hp flat out either. But the point is you can run an electric motor flat out and it will be quieter/smoother than a petrol motor at any revs (other than zero!). You can use all of an electric motor's output quite happily, but probably won't use all of a petrol motor's output (in a well in the back of the cockpit small yacht scenario) because it's probably over-specced and if you do use all of it you'll go deaf and every single bolt on your boat will come undone.

As you already have the ePropulsion Spirit, and as somebody else suggested, why not try that on your Jaguar 24 for the weekend? It will at least give you an idea if it's viable. If you find 1kW does most of what you want then 1.6kW will do what you want with a healthy/sensible reserve.

Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd
NB in the interests of clarity I should say we do have a commercial interest, in that we sell Torqeedo, ePropulsion, TEMO and ThrustMe electric outboards, amongst other things. But that does also mean we've used them, and spoken to many customers who've bought/used them too.

Will a 12v system recharge the new Torqeedo Travel XP onboard (via solar charging the batteries)? Or do you have to do this 24 / 48V thing?

 

[nestawayboats]

Will a 12v system recharge the new Torqeedo Travel XP onboard (via solar charging the batteries)? Or do you have to do this 24 / 48V thing?

Torqeedo offer (well they're on the price list, not available yet) both 12V and solar charging cables for the new Travel XP motor.

I'm not sure if the DCC conversion is done by an external box that's part of the 12V/Solar charger (like ePropulsion) or inside the battery (like the older Torqeedo Travel batteries), but the user doesn't have to worry about it anyway. You won't have to convert it from 12V to whatever the battery wants (nominal 44V), their system/accessories do it.

Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd