Torqueedo new Travel outboards for daysailing

[Snowgoose-1]

Just wondering why electric outboards are so expensive. Much less gubbins
and complexities than a petrol outboard. There are cordless garden mowers that,
price wise , compare well with petrol mowers.

 

[Bouba]

Just wondering why electric outboards are so expensive. Much less gubbins
and complexities than a petrol outboard. There are cordless garden mowers that,
price wise , compare well with petrol mowers.

I guess the cost of putting electricity into the sea and making sure it stays there bumps up the design costs

 

[fredrussell]

Just wondering why electric outboards are so expensive. Much less gubbins
and complexities than a petrol outboard. There are cordless garden mowers that,
price wise , compare well with petrol mowers.

Economies of scale. Honda, etc sell loads more outboards than Torqeedo.

 

[Stemar]

Watching the price mount with all the "must haves", I can't help wondering if the most cost-effective solution, especially for sailing in an area where a reliable engine with a decent range is pretty important, wouldn't be something like this

Mitsubishi Marine engine 9hp K2AD​

€2.950,00

Mitsubishi Marine engine 9hp K2AD - AB Marine service

Yes, you need to arrange engine beds and fit a shaft, prop and fuel tank, but it'd give you a range only limited by the fuel you can carry - a 10 gal tank would be plenty, and "unlimited" electricity

 

[Tranona]

That is an interesting prospect. However it is an "off" brand from Holland and not available here except as a private import.. None of the other Mitsubishi marinisers such as Vetus and Sole touch that series of engines which I guess are pretty unrefined compared with a Beta 10 or the more modern M Line Vetus. By the time you have imported it, built engine beds, installed a stern tube and P bracket plus all the installation gear you wont get much change out of £6k.

That was the market the Yanmar 1GM was aimed at, but many of the boats like the Jaguar 24 - light dinghy derived coastal cruisers simply did not justify the cost or complexity of an inboard installation so the outboard in a well was the least worst alternative.

If you really want to go electric on this type of boat then a pod with a 48v battery bank is the best solution on the market. Costs comparable with a decent inboard installation and a big improvement in both range and speed. In many ways it is similar to the choice between outboard petrol and inboard diesel on this size of boat. It is a step change with a price and complexity tack to reflect that.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That is an interesting prospect. However it is an "off" brand from Holland and not available here except as a private import.. None of the other Mitsubishi marinisers such as Vetus and Sole touch that series of engines which I guess are pretty unrefined compared with a Beta 10 or the more modern M Line Vetus. By the time you have imported it, built engine beds, installed a stern tube and P bracket plus all the installation gear you wont get much change out of £6k.

That was the market the Yanmar 1GM was aimed at, but many of the boats like the Jaguar 24 - light dinghy derived coastal cruisers simply did not justify the cost or complexity of an inboard installation so the outboard in a well was the least worst alternative.

If you really want to go electric on this type of boat then a pod with a 48v battery bank is the best solution on the market. Costs comparable with a decent inboard installation and a big improvement in both range and speed. In many ways it is similar to the choice between outboard petrol and inboard diesel on this size of boat. It is a step change with a price and complexity tack to reflect that.

We are interested in all up weight, for obvious reasons. I think, if we do this, it will be with a self built battery, so we can have the shape we need to fit in the available space, and optimise weight distribution. Another 2 years out of our Honda, we’ll look at that as a research opportunity.

 

[Stemar]

I only picked that one as a potentially suitable inboard diesel, not realising it was abroad. There are places in the UK that do second hand and reconditioned engines, it's just a matter of finding a suitable one. The only bit of the job that I'd hesitate about is the stern tube, but only because I've never done anything like it before. Beds are pretty straightforward - some timber with plenty of GRP over it.

Of course, suitable is a very flexible term. When the 8hp MD1 on my Snapdragon died, it was replaced with a 28hp VP2003, which was far too big, but it was free, which made it suitable . Interestingly, the 2003 plus a dedicated starter battery was significantly lighter than the MD1

 

[Marceline]

Watching the price mount with all the "must haves", I can't help wondering if the most cost-effective solution, especially for sailing in an area where a reliable engine with a decent range is pretty important, wouldn't be something like this

Mitsubishi Marine engine 9hp K2AD​

€2.950,00

Mitsubishi Marine engine 9hp K2AD - AB Marine service

Yes, you need to arrange engine beds and fit a shaft, prop and fuel tank, but it'd give you a range only limited by the fuel you can carry - a 10 gal tank would be plenty, and "unlimited" electricity

Thanks but I should have mentioned we also didnt' want to go the diesel route either (we'd have likely gone for a Westerly when we were looking around at boats to buy)

One of the reasons we chose the Jaguar 24 was that it was reasonably 'light' and had a well as we were hoping to electrify it, and having an outboard seemed to lend itself for conversion to something like the ePropulsion Navy series that were available back then. But we also bought our ePropulsion Spirit back then to 'get to know them' (and we didn't want to buy a small petrol outboard etc) and for the most part it's been wonderful.

We held off swithcing to the Navy though for a number of reasons - partly because budget but also that as we're on a swing mooring (and some years off being able to be in marina) having no shore power for recharging was a difficult one to solve.

That's the main reason were really interested by the new Torqueedo Travel in that its output range is close to the Navy but its got the removable battery (about 1.5kw) compared to the Navy's 3kw new E60 that ePropulsion recently brought out they recommend.

So thats the gamechanger for us - that we could have portable power packs we could take home to recharge

So in terms of price (very roughly)

Navy 3 Outboard (or Pod) + e60 (3kw) = about £4500+

Torqueedo Travel XP S (with 1.5kw self enclosed battery included) = £3200
+ extra Travel battery (bringing capacity to 3kw) = £4800

the Navy has more 'hp' power, but the Torqueedo gives us more flexability, especially for our swing mooring

 

[Marceline]

That is an interesting prospect. However it is an "off" brand from Holland and not available here except as a private import.. None of the other Mitsubishi marinisers such as Vetus and Sole touch that series of engines which I guess are pretty unrefined compared with a Beta 10 or the more modern M Line Vetus. By the time you have imported it, built engine beds, installed a stern tube and P bracket plus all the installation gear you wont get much change out of £6k.

That was the market the Yanmar 1GM was aimed at, but many of the boats like the Jaguar 24 - light dinghy derived coastal cruisers simply did not justify the cost or complexity of an inboard installation so the outboard in a well was the least worst alternative.

If you really want to go electric on this type of boat then a pod with a 48v battery bank is the best solution on the market. Costs comparable with a decent inboard installation and a big improvement in both range and speed. In many ways it is similar to the choice between outboard petrol and inboard diesel on this size of boat. It is a step change with a price and complexity tack to reflect that.

can I ask (apart from the drag from having an open well) is there a reason you suggested the Pod drive over the Outboard ?

only reason is I thought the epropulsion Navy 3 and 6 Pods and their Outboards were comparable?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Watching the price mount with all the "must haves", I can't help wondering if the most cost-effective solution, especially for sailing in an area where a reliable engine with a decent range is pretty important, wouldn't be something like this

Mitsubishi Marine engine 9hp K2AD​

€2.950,00

Mitsubishi Marine engine 9hp K2AD - AB Marine service

Yes, you need to arrange engine beds and fit a shaft, prop and fuel tank, but it'd give you a range only limited by the fuel you can carry - a 10 gal tank would be plenty, and "unlimited" electricity

You've seen the weight of that? Plus the engine mounts, the starter battery, the tank, then the fuel you put in it. I daresay a prop and shaft weighs a bit, then there’s the drag. And all in, the cost isn’t significantly different to electric. If we were talking about a Contessa 26, it might be ideal. But not a lightweight like the Jaguar, and even less a Dragonfly. Conversely, I couldn’t see a viable electric install for a heavy, slow boat like a Contessa.

 

[Tranona]

can I ask (apart from the drag from having an open well) is there a reason you suggested the Pod drive over the Outboard ?

only reason is I thought the epropulsion Navy 3 and 6 Pods and their Outboards were comparable?

With a pod you can have a permanently installed battery bank with far greater range (as you can with a Navy). Probably little different in terms of drag from the open well. With a pod you can glass up the well and use the space for something else.

As you might have guessed I am not a lover of outboards as auxiliaries for yachts of this size despite having spent a good bit of my life in terms of experience working for an outboard manufacturer. However the reality is that they are the only sensible solution. An inboard is too heavy complicated and expensive for your style of boat. One of the projects I worked on (over 40 years ago!) was effectively a pod drive using our lower unit and what was then planned a 6 or 8hp 2 cylinder outboard power head inside, just like the saildrives that were being developed at the time. In fact Honda were already making something similar as well as OMC in the States. Turned out a bit of a blind alley primarily because of the use of a petrol engine just when good small diesels like the Yanmar 1GM were coming in.

The pod concept though has a lot going for it and the availability of viable electric motors makes a good package. However, almost nobody builds boats of the style and size of yours now so there is no volume OE market to support volume production that would bring prices down. The cost is therefore high for retrofits and although it would solve the propulsion problems the drawback of range is still there and difficult to manage unless you have access to shorepower which can give you a 30 mile or so range from an overnight charge. With a small boat on a swinging mooring you simply cannot harvest enough energy from the sun to give any meaningful range, particularly in the UK.

Despite your experience on balance modern 4 stroke outboards are a pretty good compromise and the cost (as you have discovered) of electric is so high in comparison and so restrictive in terms of range and convenience I don't think it will become popular in this sector of the market. Energy density of batteries is the big stumbling block and while this has been addressed to an extent in the automotive world the marine market is far too small to justify the sort of investment required to make any major breakthrough. There may be some spinoffs from automotive in the future but the gap between what is currently possible and what would make electric a viable substitute for ICE is huge.

 

[TSB240]

I can't see the op ever shipping enough precharged electrical capacity from his car to moored boat for a safe day sail on The Strait. We initially sailed a lightweight 24 foot lift keeler here with an outboard in the well. I strated with 6hp ob but soon had to upgrade to a 9.8 in order to have some grunt for those occasions when it really was needed.
I suspect the ops day sailing from Beamaris will be limited to within the confines of the stretch from Penmon to Menai Bridge. The tidal flows are much less strong at the northern end but much more complex as the tidal flow separation or meeting moves with time along the strait. Learning to go with the flow is a must!

There is most definitely a future for electrical auxiliary in a displacement day sailer that can be charged from shore power. I have a project in mind for converting an old 1960s day sailer to electric pod drive.

 

[Marceline]

With a pod you can have a permanently installed battery bank with far greater range (as you can with a Navy). Probably little different in terms of drag from the open well. With a pod you can glass up the well and use the space for something else.

As you might have guessed I am not a lover of outboards as auxiliaries for yachts of this size despite having spent a good bit of my life in terms of experience working for an outboard manufacturer. However the reality is that they are the only sensible solution. An inboard is too heavy complicated and expensive for your style of boat. One of the projects I worked on (over 40 years ago!) was effectively a pod drive using our lower unit and what was then planned a 6 or 8hp 2 cylinder outboard power head inside, just like the saildrives that were being developed at the time. In fact Honda were already making something similar as well as OMC in the States. Turned out a bit of a blind alley primarily because of the use of a petrol engine just when good small diesels like the Yanmar 1GM were coming in.

The pod concept though has a lot going for it and the availability of viable electric motors makes a good package. However, almost nobody builds boats of the style and size of yours now so there is no volume OE market to support volume production that would bring prices down. The cost is therefore high for retrofits and although it would solve the propulsion problems the drawback of range is still there and difficult to manage unless you have access to shorepower which can give you a 30 mile or so range from an overnight charge. With a small boat on a swinging mooring you simply cannot harvest enough energy from the sun to give any meaningful range, particularly in the UK.

Despite your experience on balance modern 4 stroke outboards are a pretty good compromise and the cost (as you have discovered) of electric is so high in comparison and so restrictive in terms of range and convenience I don't think it will become popular in this sector of the market. Energy density of batteries is the big stumbling block and while this has been addressed to an extent in the automotive world the marine market is far too small to justify the sort of investment required to make any major breakthrough. There may be some spinoffs from automotive in the future but the gap between what is currently possible and what would make electric a viable substitute for ICE is huge.

Hi Tranona and thanks so much for your reply

So it's not so much you think theres a difference in power for the ePropulsion Navy Pods and their comparative Outboards, its more you prefer the Pods fixed hard on the hull and to seal over the well? That and both the Navy Pods/Outboards can run with a large onboard 48v power bank ?

I'm just wondering why, if say with those power banks (starting at around 3kw+ and going up to 8kw for the e163) why wouldn't our approach which would also increase our power banks to 3kw+ not be comparable ? I think we could viably get 3kw easily, and up that to 5kw and more as we go on and (nearly) all portable so we can take them home off the mooring to recharge, (and have maybe a 1kw+ LifePO as our housebattery on there trickle charging off our small solar over the week) ?

And another advantage of the Torqueedo outboard (besides that we can take this home) is we've the option of when sailing taking the Outboard out of the well and storing the motor in cockpit locker or on our pushpit railings)+ popping the battery down below to trickle re-charge (off the 'Jackery' portable or the house battery). That would reduce the drag a bit more, plus we could fashion a way to temp infill the well with either something we'd drop in there or something on hinges. We could put a folding prop on a Pod (they do offer those), but this would give us a simple boost when sailing/reduce drag

So would 6kw with a Pod (and two of the e60s) or 5kw-6kw with the new Torqueedo (couple of the Torqueedo batteries + house/'jackery' backups) be that much of a difference ? Just as for us, with the Torqueedo, it does give us a viable option to recharge at home where we dont have that option on our mooring with the Pod/2 x e60s or a e163

or is it more you think there should be far more power capacity onboard (8kw+ ?) for the Navy/Pod approach

 

[Marceline]

I can't see the op ever shipping enough precharged electrical capacity from his car to moored boat for a safe day sail on The Strait. We initially sailed a lightweight 24 foot lift keeler here with an outboard in the well. I strated with 6hp ob but soon had to upgrade to a 9.8 in order to have some grunt for those occasions when it really was needed.
I suspect the ops day sailing from Beamaris will be limited to within the confines of the stretch from Penmon to Menai Bridge. The tidal flows are much less strong at the northern end but much more complex as the tidal flow separation or meeting moves with time along the strait. Learning to go with the flow is a must!

There is most definitely a future for electrical auxiliary in a displacement day sailer that can be charged from shore power. I have a project in mind for converting an old 1960s day sailer to electric pod drive.

Thanks for your reply and that is interesting you felt 10hp was more needed for a comparable boat.

The previous owners I think did go all around the Island with the current 6hp we've got but I don't know much more details, but know there's the various overfalls/tidal gates you really do not want to miss, and how how the wind can get funnelled so it can be too much/not enough. Our boat is about 1500kg/2000 with us and other things on it.

You're right though, were still learning so haven't yet been out past Puffin (in our boat, we have on various courses/crewing etc) so this was one of the questions I was asking initially, is '5hp' (or indeed the 6hp with the Tohatsu) enough for the challenges of the Island (Caernarfon Bar, Swellies, various overfalls) and you found 10hp was what you really needed. That's food for thought, so many thanks for your comment

 

[Marceline]

this is where we currently have our house lead-acid battery in the cockpit locker which is trickle charged from our 20w solar, so one of the upgrades we're thinking of doing before we launch it to swap this for a similar size Lithium LifePO to give us some more capacity (regardless as to if we go electric or not this season)

As mentioned in a post further up the thread, the only vital thing we're really running off this is our depth sounding instrument - we have a portable VHS. no chart plotter (use our phones and Savvy Navy), we have various GPS (phones again, an old garmin, and the Torqueedo has one built in if we get it), no wind instruments, no autopilot, no fridge, and lights we tend to use our own LEDs), and we don't really nightsail (as yet) - so we think this could be a simple way we can trickle charge a LifePO and have about 1kw+ onboard for daysailing at the weekend as a back up should we get a Torqueedo. We could up our solar panels/charger/add an inverter at a later date as well

There's also some space to add more LifePOs in the locker as well if this seems useful

 

[Tranona]

Hi Tranona and thanks so much for your reply

So it's not so much you think theres a difference in power for the ePropulsion Navy Pods and their comparative Outboards, its more you prefer the Pods fixed hard on the hull and to seal over the well? That and both the Navy Pods/Outboards can run with a large onboard 48v power bank ?

I'm just wondering why, if say with those power banks (starting at around 3kw+ and going up to 8kw for the e163) why wouldn't our approach which would also increase our power banks to 3kw+ not be comparable ? I think we could viably get 3kw easily, and up that to 5kw and more as we go on and (nearly) all portable so we can take them home off the mooring to recharge, (and have maybe a 1kw+ LifePO as our housebattery on there trickle charging off our small solar over the week) ?

And another advantage of the Torqueedo outboard (besides that we can take this home) is we've the option of when sailing taking the Outboard out of the well and storing the motor in cockpit locker or on our pushpit railings)+ popping the battery down below to trickle re-charge (off the 'Jackery' portable or the house battery). That would reduce the drag a bit more, plus we could fashion a way to temp infill the well with either something we'd drop in there or something on hinges. We could put a folding prop on a Pod (they do offer those), but this would give us a simple boost when sailing/reduce drag

So would 6kw with a Pod (and two of the e60s) or 5kw-6kw with the new Torqueedo (couple of the Torqueedo batteries + house/'jackery' backups) be that much of a difference ? Just as for us, with the Torqueedo, it does give us a viable option to recharge at home where we dont have that option on our mooring with the Pod/2 x e60s or a e163

or is it more you think there should be far more power capacity onboard (8kw+ ?) for the Navy/Pod approach

Convenience (if you have access to shorepower) and overall capability of the boat when you want to be more adventurous. Suspect you will soon get bored with the need to take power packs home to charge. A permanent installation is getting more towards the benefits you get from an inboard installation on a more cruising orientated boat. Once you have experienced the freedom that a good inboard installation gives, you will appreciate the lack of appeal of the sort of DIY solution you are proposing. While you are looking at an alternative to an already compromise solution (electric outboard replacing petrol) I would rather look the other way and devise a solution that gets as close to an inboard diesel installation without the diesel. The pod and 48V bank achieves much of this and really it is only range that is compromised, but I think it is possible with your sort of boat and sailing pattern to live comfortably within the range. Charging is the only barrier.

 

[Marceline]

thanks again for your reply Tranona but I'm not sure if my previous posts were clear but tbh we are pretty much already doing (and have done for the past couple of seasons) what it is I'm suggesting

Last couple of seasons we took our ePropulsion with its standalone battery with us and then stowed it and about 20litres/kilos of fresh water which we now don't have to (we've sorted out our water tank). I'd not mentioned this before but now I think about it we also take on/off our porta loo as well - all in our dinghy and its a bit of a chore but one we're used to

We're likely years away round here from getting into a marina so the benefits of those just arent a possible (and tbh we do like our swing mooring where we are very much) so charging a large onboard-only battery bank is particularly difficult and why we havn't gone down the Navy route.

That's why I was so excited about the new Torqueedo as this seems just '1hp' less than the Navy 3 Pod/Outboard, and all we'd really be taking onboard with us is *one extra spare Travel battery*, and a 'jackery' or two (so about 12 kilos if just one, another 12 if two) - so about 4-5kw and if we up our trickle-charge house battery theres a 1kw+ bit extra already onboard waiting for us for the next week

We'd love the idea of a Navy + high capacity onboard (for many reasons), but there's not much chance of getting into a local marina anytime soon and the above I've been suggesting I don't think is that much different in terms of power/capacity - and in terms of 'convenience', sure it's a bit of a chore at the beginng/end of the day, but its not that much different from what we're already been doing the past couple of seasons. We'd have the extra power, extra capacity, can recharge at home and also have peace of mind all our outboard gear is safely home and not on the water.

tbh I think what I should have done is get rid of the portapotti and put back in a working sea loo now I think of it - but we could always do that for next season (but then again, we'd need access to a marina for pump out :/ )

 

[steve yates]

A slightly off beat take on this. The benefits of an electric ob are so huge, and the drawbacks so obvious, that perhaps folk could think about changing their entire attitude toward sailing to get the benefits?
Go back to the "an engine is for manouvering in harbour only" mentality and actually make a concious decision to sail everywhere, regardless.
That way you negate the drawbacks of the elctric ob.
And the better you get at using sails for everything all the time, the less and less you need to worry about range or thrust.
Then its all there available when you HAVE to get back in time or the kids are simply sick of the pissing rain and freezing wind and want back to their x boxes.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A slightly off beat take on this. The benefits of an electric ob are so huge, and the drawbacks so obvious, that perhaps folk could think about changing their entire attitude toward sailing to get the benefits?
Go back to the "an engine is for manouvering in harbour only" mentality and actually make a concious decision to sail everywhere, regardless.
That way you negate the drawbacks of the elctric ob.
And the better you get at using sails for everything all the time, the less and less you need to worry about range or thrust.
Then its all there available when you HAVE to get back in time or the kids are simply sick of the pissing rain and freezing wind and want back to their x boxes.

This s exactly why it could work for us. Our sails, each one cost more than an electric drive unit, the main more than the whole setup. They work, we can sail when everyone else has given up, and make ground against the western solent tides. And also, kids are adults, and no more Monday mornings. There are a number of other sailboat designs that can do similar, maybe more of them will become popular as this tech becomes mainstream. Fast light boats are fun too, and are entirely suitable for 95% of the sailors around our part of the world. Far too many people buy long distance cruisers and never get beyond Portland Bill. Ours is capable of a lot more than that, as are Pogos and their ilk. Buying a Malo and not leaving Christchurch Bay, just get over yourselves. We may all have to change our sailing habits, and boats eventually. You have a while to get used to the idea however.

 

[Tranona]

thanks again for your reply Tranona but I'm not sure if my previous posts were clear but tbh we are pretty much already doing (and have done for the past couple of seasons) what it is I'm suggesting

Last couple of seasons we took our ePropulsion with its standalone battery with us and then stowed it and about 20litres/kilos of fresh water which we now don't have to (we've sorted out our water tank). I'd not mentioned this before but now I think about it we also take on/off our porta loo as well - all in our dinghy and its a bit of a chore but one we're used to

We're likely years away round here from getting into a marina so the benefits of those just arent a possible (and tbh we do like our swing mooring where we are very much) so charging a large onboard-only battery bank is particularly difficult and why we havn't gone down the Navy route.

That's why I was so excited about the new Torqueedo as this seems just '1hp' less than the Navy 3 Pod/Outboard, and all we'd really be taking onboard with us is *one extra spare Travel battery*, and a 'jackery' or two (so about 12 kilos if just one, another 12 if two) - so about 4-5kw and if we up our trickle-charge house battery theres a 1kw+ bit extra already onboard waiting for us for the next week

We'd love the idea of a Navy + high capacity onboard (for many reasons), but there's not much chance of getting into a local marina anytime soon and the above I've been suggesting I don't think is that much different in terms of power/capacity - and in terms of 'convenience', sure it's a bit of a chore at the beginng/end of the day, but its not that much different from what we're already been doing the past couple of seasons. We'd have the extra power, extra capacity, can recharge at home and also have peace of mind all our outboard gear is safely home and not on the water.

tbh I think what I should have done is get rid of the portapotti and put back in a working sea loo now I think of it - but we could always do that for next season (but then again, we'd need access to a marina for pump out :/ )

If you look back at my previous posts you will see that if I were in your shoes I would stick to a petrol outboard. I simply don't see the value in spending huge amounts of money for a replacement that is inferior to your current arrangement for auxiliary power. That does not mean I don't see the attractions of electric but it is still not a substitute for petrol for your type of boat and sailing pattern. It is an alternative and even with your extra packs and the inconvenience of charging you will still be more constrained in what you can do.

Post 78 makes a valid point. IF you are prepared to work within the constraints and see the motor as just a means of getting in and out of harbour or on and off moorings you can manage with electric. This is how it was in times before reliable engines BUT that style of sailing is incompatible with most people's lifestyles. Reliable auxiliaries were a major factor in making coastal cruising a viable activity for the mass market