Torqueedo new Travel outboards for daysailing

[Chiara’s slave]

A Dragonfly might well regenerate, but do we want the drag? 6 kn is run of the mill stuff for us, it’s a dull sail if we don’t see double digits at least momentarily. But would we still do that dragging our prop? I think I’d rather cover the boat in solar. A question of how much regen we can make, against size of battery. Big battery, we’d recharge by solar, and with shore power in marinas if on a trip?

 

[Tranona]

A Dragonfly might well regenerate, but do we want the drag? 6 kn is run of the mill stuff for us, it’s a dull sail if we don’t see double digits at least momentarily. But would we still do that dragging our prop? I think I’d rather cover the boat in solar. A question of how much regen we can make, against size of battery. Big battery, we’d recharge by solar, and with shore power in marinas if on a trip?

No such thing a a free lunch!. The only reason a Dragonfly is a candidate for regen is that for its size it can attain consistently the sorts of speeds through the water where meaningful power can be generated. However "meaningful" is a relevant term and actually the amount is tiny in comparison with the amount consumed when powering the boat never mind the drop in speed resulting from the additional drag.

That is why I suggested regen is a red herring. This is a classic case of incremental product development - adding features that cost little but might add sufficient benefit to attract new users. In my view this one does not so stays in the gimmick box. However the history of electric outboards has in general been a success once the basic proposition was shown to work for enough users. Progressively adding range and power widens the potential market and this thread illustrates the process well. Is the latest iteration sufficient to capture this small sub 25' weekend cruiser market?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

No such thing a a free lunch!. The only reason a Dragonfly is a candidate for regen is that for its size it can attain consistently the sorts of speeds through the water where meaningful power can be generated. However "meaningful" is a relevant term and actually the amount is tiny in comparison with the amount consumed when powering the boat never mind the drop in speed resulting from the additional drag.

That is why I suggested regen is a red herring. This is a classic case of incremental product development - adding features that cost little but might add sufficient benefit to attract new users. In my view this one does not so stays in the gimmick box. However the history of electric outboards has in general been a success once the basic proposition was shown to work for enough users. Progressively adding range and power widens the potential market and this thread illustrates the process well. Is the latest iteration sufficient to capture this small sub 25' weekend cruiser market?

That was broadly what I was thinking. If we lost 2 knots for a few hundred watts, regen is pointless. You can bet your last dollar on why we chose the boat, why spoil it? Fortunately we could just lift it out, like the current outboard.

 

[Marceline]

I guess you've then always got that option if your battery charge is low and you're needing to top up a little you can always drop it in for a while

 

[Bouba]

Unless the wind dies when you are several miles out to sea...the battery will probably be enough for all your needs and then some....and a spare battery is small, light and compact (although expensive) for peace of mind. Of course only real world experience is going to tell you....I’m pretty sure that some retailers were letting customers try before they buy the previous model

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Unless the wind dies when you are several miles out to sea...the battery will probably be enough for all your needs and then some....and a spare battery is small, light and compact (although expensive) for peace of mind. Of course only real world experience is going to tell you....I’m pretty sure that some retailers were letting customers try before they buy the previous model

Those are problems for working age people. If we are becalmed offshore, we’d get out a book each. It’s rare, we can sail after a fashion in 2-3kn

 

[Marceline]

sounds bliss

 

[Marceline]

I'd been thinking more this morning about suggestions to improve solar trickle charge capacity and realised we hardly use the 12v lead acid that's currently charged over the week by an old small solar panel over the engine well.

We've no autopilot, no fridge, our lights we usually use LEDs (not house lights) with their own small battery banks, no chartplotter (we use our phones and also have some small charge banks to keep them topped up), no wind instruments (sadly) - so there's only really our depth indicator and our VHS (but we do have a portable one for this season)

So I'm wondering, if I swapped the lead acid for a marine grade lithium 12v and trickle charged that to capacity through the week, that could also be a useful extra

The Torqeedo can be charged while its running by 12v, so I could get a cable to there from the new battery to begin to top that up as we use it. That could give us about 2.5kw initial capacity (I'd be sure not to let the house battery get too depleted etc)

If we've a 2nd Torqueedo battery I can then swap that over as/when the 1st Travel battery gets low, take that down below and recharge it from our EcoFlowDelta type portable . In 'theory' this coud give us about (very roughly)

2 x Troqueedo Travel batteries = 3kw capacity
1 new house battery = 1kw capacity
1 'jackery/ecoflow' type portable power pack/solar inverter = 1kw capacity

5kw of (mostly portable) capacity I can charge at home or if we overnight in a local marina as guests

Then I could hopefully start to make further upgrades next season etc:

- Solar arch to help up our house battery charging through the week
- additional EcoFlow storage (they do 1kw portable banks that can charge off the main bank up to 3kw - wouldn't want to take them every time but nice to have if going for a longer trip)

So in theory, I could have nearly everything portable (so we don't have to leave expensive things on the boat), have a new house battery but with much more capacity charging through the week, and have about 20+nm pure motoring capacity (very rough estimate etc ) which hopefully will be more with working with tides/what winds there are

I know the above is pricey (a new 6hp Tohatsu is £1200) but I don't have to get it all at once

Initial price for the Torqueedo is £3200 approx and I'm not sure of the house battery price, but will want to get a safe one for marine etc

But I think even those two would cover our initial needs (last season was us happily up and down the Strait following the tides so we'll be doing a fair bit more of that)

And theres always our old petrol ob that we'll store at home should we want to go out further until we build up more battery capacity

So, I think this could work

I guess a next question is any recommends for a lithium marine house battery to swap with our lead acid thats in our cockpit locker ?

 

[fredrussell]

I’m a big fan of Lithium power, but that seems like a very expensive way to go about things, and 20 miles of range doesn’t seem a huge amount to me. I have a Torqeedo OB for the tender and it’s a thing of wonderment, but my previous 26 footer had a modern Yamaha 4str outboard that never missed a beat. If you’re really opposed to petrol outboard and you don’t mind the outlay, nowt wrong with your plan though.

Fogstar make decent LiFePo batteries that have good reviews. Eco-worthy are cheaper, but no Bluetooth and cell heating. If you’re handy with a soldering iron, it’s cheaper by far to make your own battery- but do your research well!

 

[ridgy]

Wow that's a lot of money to have two unreliable engines.
If you must go this route then I would definitely throw in the small suitcase generator as well, only £218 at present, enough for your 180W charger:

Clarke IG950D 0.8kW Petrol Inverter Generator - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

 

[Marceline]

thanks for the suggestions

 

[nestawayboats]

Wow that's a lot of money to have two unreliable engines.
If you must go this route then I would definitely throw in the small suitcase generator as well, only £218 at present, enough for your 180W charger:

Clarke IG950D 0.8kW Petrol Inverter Generator - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

"Two unreliable engines"?

Electric outboard users generally report much better reliability than petrol outboard users, plus general ease of use inc push button starting etc. With electric motors there is no starter cord to pull, no choke to fiddle with, no warm-up period when it might stall, no carburettor to gum up. The few issues we do hear of with electric outboards are usually connector-related, of which most can be resolved (and probably could have been avoided) by the use of contact spray.

Re petrol outboards most "unreliability" seems to be carburettor-related. And lack of use. Customers who use their petrol outboards more frequently - even heavy users such as hire fleets - generally seem to have fewer problems. E10 fuel does not seem to have helped, especially when petrol outboards are left in storage for more than a couple of weeks, if any fuel is left in the system. Smallest petrol outboards are worst-affected. Draining the carb - or running motor with fuel switched off until it stops - before storage solves many of those issues. I haven't tried myself, but have heard from customers that using alkylate petrol (eg Aspen) - whilst vastly more expensive - reduces the incidence of carb issues. (Infrequent users of small outboards use very little fuel, so spending £30 on 5 litres of petrol, instead of £7.50 or so off the forecourt, is cheaper overall if it saves going to a mechanic even once a year.)

Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd

 

[Tranona]

Wow that's a lot of money to have two unreliable engines.
If you must go this route then I would definitely throw in the small suitcase generator as well, only £218 at present, enough for your 180W charger:

Clarke IG950D 0.8kW Petrol Inverter Generator - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

Why would one want to have one of those horrible things on a small boat when you have just spent thousands on electric propulsion in order to get rid of a petrol motor?

This thing is growing like topsy. First it is a simple job of an electric outboard which is actually not really a suitable alternative so the next stage to offset the major disadvantage is to buy another battery (£1200) and then a lithium back-up to help charge the spare battery, then festoon the boat with solar panels on a gantry - have you seen the cost of building this and the incongruity of such a thing on a 24' boat. Then maybe a lithium booster pack as a back up or a petrol driven generator.

Not only have you spent almost as much as the boat is worth, but you still end up with inferior functionality. Maybe the answer if you a versatile small cruiser is to buy a more suitable boat like a Sadler 26 with a decent inboard.

 

[Bouba]

Why would one want to have one of those horrible things on a small boat when you have just spent thousands on electric propulsion in order to get rid of a petrol motor?

This thing is growing like topsy. First it is a simple job of an electric outboard which is actually not really a suitable alternative so the next stage to offset the major disadvantage is to buy another battery (£1200) and then a lithium back-up to help charge the spare battery, then festoon the boat with solar panels on a gantry - have you seen the cost of building this and the incongruity of such a thing on a 24' boat. Then maybe a lithium booster pack as a back up or a petrol driven generator.

Not only have you spent almost as much as the boat is worth, but you still end up with inferior functionality. Maybe the answer if you a versatile small cruiser is to buy a more suitable boat like a Sadler 26 with a decent inboard.

You can’t argue the merits of electric outboards purely on cost....the OP is willing to invest (upto a point) ...his only question is function.
The cost of electric outboards are excessive... and I can’t yet detect a downward trend....but I was happy to make the switch

 

[ridgy]

Why would one want to have one of those horrible things on a small boat when you have just spent thousands on electric propulsion in order to get rid of a petrol motor?

This thing is growing like topsy. First it is a simple job of an electric outboard which is actually not really a suitable alternative so the next stage to offset the major disadvantage is to buy another battery (£1200) and then a lithium back-up to help charge the spare battery, then festoon the boat with solar panels on a gantry - have you seen the cost of building this and the incongruity of such a thing on a 24' boat. Then maybe a lithium booster pack as a back up or a petrol driven generator.

Not only have you spent almost as much as the boat is worth, but you still end up with inferior functionality. Maybe the answer if you a versatile small cruiser is to buy a more suitable boat like a Sadler 26 with a decent inboard.

I agree it's completely absurd but having spent that much to go 20 miles, why not have a little insurance policy tucked away in a locker.

 

[ridgy]

"Two unreliable engines"?

One is unreliable in the sense that it may not start.
The other is unreliable in the sense that it may not get you where you need to go.

 

[Marceline]

tbf my idea is to get a propulsion I much prefer, albeit at a greater cost, and add to it as I go along to increase capacity to match our needs/ability to venture further

I could be spending the same on a petrol outboard and a new suite of nav instruments at a similar price, but I'd much prefer (for many reasons) to move away from petrol

plenty of people seem to add solar to their boats, its not really an unusual thing and I am only planning to add as/when it looks viable

my initial setup would be a standalone outboard (that I can use for my tender so can also sell on my current ePropulsion to put towards the cost), and uprating my house battery (which don't seem too expensive), and then either later on a 2nd Torqueedo battery or a cheaper mid size 'jackery' - so that would be 3-4kw

anything extra would be a bonus, and tbh a couple of charged up Torqueedo batteries and a 10kilo jackery on/off the boat at the weekend seems doable (we've been doing similar as we'd no water for a while - we were taking 20 litres of water in bottles onto the mooring but thanks to lots of suggestions on here for this season we've got the tank clean and can use that for washing etc)

and as mentioned - we're not planning going far for quite a while (more because we don't like leaving our aging cat at home on their own) so it's day sailing for us for the next few years with occasional overnights and we'd enjoy those years more if we can do it without petrol

 

[Bouba]

tbf my idea is to get a propulsion I much prefer, albeit at a greater cost, and add to it as I go along to increase capacity to match our needs/ability to venture further

I could be spending the same on a petrol outboard and a new suite of nav instruments at a similar price, but I'd much prefer (for many reasons) to move away from petrol

plenty of people seem to add solar to their boats, its not really an unusual thing and I am only planning to add as/when it looks viable

my initial setup would be a standalone outboard (that I can use for my tender so can also sell on my current ePropulsion to put towards the cost), and uprating my house battery (which don't seem too expensive), and then either later on a 2nd Torqueedo battery or a cheaper mid size 'jackery' - so that would be 3-4kw

anything extra would be a bonus, and tbh a couple of charged up Torqueedo batteries and a 10kilo jackery on/off the boat at the weekend seems doable (we've been doing similar as we'd no water for a while - we were taking 20 litres of water in bottles onto the mooring but thanks to lots of suggestions on here for this season we've got the tank clean and can use that for washing etc)

and as mentioned - we're not planning going far for quite a while (more because we don't like leaving our aging cat at home on their own) so it's day sailing for us for the next few years with occasional overnights and we'd enjoy those years more if we can do it without petrol

I think that you have a sensible plan....and as an added bonus I could solve your cat problem as well

 

[Tranona]

plenty of people seem to add solar to their boats, its not really an unusual thing and I am only planning to add as/when it looks viable

They do, but primarily to boost their domestic power capacity, not for propulsion. The amount you can add to a 24' boat is limited by the free surface area available. A gantry to support meaningful size panels is just out of proportion on a 24' boat in size, cost and the negative impact on stability.

You cannot avoid the fundamental lack of energy density with current batteries nor the high cost (in all senses) of adding capacity.

You may well be able to work within the limitations, but suspect "range anxiety" will take on a new meaning when you start asking the question "will I be able to get back" every time you want to use the boat!

 

[nestawayboats]

You can’t argue the merits of electric outboards purely on cost....the OP is willing to invest (upto a point) ...his only question is function.
The cost of electric outboards are excessive... and I can’t yet detect a downward trend....but I was happy to make the switch

Absolutely. You have to want the benefits of electric propulsion - silence, smoothness, pushbutton operation, lack of fumes, etc - and accept its downsides (range, even if not limited by finances, will be restricted by weight and volume of batteries), to justify the expenditure. Many thousands (in the UK alone) have already decided it's worth it at the smaller end of the market, eg motor for their tender.

Re the prices coming down I think they have, if you compare eggs with eggs, and include inflation. The "1kW class" outboards get a lot more battery capacity now than a few years ago. Out of interest, I dug out a 2010 Torqeedo brochure. The then-very-new-and-exciting Travel 503 had a 500W motor and a 300Wh battery, total weight 12.7kg. The launched-this-year ePropulsion eLite has a 500W motor with a 378Wh (26% more) battery, total weight 7.5kg. I can't for the life of me remember what one paid for a 503 in 2010, but am 99% sure it was more than £1000, and 100% sure it was more than £1000 in today's money (RRP on the 2024 ePropulsion eLite is £995). The smallest battery Torqeedo offer today is 916Wh, which comes with the 900W 903 model, RRP £1919 (about £1150 in 2010 money).

Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd