First 6 months with no gas onboard

[Chiara’s slave]

Weight saving… a subject obviously very dear to my heart. We don’t cut off our toothbrush handles, but we do taper most of our lines, and use very small ones too. A 280ah lithium weighs less than our pair of lead batteries, and by quite a margin. Then there's ditching the gas installation. And not having gas is surely a safety improvement. The idea is attractive to us, we don’t live at anchor for months, and could use shore power a bit when cruising, it’s all European/uk. We tend to eat out or takeaway mostly anyway, or bring pre cooked food. Mrs C is addicted to tea. For the simplicity, not to mention the £60 a poxy tiny gas bottle exchange costs, it might be worth our while.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I am sure you know everything

I am a complete ignoramus, just like X-Yachts, the 1 million or so Victron Connect users, and Nigel Calder to name a few. They are all probably sitting twiddling their thumbs somewhere waiting for parts .....

The system I am building is a combined Integrel/Victron system. This compliments the 1,26kW of solar as I needed another source of power but didn't want a second diesel engine in the form of a generator. My boat has a large generator compartment behind the engine, and I'm in the process of filling it with a high quality, fully integrated Victron lithium system and 9kW Integrel generator that admittedly costs a fair amount of money - so what? It's a very nice setup with a host of features that I value. The Smart BMS has fuse monitoring, a precharging circuit to prevent high inrush currents when the inverter switches on, an integrated 500A contactor which can be controlled remotely, 2 programmable relays (one of which I intend to use for cooling fans), comms to deliver info, control and device integration, batteries which can easily be opened giving direct access to the cells if open-heart surgery ever becomes necessary. The attached Ekrano GX is a UI for everything and is mirrored on my plotters. It can also do DVCC which I alluded to before. The Ekrano GX can be replaced with a much cheaper Raspberry Pi which I briefly had in my camper van (running VIctrons Venus OS) but it needed regular attention as you're effectively a system integrator at this point - so now it's a spare part in a cupboard.

Here's the blurb on Integrel/Victron integration ... Integrel System

Who needs a standalone generator…​

As a fellow sailor friend (MD of OceanTools) said when I told him about Integrel: “I’ve been saying for years that a cruising yacht doesn’t need two engines.”

Or as Nigel puts it: “This system is the one I’ve always wanted in my own boat for the last 35 years and now it has been finally achieved.” In fact he calls it – his retirement present to the cruising community – which over the years represents around ten million dollars in grant and R&D investment with both lab and on the water testing.

By doing away with a separate generator, Triskel get typical standalone generator outputs using just Integrel. This has many benefits; for instance less space required, fewer through hulls, less expensive than an equivalent separate generator and as efficient as one, no extra separate generator running hours or maintenance.

Having satisfied themselves of the reliability and efficiency of the system, Integrel is now available commercially and it looks like it may become the de facto standard for cruising yachts. Who needs a separate generator anyhow…

... and their award .... Integrel Solutions receives the Dame Overall Winner Award 2018

Nigel Calder trying to break it ...

X-Yachts offering Victron lithium based full-electric cooking on their XR 41, a bit behind certain forum members, but they got there in the end

The XR41 will also be the first X-Yachts with electric cooking as standard. A possibility due to the lithium battery bank fitted onboard. The yacht will as standard be equipped with a gimballed two burner induction cooktop that can be upgraded with electric oven. Using electric cooking will remove the headache of finding matching gas cylinders when sailing on holiday from country to country – and it also saves weight and increases safety onboard. In total our calculations indicate a weigh saving around 100kg compared to a yacht built more traditionally.

As additional standard features, the XR41 will have a large digital touch display from Victron, smart monitoring of battery bank and the possibility to monitor the boat systems from home. As an option, the XR41 will be offered with a variety of hydraulic options enabling to trim mainsail and jib without easing sheets first. Load cells for forestay, backstay/runners and jib luff are also offered in combination with two attractive electronic packages tailor made for the XR41 – but we will tell more about this later.

NEW XR 41 – NEW TECHNOLOGY! |

.... I know, I should still have built my own system from Alibaba parts, and paid more attention to Andy from Off Grid Garage but I want to build this and just use it, and not spend my time in a continuous state of experimentation trying to find disparate parts and persuade them to work efficiently together, not to mention multiple apps and settings, and those infuriating "oh f**k, that's how it works" moments where you discover that some small detail means a part won't do what you expected it to do.

... in the end, I ltook the advice of @lustyd ....

Victron probably make their own patterns, but these won't be far off the generic stuff from a hardware perspective since they will still use the same SOCs and other components. The value add here is the firmware, integration, testing, distribution and global certification, creation of usable manuals in multiple languages, development of training materials and testing to ensure there are professionals able to install the stuff. All this adds cost, but personally I think there's a lot of value in that stuff for someone that wants to fit and forget then go out sailing. I hate waste so buying 5 different cheap things in the hopes of getting something that works is appalling to me, and Neeves example of the vendor saying dump it demonstrates that some of this stuff is literally manufactured waste.

Haven't got to the AC side of the system figured out yet, but I have a 5kW inverter to play with and currently just a kettle, toaster, and coffee machine on board running off the current inverter (but not at the same time). Will get the system running and see how much energy I get out of it.

 

[Momac]

My wife refused to look at a boat with electric cooking but no gas cooking which saved me about £70k

 

[PhillM]

I like meths stoves. I am sure there are meths powered overns too

 

[Dockhead]

And so much cleaner too. No more blackened pans, and a simple flat glass cooktop.
(There's probably some health benefits from removing a source of particulate emissions in your home too)

SOME health benefits removing it from a voluminous land home, HUGE health benefits removing from the cabin of a yacht.

Ours was built with a powered exhaust hood to get rid of the combustion products, but you can still feel the air pollution, when gas is being used.

 

[Dockhead]

Its a yacht, built primarily to be sailed from A to B. The advantages of Lithium are all documented.

If you want to make the yacht as efficient as possible then when you rewire to accomodate Lithium you also downsize your windlass motor to use less power, you run smaller power cables, you use smaller chain and reduce the weight in the bow - its a yacht not a means of carrying unnecessary weight across the Atlantic. You prioritise the galley, I prioritise sailing performance and comfort. . . .

Just FYI, downsizing the the windlass motor won't save you any power to speak of. The power used is proportional to the work done, adjusted by whatever differences in efficiency, but those are small adjustments indeed. And a smaller motor may be more or less efficient than a larger one.

Smaller power cables will definitely cost you more power.

Smaller chain? To each his own. I like my own 330kg anchor chain. YMMV.

 

[Sea Change]

I like meths stoves. I am sure there are meths powered overns too

As per the start of this thread, it would be interesting to see what six months of full time liveaboard life looks like with this option. I suspect the cost and volume of alcohol required would look quite significant.
My only experience of alcohol/meths for cooking is my little Trangia camping stove. I like the simplicity, but that's possibly the only real advantage that it has. I presume the boat ones are more powerful.

 

[Stemar]

I like meths stoves. I am sure there are meths powered overns too

Just so long as the crew isn't meth powered too

 

[oldmanofthehills]

As per the start of this thread, it would be interesting to see what six months of full time liveaboard life looks like with this option. I suspect the cost and volume of alcohol required would look quite significant.
My only experience of alcohol/meths for cooking is my little Trangia camping stove. I like the simplicity, but that's possibly the only real advantage that it has. I presume the boat ones are more powerful.

Alcohol stoves also promote black moulds as that mould just thrives on alcohol fumes - unlike me who needs it in liquid form and doesnt smear myself on coach roof lining.

Didnt like the smell of commercial meths when burning and one better not be in a hurry with and Origo stove

 

[Moodysailor]

We bought a boat that needs a full refit, and an early decision we made was to ditch the gas and go full electric for cooking. Having had an induction cooker at home we know how efficient and safe they are.
We have different considerations, given that our cruising ground will be the UK, yes we will have as much solar as we can sensibly fit (it's a ketch so no arch, and i'm not hanging a solar array off the back) but there will be limitations around 400W. Given the potential challenges with getting enough power on a 34ft yacht we are happy with the benefit vs drawback. No gas onboard (we get one more locker for storage), we had to buy a new stove anyway and an induction cooktop and air fryer were cheaper. Less summer heat & condensation and an easier galley worktop to cleanup. Yes we accept we will need to run the engine for charging, but we plan to be in marinas every few nights anyway as we have two dogs so will charge there when we can.
As it's a full refit we are also fitting a hydronic water heater as well as a diesel air heater - we have the space and it's a cruising boat so weight is not a worry. Having hydronic means we can downsize the calorifier as we don't need to think the same way about creating and storing hot water, so there is an offset there in terms or cost, weight and space (the smaller calorifier and hyrdonic system are the same price as a bigger calorifier on it's own).
It is nice to consider the newer technologies when refitting and use the best available technology at the budget. Now that there is more competition, we can also get better prices - a lot of what we are getting are cheaper brands for now, once the infrastructure is in place we can upgrade in years if we find something fails early on or we need to change.
Our big limitation is the inverter wiring as we are 12V. I toyed changing the primary domestic side to 24V, and may go that route yet to help with inverter wiring but would need to be careful as much of the existing will remain 12V.

 

[Sea Change]

We bought a boat that needs a full refit, and an early decision we made was to ditch the gas and go full electric for cooking. Having had an induction cooker at home we know how efficient and safe they are.
We have different considerations, given that our cruising ground will be the UK, yes we will have as much solar as we can sensibly fit (it's a ketch so no arch, and i'm not hanging a solar array off the back) but there will be limitations around 400W. Given the potential challenges with getting enough power on a 34ft yacht we are happy with the benefit vs drawback. No gas onboard (we get one more locker for storage), we had to buy a new stove anyway and an induction cooktop and air fryer were cheaper. Less summer heat & condensation and an easier galley worktop to cleanup. Yes we accept we will need to run the engine for charging, but we plan to be in marinas every few nights anyway as we have two dogs so will charge there when we can.
As it's a full refit we are also fitting a hydronic water heater as well as a diesel air heater - we have the space and it's a cruising boat so weight is not a worry. Having hydronic means we can downsize the calorifier as we don't need to think the same way about creating and storing hot water, so there is an offset there in terms or cost, weight and space (the smaller calorifier and hyrdonic system are the same price as a bigger calorifier on it's own).
It is nice to consider the newer technologies when refitting and use the best available technology at the budget. Now that there is more competition, we can also get better prices - a lot of what we are getting are cheaper brands for now, once the infrastructure is in place we can upgrade in years if we find something fails early on or we need to change.
Our big limitation is the inverter wiring as we are 12V. I toyed changing the primary domestic side to 24V, and may go that route yet to help with inverter wiring but would need to be careful as much of the existing will remain 12V.

Electric cooking is a no brainer for us because we sail in sunny places and have 1350w of solar.

It'll definitely be trickier on a smaller boat in the UK. I've had the luxury of not having to really think about how to charge my batteries- solar alone does just fine almost all of the time.

What are your plans for engine charging? It's probably worth putting some thought in to this as the usual answer of using the stock alternator and a DC-DC isn't really very effective or efficient. People do it because it's cheap and easy and it's often good enough, if your power demand is low.

 

[Moodysailor]

Electric cooking is a no brainer for us because we sail in sunny places and have 1350w of solar.

It'll definitely be trickier on a smaller boat in the UK. I've had the luxury of not having to really think about how to charge my batteries- solar alone does just fine almost all of the time.

What are your plans for engine charging? It's probably worth putting some thought in to this as the usual answer of using the stock alternator and a DC-DC isn't really very effective or efficient. People do it because it's cheap and easy and it's often good enough, if your power demand is low.

Thanks, you are right that it’s more of a consideration here in the UK.

In summer I think we’ll be fine with solar charging and topping up when we motor. We have a 40A DC/DC but it’s not ideal using the iron sail to trickle charge a battery as you rightly say.

When the weather is more “UK” we’ll need a backup plan - for us that will be marinas and wind when we can afford it. I don’t plan to run the engine just to charge the battery unless it’s needed, instead I’d like to use a combination of solar and wind (one is always available here).

Our cruising habits, at least in the first few seasons will involve regular stops in marinas. If we get to the stage where we are spending more time away from shore power, I’ll need to look at the setup again. My mind is thinking of diesel hybrid propulsion if we get to that point as I can charge very quickly from that system. I have overhauled rather than replacing the engine during this refit in case we decide to go that way in future.

 

[Sea Change]

Thanks, you are right that it’s more of a consideration here in the UK.

In summer I think we’ll be fine with solar charging and topping up when we motor. We have a 40A DC/DC but it’s not ideal using the iron sail to trickle charge a battery as you rightly say.

When the weather is more “UK” we’ll need a backup plan - for us that will be marinas and wind when we can afford it. I don’t plan to run the engine just to charge the battery unless it’s needed, instead I’d like to use a combination of solar and wind (one is always available here).

Our cruising habits, at least in the first few seasons will involve regular stops in marinas. If we get to the stage where we are spending more time away from shore power, I’ll need to look at the setup again. My mind is thinking of diesel hybrid propulsion if we get to that point as I can charge very quickly from that system. I have overhauled rather than replacing the engine during this refit in case we decide to go that way in future.

Don't get your hopes up too much about a wind gen. They need to be pretty big and expensive to produce any meaningful power. Most harbours and anchorages are too sheltered for them really.
I've had two and usually just keep them tied up because of the noise.

Your best bet might be to go for the biggest battery bank you can fit. That way you can run for several days between marina stays.