Beginning to think we need a bigger boat

[Paulfireblade]

i read with interest the threads regarding loss of Keels having had mine removed recently for maintenance (I said I was a bit OCD.) in defence I had spotted some tea staining that appeared earlier this year, even though yard Manager said he had seen far worse for peace of mind it seemed worthwhile especially as my furler needed replacing so the standing rigging needed work anyway so removal of keel and replacement of all rigging wasn’t such a big jump.

What was interesting once the keel was dropped was that the cast iron fin keel had been bonded to shiny gel coat and the yard Manager had his suspicions that the releasing agent from the mold had still been present.

That might explain why the keel separated so easily once keel bolt’s removed. So with the grp properly prepared before bonding I should now have a more secure joint than when it left the factory.

As an East coast sailor I just need to make sure I don’t touch the bottom.

 

[dgadee]

... it seemed worthwhile especially as my furler needed replacing so the standing rigging needed work anyway so removal of keel and replacement of all rigging wasn’t such a big jump.

Seems a big jump to me!

 

[Tranona]

39 does look impresive, 38 seems to be more widely available in the UK though. The 39s I have seen are above our budget but I guess it would be justifiable to increase the budget considering what the boat offers.

True, that is an option, but it goes against the principle of keeping it simple, so would prefer to avoid it.

So overall Bavaria seems to be the winner and I definitelly need to try to sail one next season along with a few others mentioned earlier before committing to anything. Thank you all for the contributions so far. And to Patrick Laine

Worth looking on here bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php not so active now, but majority of members own boats from the J&J era that you will be looking at. Many are liveaboards or long term cruisers and there is a wealth of information about the common issues that they encounter. Particularly good is an extensive survey of what gives problems. Most noticeable is how few there are and probably most of them are with non Bavaria components many of which are used on other production boats - Volvo Selden, Lewmar, Spinlock Lofrans etc.

Maybe also worth contacting magicalarmchair (Mark) on this forum who has a 2004 Bav 40 which he sails on the east coast with his wife and 4 children. He has also had several articles in PBO of work he has done on his boat.

 

[ashtead]

My experience of bigger Bavs is limited but while my fellow crew was down below reading emails on his blackberry(remember them ) we /i motor sailed quite happily across the straits of bonifacio in what was 6/7 approx in a older 42ish charter version -very basic kit but we felt quite happy and he stayed below due to work calls etc for whole crossing . The bits of kit all held up and we anchored on arrival which was actually most stressful part of trip. If you can live with the wooden interior I think a 39 bav from early 2005 approx would be worthwhile viewing . There seems to be plenty of space for growing family and that extra length compared to a 36 is worth it imho -I’m sure you know but Bav numbers are fictional so a 34 is for example 35ft 8ins approx and I guess a 39 might likewise be a tad longer. Good luck with search

 

[baart]

What are your thoughts on putting the boat into one of those charter management schemes that several companies in the Solent area seem to offer? If that could contribute to the cost of ownership I guess I could increase the budget and get something newer. For the first few years from purchase we wouldn't use the boat that much so instead of having it sitting there when we are not sailing it could generate some money. The schemes I have seen seem to offer a 60/40 split. If that money pays for berthing and servicing I would be happy. Just not sure if it would ? Is it worth it ?

 

[Paulfireblade]

Seems a big jump to me!

I should have explained better, in the summer when furler started to play up I got local riggers to quote to replace and they came back with an eye watering quote. Boat was booked in for my local boat yard to remove keel in September so the mast had to be removed, they did most of the work but got local riggers to supply new rigging furler and tune the rigging once yard had finished. Yard managed to get a decent discount for me so it cost me almost the same as the Summer quote to just replace furler.

The cost of the keel was in addition but planned anyway.

 

[Tranona]

What are your thoughts on putting the boat into one of those charter management schemes that several companies in the Solent area seem to offer? If that could contribute to the cost of ownership I guess I could increase the budget and get something newer. For the first few years from purchase we wouldn't use the boat that much so instead of having it sitting there when we are not sailing it could generate some money. The schemes I have seen seem to offer a 60/40 split. If that money pays for berthing and servicing I would be happy. Just not sure if it would ? Is it worth it ?

I looked at that very closely when we bought our first Bav, but it was not very attractive, partly because it was Solent based which adds to costs and partly because the boats have a hard life going out in all weathers often with "party boy" charterers plus we already had our UK boat and were seduced by having one in the med. it was much lower cost, partly because of the lower operating costs (subsidised marina berths) and partly because the boats are used intensively in the light weather summer months leading generally to boats being in better condition after the 6 year contract.

Not looked at the current UK deals, but suspect they will be offering bigger boats than when I looked and the boat cost is likely to be in the £250-300k region for a 38-40' boat.

 

[Paulfireblade]

I chartered from a company in the Solent that provided owners boats on hire. When we went through the inventory certain items were missing. They explained that when the boat was impounded by the French authorities when the people who had chartered it were caught smuggling drugs various items on the boat disappeared.

They said the owner was lucky to get the boat returned. Not like renting a house, potentially a boat could end up anywhere, unlikely but not sure I could take the risk.

 

[ashtead]

Maybe the Med might be a more attractive option for a charter management scheme but clearly I suspect any such schemes might have a limitation on usage ?

 

[Tranona]

Maybe the Med might be a more attractive option for a charter management scheme but clearly I suspect any such schemes might have a limitation on usage ?

It varies hugely. When I had my boat 20 odd years ago the "standard" deals were either 50% purchase, no costs or income but up to 6 weeks usage a year or 100% income at then 10-12% and 6 weeks usage and contract length 6 seasons. VAT payable at the end of the contract at the written down value, in my case on the 50% of the initial cost that I paid. Since then contracts have become more flexible particularly with smaller operators and any increased personal usage is offset by lower income or greater amounts up front.

These deals are not suitable for everybody so you have to think long term and particularly whether you are able to use the "free" weeks and what you are going to do with the boat when you take it over (or trade it in for a new contract). For us it really paid off as we borrowed the 50% purchase price against our house on interest only and had 3 weeks on average each year. Effectively the annual interest was less than 2 weeks commercial charter rates. The boat was then chartered under an agency contract for a year and the surplus equalled half the final VAT payment. After a couple of years I sailed the boat back (well by truck from Spain) and a couple of years later part exchanged it for a new boat. The allowance was more than original cost plus VAT. So effectively we had 15 years free boating, 10 of them in the med, but the annual value was in the holidays. As always a bit of "man maths" involved, but I have accounting training so my figures are more realistic than most.

I have, however seen people come unstuck mainly because their circumstances change. It is a long term commitment and the asset is illiquid in that it is difficult to get out of the contract and sometime difficult to sell the boat at the end if you don't want to keep it. Nothing worse than getting stuck with a boat you can't sell sitting thousands of miles away from home. I was in a secure well paid job with a relatively small mortgage on the house and the boat never represented more than 10% of our net assets and repayment of the mortgage was more than covered by other investments due to pay out on my retirement.

 

[baart]

suspect any such schemes might have a limitation on usage ?

There are schemes around without such restrictions that allow older boats if deemed suitable. One example - Managed Yacht Charter - Hamble Point Yacht Charters

 

[Sailfree]

What are your thoughts on putting the boat into one of those charter management schemes that several companies in the Solent area seem to offer? If that could contribute to the cost of ownership I guess I could increase the budget and get something newer. For the first few years from purchase we wouldn't use the boat that much so instead of having it sitting there when we are not sailing it could generate some money. The schemes I have seen seem to offer a 60/40 split. If that money pays for berthing and servicing I would be happy. Just not sure if it would ? Is it worth it ?

When we bought our first new boat a Dufour36 we put it on charter with Hamble School of Yachting. It had a hard life going out in all conditions and being used as sleeping accomodation when not out sailing for shore based courses.


I had heard good reports about Hamble Point Yacht Charters and asked whether I could transfer the boat to them. Doug (the previous owner of HPYC) politely declined, saying an ex sailing school boat was not the type they wanted.

In 2001, planning to buy another new boat (PX the old boat) I again approached Hamble Point Yacht Charters and the new boat went on their fleet. They helped get it charter coded and maintained it well. The charter coding cost roughly an extra £10,000 but there is little that you would not want or include anyway. The advantage then was to register for VAT and get the purchase VAT refunded. All invoices you then had to charge VAT. A disadvantage is that the boat had to be berthed at Hamble Point at exorbitant cost.

I repeated the exercise in 2005 with a new Jeanneau 43.

At that time I was working hard often abroad but always tried to book the boat for our own use 1 weekend a month plus annual holidays - and invoice myself. An unused boat does decay! A thought for you is to buy a privately owned properly maintained ex-charter boat, its price should reflect its use and condition but its like a car with regular use and high mileage may be more reliable that one unused and left on the drive for months at a time with rusty discs and sticking brakes. And no mine with it cream leather interior , 2 chartplotters, fully battened main , fitted box sprung mattress and bimini hood plus cockpit tent is not for sale - trust you get the picture. There will be a number for sale in Greece, Croatia and Caribbean (but that may be too far!) but make sure its one thats well equipped.


With running costs neither boats ever showed a profit and I had to invoice myself for own use. In those days you could offset losses in one business against other income and I did get income tax refunds but my accountant warning me that there must be an intention to make a profit and as some date the IR would disallow the losses.


Is it worth it. Well it enabled me to buy more expensive boats and subsidised the running costs but it was disappointing when the new fully battened main got ripped on its first outing due to negligence in trying to hoist it with one reefing tie left on or the first major scratch etc. Repairs were paid for by the negligent Charters deposit but repairs cannot always make something like new.


I was with HPYC when the ownership changed to Karen Potts and she has insisted that HPYC maintain the high standards she inherited from Doug, they were both good (and paid monthly Income Invoices promptly) and the maintenance staff were good and knowledgeable.


I took the boat out of charter with HPYC in 2014 when I retired and refurbished it. HPYC assisted in the refurbishment. I moved it to our YC on S coast and berthing fees went from £11,600 down to £4,600.

I did it honestly and survived an IR "enquiry" plus a VAT inspection. I had to invoice myself for personal use including the VAT!!

I believe a number manage to sail close to the wind and find charter management more lucrative than me.

I don't think Hertz car hire use old cars and I don't think a reputable charter company would want an old or tatty boat.

One aspect that I did discover was the boats that wear well with the harder use of the charter market. Bavaria's, Dufours and Jeanneau's did well in the period when I was chartering.

Hope this gives food for thought. I have just gone on HPYC website and Karen Potts is still the owner.. If you are in a position to buy a good boat and are serious about the possibility of the charter market I suggest going along for a chat with HYPC.

One company that I did not go with owned about 60% of their own boats - guess which one got recommended for charter first!!

Obviously I have had no connection with HPYC since 2014 but knowing the owners (for the substantial period my boat was with them) I doubt if the standards have dropped since then.

 

[Tranona]

There are schemes around without such restrictions that allow older boats if deemed suitable. One example - Managed Yacht Charter - Hamble Point Yacht Charters

Slightly cynical view but "suitable" probably means looks good in the list of their "fleet" rather than likely to get good bookings!. There is always an excess supply of boats available for charter except perhaps at peak times and charterers in general want the biggest flashiest newest boat they can get so as Sailfree says, "owned" boats and newer boats get the first choice. Unless your boat is very unusual you are unlikely to get enough bookings to cover even the basic running costs which include initially the cost of coding.

On a more subjective level you have to accept that the boat then becomes a business and is no longer your personal toy, so removal of personal gear and just leaving things that are essential is sensible. Some people have no problem with strangers using their boat, but it is made easier if you are making a "profit" or at least making a significant contribution to costs. My boat needed 14 weeks usage a year under management to break even. In the last year I chartered it I got 17 weeks hence a surplus for the year. While the professional operators like Sunsail will get that sort of usage in the UK, boats at the bottom end like private older boats might get 5 or 6 weeks in peak times a year.

 

[doris]

i read with interest the threads regarding loss of Keels having had mine removed recently for maintenance (I said I was a bit OCD.) in defence I had spotted some tea staining that appeared earlier this year, even though yard Manager said he had seen far worse for peace of mind it seemed worthwhile especially as my furler needed replacing so the standing rigging needed work anyway so removal of keel and replacement of all rigging wasn’t such a big jump.

What was interesting once the keel was dropped was that the cast iron fin keel had been bonded to shiny gel coat and the yard Manager had his suspicions that the releasing agent from the mold had still been present.

That might explain why the keel separated so easily once keel bolt’s removed. So with the grp properly prepared before bonding I should now have a more secure joint than when it left the factory.

As an East coast sailor I just need to make sure I don’t touch the bottom.

I thought ploughing was part of the fun over there!!!!

 

[johnalison]

I thought ploughing was part of the fun over there!!!!

Not really. It is part of one's duty to do a bit of dredging, for the community.