Torqueedo new Travel outboards for daysailing

[Marceline]

Billyfish's recent thread prompted me to look again at the Torqueedo site and they've a new range there that looks to nearly fit what I'm looking for

Travel XP - Elektrischer Außenborder mit Direktantrieb - Torqeedo


We've got an ePropulsion spirit 1kw (approx to 3hp they say) that we love for our tender and gets us to our swing mooring. Our boat is a Jaguar 24 with a well for an outboard that's 6hp

Tbh - we really don't enjoy the petrol outboard - we have it serviced each year but sometimes it just didn't start etc and the service engineers said ours prob will last for this season but needing a new one afterwards

So I've been long looking at ePropulsion's Navy Series and been told the Navy 3 (at around 6hp) would be sufficient for our boat size and the tidal waters we are based in (on Menai Strait, so there's navigating The Swellies and Caernarfon Bar which both need a reliable engine)

But what I wasn't so keen on was having the Navy needing seperate heavy battery/connecting cables etc, particularly as we're on a swing mooring and not being able to charge it unless going alongside at a marina/boatyard etc (and our solar is minimal)

So what really appeals about Torqueedo's new XP S 5 is that there is the self contained and removable battery which means we can take the battery home with us to recharge and also have one or two more in reserve. And we could also use this as our tender's outboard so we could just lift this out at the end of the day and take our outboard back with us rather than it sitting in the well all season (AND also mean we could sell on our ePropulsion Spirit to help buy another battery pack)

So - my main question is, given our boat is about 1500kg (and more with us on it) - and given we need to get through The Swellies (only attempting at faveourable times) , do you think the 5hp equivilant would enough ? Or should I wait/hope for something similar to come on the market but that is about 6hp+ ?


We know we'd rather not buy another petrol engine (and removing the risk/smell of petrol onboard would be a huge plus, and even more so no more noise) - but if this '5hp' might not be enough we don't want to waste funds etc on it

I should mention also - we're only using this for dailsailing/weekends, and around Anglesey/North Wales, and not planning to go out in anything more than F3-F4 (and heading back in if things look to get stronger)

It does look like it has some nice features like an app and ability to adjust the tiller, and I do love as well that there's not connecting cables now (which were often a bit fiddly on our ePropulsion spirit)

 

[MoodySabre]

I went with a friend trying out her torqueedo Travel in the well on an Achilles 23. It pushed it along in flat water but you wouldn’t want to rely on it to go far against any kind of tide.
I don’t know how much this new model is but it is probably getting on for the cost of a new petrol outboard. Id go for the latter.

 

[Marceline]

Thanks MoodySabre - good to know your friends could manage on flat waterfor a 23'. Just wondering you don't know which size/power of the Travel model it was ?

Tbh we do have very strong tides, but I tend to just go up/down the Strait with the tides rather than fight against it for long, but when mooring etc going into the tide I'd need enough power

 

[MoodySabre]

I think it was a Travel 1003 standard shaft. I have one for the inflatable but these days it’s usually just grandkids messing about and having fun. My son has a Drascombe with a new 8hp petrol and it starts easily and goes superbly.

 

[Boathook]

Why not experiment with your epropulsion in place of the petrol outboard ?

As has been mentioned in other threads here, it is difficult to compare power of electric and petrol outboards. I know that my epropulsion could move my 4.5 ton boat going on how moves around with dinghy alongside.

It will at least give you a starting point when considering electric power for your boat.

 

[Marceline]

Thanks both - really helpful (and tbh putting the dinghy alongside to see if I can move the boat ok with the ePropulsion is a great idea)

 

[Tranona]

Couple of observations. First it is 3 times the price of a new 6hp outboard. Second a spare battery (£1500) is more than a new outboard. Third you will need a long shaft for the yacht and a short shaft for the dinghy so not practical to have one motor to do both - and the yacht motor will be far too powerful for the dinghy.

Suitability for your use. You will get around 4.5 knots at half throttle in flat water and a range of about 6-7 miles. Full throttle adds about 1 knot to speed and halves the range. Suggest you try working within these limitations using your current engine on a typical weekend sailing. In other words limit to 4.5 knots against wind and tide and not exceed 1 1/2 hours motoring over the weekend. Remember 1 1/2 hours range has a capital cost of over £1500 compared with £5 or so worth of petrol!

While the quiet running and cleanliness are highly desirable attributes they come with severe limitations and high cost and only you can determine whether it will work for you in your pattern of use.

 

[Marceline]

thanks Tranona - some good suggestions there and think we'll try as you suggested with our petrol outboard. We've never had to full throttle it as a 6hp so am hoping a '5hp' could work

We can't buy the Torqueedo as yet anyway so some time to figure out/compare

 

[ridgy]

First of all, having been moored around Anglesey and the straits on and off for 20 years, an unreliable engine of any type would curtail my enjoyment of the area very quickly.
I wouldn't be worried about the Swellies particularly, at a "favourable time" the tide will either be slack or slightly with you and I've rowed through it a few times.

The problem for me is that the wind strength in the straits can be one or two higher than advertised, particularly between Menai and Puffin. Motoring against that even with the tide is no fun. You will be very limited with the proposed engine.

Get yourself a new 6hp Tohatsu sail pro and be done with it. 20 years service and very quiet, compared to the 2 stroke I'm guessing you have.

 

[Bouba]

Billyfish's recent thread prompted me to look again at the Torqueedo site and they've a new range there that looks to nearly fit what I'm looking for

Travel XP - Elektrischer Außenborder mit Direktantrieb - Torqeedo


We've got an ePropulsion spirit 1kw (approx to 3hp they say) that we love for our tender and gets us to our swing mooring. Our boat is a Jaguar 24 with a well for an outboard that's 6hp

Tbh - we really don't enjoy the petrol outboard - we have it serviced each year but sometimes it just didn't start etc and the service engineers said ours prob will last for this season but needing a new one afterwards

So I've been long looking at ePropulsion's Navy Series and been told the Navy 3 (at around 6hp) would be sufficient for our boat size and the tidal waters we are based in (on Menai Strait, so there's navigating The Swellies and Caernarfon Bar which both need a reliable engine)

But what I wasn't so keen on was having the Navy needing seperate heavy battery/connecting cables etc, particularly as we're on a swing mooring and not being able to charge it unless going alongside at a marina/boatyard etc (and our solar is minimal)

So what really appeals about Torqueedo's new XP S 5 is that there is the self contained and removable battery which means we can take the battery home with us to recharge and also have one or two more in reserve. And we could also use this as our tender's outboard so we could just lift this out at the end of the day and take our outboard back with us rather than it sitting in the well all season (AND also mean we could sell on our ePropulsion Spirit to help buy another battery pack)

So - my main question is, given our boat is about 1500kg (and more with us on it) - and given we need to get through The Swellies (only attempting at faveourable times) , do you think the 5hp equivilant would enough ? Or should I wait/hope for something similar to come on the market but that is about 6hp+ ?


We know we'd rather not buy another petrol engine (and removing the risk/smell of petrol onboard would be a huge plus, and even more so no more noise) - but if this '5hp' might not be enough we don't want to waste funds etc on it

I should mention also - we're only using this for dailsailing/weekends, and around Anglesey/North Wales, and not planning to go out in anything more than F3-F4 (and heading back in if things look to get stronger)

It does look like it has some nice features like an app and ability to adjust the tiller, and I do love as well that there's not connecting cables now (which were often a bit fiddly on our ePropulsion spirit)

Looks really nice.....any idea of the price ?.... and I wonder if the battery floats ?

 

[Tranona]

Looks really nice.....any idea of the price ?.... and I wonder if the battery floats ?

Read the link in the original post

 

[Marceline]

Looks really nice.....any idea of the price ?.... and I wonder if the battery floats ?

Hi - from their site it looks like its going to be about £3200 (thought I need to go through as UK dealer as Torqueedo aren't selling direct to UK)

Sadly I don't think their battery packs float (haven't seen it mentioned in any research so far)

 

[Marceline]

First of all, having been moored around Anglesey and the straits on and off for 20 years, an unreliable engine of any type would curtail my enjoyment of the area very quickly.
I wouldn't be worried about the Swellies particularly, at a "favourable time" the tide will either be slack or slightly with you and I've rowed through it a few times.

The problem for me is that the wind strength in the straits can be one or two higher than advertised, particularly between Menai and Puffin. Motoring against that even with the tide is no fun. You will be very limited with the proposed engine.

Get yourself a new 6hp Tohatsu sail pro and be done with it. 20 years service and very quiet, compared to the 2 stroke I'm guessing you have.

thanks Ridgy and yes we were quite nervous those couple of times we couldn't get our petrol outboard to start

sadly our petrol outboard is a Tohatsu 6hp saildrive - its been serviced each of the couple of years we've had it but this year needed rebuilding and the engineers said it'd prob only last this season. I guess it's as we're new to sailing but having a big red petrol tank in our cockpit along with the outboard putting out fumes/noise etc we just so much prefer our ePropulsion (though we're only using that for the tender) so rather than getting another petrol that we really don't like, and the service costs every year, we'd rather hope we can find an electric alternative which - though admittedly much more than the £1200 for a new Tohatsu) - we hope will be more reliable/easier to start/much easier to maintain and service etc

Could I ask - for the scenarios you're mentioning eg: going against wind from Puffin to Menai even with the tide, would a 5hp be nearly as similar as a 6hp ? Just as the Torqueedo is supposed to be similar to a '5hp'

Also is tacking into the wind motorsailing a possible to help with just jib or mainsail up (or is this when the wind is stronger as you mentioned with it funnelled up the Strait) ?

ps -thats amazing you've rowed through The Swellies !!

 

[nestawayboats]

I should make clear, I haven't had the chance to try a new Travel XP on the water yet. But I did spend quite a lot of time familiarising myself with how it works on various trade stands over the last few months. Apparently UK stock is now on its way, should be available mid May.

Anyway this new motor - the Torqeedo Travel XP - from Torqeedo is rated at 1.6kW power output (45% more than the 1103), with a 1425Wh battery capacity (55% more than the 1103). Probably the most welcome news is they've got rid of all connection cables, the battery aligns itself as you mount it and connects a bit like a battery drill. There are also improvements to the tilting mechanism, including shallow water drive settings, and the tiller can now be tilted to vertical without falling off (only relevant to a few users, but those few will be happy!). There's also a colour display and better interactivity with smart phones etc.

Your main question: is 1.6kW powerful enough to drive a 24ft boat, that weighs perhaps 2 tonnes when fully loaded, into adverse conditions? The answer is really "depends how adverse, and how fast you want to go". I would say 1.6kW is sufficient for almost any conditions you're likely to choose to go out in, in a Jaguar 24, and quite a bit above those conditions. But will it push her directly to windward against a F8 on the nose with breaking 6ft swells... no. I'm not sure what motor would. I'd guess at a top speed (with an XP) of somewhere around 5 knots in calm conditions, so will it push her against an adverse tide of more than 5 knots... no.

I have a 6kW pod motor on a (4 tonne) Sadler 29 and if it's flat calm we tend to motor at around 4 knots using roughly 1.5kW power. I don't know the Jaguar 24 particularly well but it looks quite slippery and at 2 tonnes it will definitely need less power to do 4 knots, or go faster on 1.5kW (hence my guess of 5 knots flat out). If there's any wind at all we are electric motorsailing the Sadler, not "pure motoring", and it's remarkable how few Watts are needed to point a little higher and increase boatspeed half a knot. If it's very lumpy at the entrance to Portsmouth harbour (which it often is nowadays, thanks presumably to the dredging for the aircraft carriers) we might use as much as 3kW, briefly, but I can't remember a time we've wanted (needed) more than that. If I was fitting it again I'd consider a 3kW pod instead, but there's not a lot of difference in price so probably not!

So for a very high percentage of the time, and assuming that you apply basic seamanship in terms of working out the tides and listening to weather forecasts, a 1.6kW electric outboard would be sufficient, and definitely far nicer than anything that involved petrol. Quiet, smooth, fume-free, instant torque from zero revs, no starter cord to pull, no carb to gum up, etc. The downside is that you can't pour more petrol in the tank, so you will tend to go slower (to be more economical) but electric motoring is really rather pleasant so you don't usually mind if voyages under motor take a little longer. I think we are meant to enjoy our time at sea?

Whether the price is justifiable is a personal thing, but doubters never seem to attribute any value to the improved experience, they simply make a direct comparison of power output with a petrol outboard. Nor do the doubters allow for the savings over time (fuel to some extent, but mostly servicing/maintenance) compared to the upfront costs.

As retailers we wish nobody had ever started the "xxhp equivalent" thing, because it's misleading and often seems to gets re-written (or interpreted) as "equal to xxhp". Then we are stuck with it because if we say lower figures it sounds like our identical outboards are less powerful than everyone elses... Technically 1kW is about 1.34hp but with very different delivery characteristics. For displacement speeds (such as driving a yacht) we'd say it's more like a factor of 2, possibly even a bit more than that. So calling a 1kW outboard "equivalent" to 3hp is not ridiculous in terms of what it achieves, for a dinghy, dayboat, or small yacht, at displacement speeds. At planing speeds we'd actually say the conversion factor's a bit high, 6kW doesn't really seem to do much if anything more than a 6hp petrol (for higher speed craft). But there are so many variables, such as propeller and hull design, or how much weed's on the bottom, to take into account.

And on small outboard-powered yachts there is another factor in specifying petrol power outboards, which needs to be considered when comparing them with electric outboards. Small petrol outboards especially single cylinder ones are pretty horrible at high revs. So if you "need" 3-4hp you might buy/specify a 6 so that you can get 3-4hp at a bit above half throttle (where the revs, ie noise and vibration, are bearable). The smallest two cylinder petrol outboard anybody makes now is 8hp, so you might specify that - even if way above what's needed - simply to get something that's a bit smoother. As you say you've never used your 6 flat out... so you've never actually used 6hp. If it's a bit knackered it probably doesn't make 6hp flat out either. But the point is you can run an electric motor flat out and it will be quieter/smoother than a petrol motor at any revs (other than zero!). You can use all of an electric motor's output quite happily, but probably won't use all of a petrol motor's output (in a well in the back of the cockpit small yacht scenario) because it's probably over-specced and if you do use all of it you'll go deaf and every single bolt on your boat will come undone.

As you already have the ePropulsion Spirit, and as somebody else suggested, why not try that on your Jaguar 24 for the weekend? It will at least give you an idea if it's viable. If you find 1kW does most of what you want then 1.6kW will do what you want with a healthy/sensible reserve.

Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd
NB in the interests of clarity I should say we do have a commercial interest, in that we sell Torqeedo, ePropulsion, TEMO and ThrustMe electric outboards, amongst other things. But that does also mean we've used them, and spoken to many customers who've bought/used them too.

 

[Bouba]

I should make clear, I haven't had the chance to try a new Travel XP on the water yet. But I did spend quite a lot of time familiarising myself with how it works on various trade stands over the last few months. Apparently UK stock is now on its way, should be available mid May.

Anyway this new motor - the Torqeedo Travel XP - from Torqeedo is rated at 1.6kW power output (45% more than the 1103), with a 1425Wh battery capacity (55% more than the 1103). Probably the most welcome news is they've got rid of all connection cables, the battery aligns itself as you mount it and connects a bit like a battery drill. There are also improvements to the tilting mechanism, including shallow water drive settings, and the tiller can now be tilted to vertical without falling off (only relevant to a few users, but those few will be happy!). There's also a colour display and better interactivity with smart phones etc.

Your main question: is 1.6kW powerful enough to drive a 24ft boat, that weighs perhaps 2 tonnes when fully loaded, into adverse conditions? The answer is really "depends how adverse, and how fast you want to go". I would say 1.6kW is sufficient for almost any conditions you're likely to choose to go out in, in a Jaguar 24, and quite a bit above those conditions. But will it push her directly to windward against a F8 on the nose with breaking 6ft swells... no. I'm not sure what motor would. I'd guess at a top speed (with an XP) of somewhere around 5 knots in calm conditions, so will it push her against an adverse tide of more than 5 knots... no.

I have a 6kW pod motor on a (4 tonne) Sadler 29 and if it's flat calm we tend to motor at around 4 knots using roughly 1.5kW power. I don't know the Jaguar 24 particularly well but it looks quite slippery and at 2 tonnes it will definitely need less power to do 4 knots, or go faster on 1.5kW (hence my guess of 5 knots flat out). If there's any wind at all we are electric motorsailing the Sadler, not "pure motoring", and it's remarkable how few Watts are needed to point a little higher and increase boatspeed half a knot. If it's very lumpy at the entrance to Portsmouth harbour (which it often is nowadays, thanks presumably to the dredging for the aircraft carriers) we might use as much as 3kW, briefly, but I can't remember a time we've wanted (needed) more than that. If I was fitting it again I'd consider a 3kW pod instead, but there's not a lot of difference in price so probably not!

So for a very high percentage of the time, and assuming that you apply basic seamanship in terms of working out the tides and listening to weather forecasts, a 1.6kW electric outboard would be sufficient, and definitely far nicer than anything that involved petrol. Quiet, smooth, fume-free, instant torque from zero revs, no starter cord to pull, no carb to gum up, etc. The downside is that you can't pour more petrol in the tank, so you will tend to go slower (to be more economical) but electric motoring is really rather pleasant so you don't usually mind if voyages under motor take a little longer. I think we are meant to enjoy our time at sea?

Whether the price is justifiable is a personal thing, but doubters never seem to attribute any value to the improved experience, they simply make a direct comparison of power output with a petrol outboard. Nor do the doubters allow for the savings over time (fuel to some extent, but mostly servicing/maintenance) compared to the upfront costs.

As retailers we wish nobody had ever started the "xxhp equivalent" thing, because it's misleading and often seems to gets re-written (or interpreted) as "equal to xxhp". Then we are stuck with it because if we say lower figures it sounds like our identical outboards are less powerful than everyone elses... Technically 1kW is about 1.34hp but with very different delivery characteristics. For displacement speeds (such as driving a yacht) we'd say it's more like a factor of 2, possibly even a bit more than that. So calling a 1kW outboard "equivalent" to 3hp is not ridiculous in terms of what it achieves, for a dinghy, dayboat, or small yacht, at displacement speeds. At planing speeds we'd actually say the conversion factor's a bit high, 6kW doesn't really seem to do much if anything more than a 6hp petrol (for higher speed craft). But there are so many variables, such as propeller and hull design, or how much weed's on the bottom, to take into account.

And on small outboard-powered yachts there is another factor in specifying petrol power outboards, which needs to be considered when comparing them with electric outboards. Small petrol outboards especially single cylinder ones are pretty horrible at high revs. So if you "need" 3-4hp you might buy/specify a 6 so that you can get 3-4hp at a bit above half throttle (where the revs, ie noise and vibration, are bearable). The smallest two cylinder petrol outboard anybody makes now is 8hp, so you might specify that - even if way above what's needed - simply to get something that's a bit smoother. As you say you've never used your 6 flat out... so you've never actually used 6hp. If it's a bit knackered it probably doesn't make 6hp flat out either. But the point is you can run an electric motor flat out and it will be quieter/smoother than a petrol motor at any revs (other than zero!). You can use all of an electric motor's output quite happily, but probably won't use all of a petrol motor's output (in a well in the back of the cockpit small yacht scenario) because it's probably over-specced and if you do use all of it you'll go deaf and every single bolt on your boat will come undone.

As you already have the ePropulsion Spirit, and as somebody else suggested, why not try that on your Jaguar 24 for the weekend? It will at least give you an idea if it's viable. If you find 1kW does most of what you want then 1.6kW will do what you want with a healthy/sensible reserve.

Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd
NB in the interests of clarity I should say we do have a commercial interest, in that we sell Torqeedo, ePropulsion, TEMO and ThrustMe electric outboards, amongst other things. But that does also mean we've used them, and spoken to many customers who've bought/used them too.

Can I just add, as a Torqueedo owner myself, Ian is the absolute authority on this subject and has always given extremely useful impartial advice

 

[Marceline]

ah wow - thank you HUGELY and ever so much

 

[Chiara’s slave]

This is a subject we are keenly researching. A 2 ton fairly racy trimaran, could up our solar output to 400w. Currently running a Honda 15 outboard, still in good nick so not in a rush. We have no shore power. But then, we very rarely motor any distance. Normally it’s from the mooring, through the bridge and the marina, dodge the ferry and put the sails up. Bucklers Hard is probably the toughest challenge, you really don’t want to sail a DF 920 though moorings, with other traffic. The locals would die of heart failure, my wife would be very silent and white as a sheet. But, the boat is easily driven, and the weight not all being hung from the transom would be great. Integration with new LiPO4 house batteries is part of the plan. Would the 6kw ones push us along ok?.

 

[Marceline]

I wonder if the ePropulsion Navy series would suit for your (very fabulous) Trimaran ? They can work with other company's batteries so they don't have to be propriety and so could possibly intergrate with your house batteries. They do the saildrive Pods as well as outboards and their Navy 6 model is about '10hp' and the pods also have folding props as well as an option

Pod Drive Series Electric Boat Motor

Search for "folding"

A nice possible option as well if you went with either the Epropulsion outboards or the non folding-prop pods for your Trimaran especially is that the Regen I guess could work well for you should you want to keep the outboard in the water if you're above 6 knots, and up to 10 knots can make some energy back for your batteries

Based on some of the comments above (where even a 1kw motor can move a 4 ton boat in flat/calm waters) you might even be able to just use a Spirit (and use it as a tender outboard as well if needed), but tbh I think try contacting various dealers like Nestaway and others and chat about those and other makes like Torqueedo and see if those suit (those new XP S Travels with the '5hp' that could also work as a tender outboard and a battery you could take home and fully charge for us really do sound a nice allrounder option on our swing mooring)

I do know handling our ePropulsion Spirit outboard is so much easier/lighter than our petrol outboard, so if you're wanting to reduce drag/racing taking that out the water and maybe storing below/locker could also be a nice to have

 

[Stemar]

All I can add is that on a few occasions when the diesel in our Snapdragon 24 didn't want to play, our 3.5HP short shaft OB pushed her along quite nicely. She was a tubby little thing, and I reckon a Jaguar 24 would be more easily driven. Yes, I'd want more for a main engine, and definitely a long shaft, but I would expect the equivalent of 6HP to give you a bit in reserve for when things get bumpy.

As for charging, can you increase your solar power? It'll only ever be a trickle charge, but over a week, assuming you sail at the weekend, it adds up.

 

[Mark-1]

In answer to one minor point above I use the same long shafts on dinghies and my 1 ton 21ft bilge keeler and they work fine. If your transom was flimsy the extra leverage might not be welcome, but you should be fixing that anyway.

I have zero experience of E outboards but I can't believe outright power would be a problem at all, I never use my 5hp outboard flat out on the cruiser as it is. Range certainly would be a problem, unless you're a gazzilionare and can carry a few spare batteries low down in the boat, in which case game on.