YM article fog/Salcombe

[Magic_Sailor]

In the "What should he do" article in this months YM, I'm not sure I agree with the answer given.

This was - Fred's got a GPS, wind with tide, no swell he could probably get into Salcombe safely.

However, the question is "what should he do?" Not, "what would you do?"

Now Fred (I forget his name) suddenly finds himself in fog at night (note) and 1 hour later (note) (when it's daylight) calls the rest of the crew on deck and instructs all the crew to put their lifejackets on. I read that as no one had jackets on

There's an arguement which says that everyone should wear a life jacket all the time. There's another arguement which says everyone should definitely wear a lifejacket at night and clip on. There's an even better arguement that says that everyone should wear a lifejacket in fog and clip on. In fog, at night - even better. But, Fred only thought to do this after they entered the fog.

Given that that doesn't appear to be the action of an experienced Skipper, could he really be expected to get a boat into a relatively narrow harbour with rocks (awash I think) on the 2 metre line. OK so he's got GPS but what if it fails at a crucial moment (as sod's law says it will). What if he panics under pressure (which can happen in fog - even on a YM exam!)

No, given Fred's apparent (I stress) lack of experience, I think he should've put up with SWMBO's moans and gone round the Start to anchor up until things cleared - he had plenty of sea room to make that decision and plenty of tide to help him.

You never know, in the time it would take to get round the headland, the fog could've lifted somewhat.

What do you think me hearties?



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[billmacfarlane]

I'd have done the same as the mythical Fred. He's got a working GPS , log , echo sounder and compass. You don't need anything more to navigate efficiently , fog or otherwise. In a pea souper it doesn't really matter whether it's day or night - the vis is the same - usually zero, though the darkness sometimes has a psychological effect on people. The only thing he hasn't got is a radar and the risk of collision applies equally to both Salcombe and Dartmouth. There is an argument for/against lifejackets , harnesses etc that has been done to death many times on this forum. My own tuppence worth ( showing my age with that one ) is that in thick fog I have my crew in lifejackets . I can't see the point of harnessing yourself to a boat that might get sliced in two. At night I insist upon a harness for the simple reason that you'll never be far from the boat. On normal daytime conditions I personally wear neither harness or lifejacket but any crew has the option of either if the want.

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[AndrewB]

Agree.

It would be pretty wimpish not to attempt Salcombe even in the days before GPS, assuming he'd kept his DR up to date and his other navigation kit was reliable.

There is no way to get experience without trying.

 

[Peppermint]

Re: Agree 2

It's not too trickey plenty of clues on the approach. Often The cliffs on the Bolt Head side stick up out of the fog in those parts. His problems start when he gets in. Traffic Moorings & Anchored Boats.

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[Guest]

I also felt uncomfortable with the published answer, having sailed that area frequently (I'm based in Devon). I also have made Salcombe my landfall after a channel crossing. Fred (Harry, actually) has likely been using at least 3 charts on the trip (departure port, western approaches and detail for Salcombe), I suspect each with different datum. Forgetting to enter the new datum on his GPS could well lead him to the wrong side of the relatively narrow approach to Salcombe. An echo sounder would not help avoid the steep rocky shore on the west side, only visual navigation. There is the possibility the fog may lift as he nears land, alternatively, I have seen it come rolling in to Salcombe thick as can be, so he shouldn't count on visibility. DR position would be doubtful after such a long passage.
I would try an entry ONLY with BOTH GPS AND radar fully functioning. Otherwise it's a rest in Start Bay for me, giving Start Point a wide berth, and when the fog clears, then Dartmouth (much nicer than Salcombe, and cheaper for visitors now, but I'm biased).

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[Guest]

Wimps.

I once visited a large industrial plant with a huge slogan across three big silos "BE ALERT - LERTS LIVE LONGER". I suspect wimps do too....and I'm not ashamed to be one occassionally when at the sea. My crew have even thanked me for it from time to time.

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[hlb]

Well. I've gone out of Salcolme in thick fog. Never saw a thing. No buoys, no rocks. Nothing. So I suppose I could have turned round and come back. Mind you the radar and chart plotters are wonderfull!!

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue> Haydn

 

[graham]

A vessel with working radar and someone who can use it to plot the courses of other vessels can operate with reasonable safety in fog.

GPS only tells you whereyouare.

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[bigmart]

Re: Wimps.

He who runs away today lives to run away another day>

Martin

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[AndrewB]

Yukkkk! With that philosophy ...

... just think how much longer you'd live if you stayed safely at HOME in BED.

Seriously though, those 'yachtsmen' who duck every challenge, even the comparatively safe ones like this, sooner or later risk getting caught out in a situation they can't handle, because they lack experience of ever having coped with anything out of the ordinary.

I'm surprised you aren't recommending calling out the lifeboat as the answer. You will do, you know, one day.

 

[bigmart]

Re: Yukkkk! With that philosophy ...

The point is that you can't be ducking every challenge if you go to sea at all. There is a point however when it is sensible to retreat. It is the mark of a good skipper to recognise that point & take the appropriate action.

You will only truly understand where that point, is after you have made a few mistakes ,& survived to tell the tale.

Martin

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[Guest]

Turning Back

I have sailed for many years, but I must admit on a number of occasions, I have ditched my sail plan and turned back or taken an escape route. Should I be ashamed to admit this? No question, as a person, I play safe. On reflection, I have absolutely no regrets, nor do I feel a wimp. On some occassions, I think if I had persevered, I could have made it, but so what. Next time I will - you learn both ways. I have taken numerous risks in my day (both on and off the water) but I must admit, in hindsight, sometimes I was just lucky to get away with it. I remember an instructor saying years ago, never undertake a manoever (or passage) where success is not assured UNLESS you have an SAFE alternative or exit available. I may be a wimp at times, but at least I'm here to admit it. I have a couple of sailing friends who have had the RNLI assist them on more than one occassion. I have immense respect for the RNLI, but in each of these first hand stories, I believe the "casualty" had a lot to answer for. I continue to contribute to the RNLI with pleasure, because I might be next in need for whatever reason.

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[Magic_Sailor]

Re: Wimps.

Yes

AndrewB mentioned that you've got to do it to gain experience. Which is undoubtedly true. However, it depends upon the size of the difference between your current experience and what you're expected to do right now as to whether that particular leap should be taken - or whether its a leap too far.



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[claymore]

Re: Yukkkk! With that philosophy ...

Hmm
I think I agree with this. When you are out there you become acclimatized to conditions and tend to be working up your game plan and options as things develop. I don't think looking at these problems really mirrors reality - we are left short of information about the skipper - is he intent on developing his experience by trying for this in conditions he possibly hasn't experienced before - or is he content to only try to be out there when conditions suit. As Andrew rightly points out, sooner or later we all end up in conditions we perhaps would have chosen to avoid. This is key to the development of our skills as skippers - I haven't sailed in Salcombe but it sounds from other posts that there are plenty of clues around and the boat is equipped with gps. I never get too stressed about the failure of GPS. Apart from the fact that mine has never ever conked (touch wood) if it did - the discipline of keeping a log means that you should only be 59mins from your last update. In this case, travelling along at night in foggy conditions the boatspeed is possibly unlikely to be more than 2-4 knots so that doesn't present a massive navigational conundrum. If the skipper has had the tenacity, courage, sense of adventure to do an overnight passage in the first place, I think he should be confident enough to continue.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[vyv_cox]

Re: Yukkkk! With that philosophy ...

Entirely agree with you. As usual, haven't read the article because subscription copies arrive here anything up to a month late although they only come from Belgium, just down the road.

Last year we intended sailing from Stellendam to Scheveningen on one of our long weekends. At Stellendam we met thick fog, fog-horn on the breakwater sounding. "No problem" we said, "we know the buoyed channel like the back of our hands, we have the route marked with quite a few waypoints for just this eventuality, maybe the fog will be clear when we get to the sea, about 6 miles." So we set off. I have to say that this was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. Visibility was somewhere around 30 metres which was not sufficient to see from one channel mark to the next. After nearly hitting a couple of the buoys we anchored for an hour or so, the fog didn't lift and we returned to Stellendam. The plotter was very useful and we would not have got as far as we did without it. Depth sounder was useless as the channel here is only notional and there is a general depth of only 2 - 3 metres. There was no way that this was a safe exercise and I am in no doubt that we were correct to stop and turn back. We are now installing radar, to a large degree as the result of this experience.

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[Guest]

Re: Yukkkk! With that philosophy ...

Having sailed in and out of Salcombe on numerous occasions in all sorts of weather I would suggest that to attempt an entry in the conditions described would be foolhardy when there is a perfectly safe alternative to hand - i.e tuck in behind Start Point until the fog clears.I think Andrew B is being harsh in describing this approach as wimpish.In my experience gear failure often occurs at the worst possible time.To attempt the entry for the sake of some sort of character forming exercise is to my mind silly.Fred should look at the faces of his crew and then visualise trying to explain his actions to their family in the event of an accident.

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[jamesjermain]

Re: Wimps.

'When running it's not the 'where to?' that's important, it's the 'what from'. - Terry Pratchet (Rincewind)

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[Happy1]

Re: Yukkkk! With that philosophy ...

Now MOB in the fog, that would be interesting !!! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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[Twister_Ken]

What are his alternatives?

1. Go in to Salcombe
2. Round the Start and anchor
3. Press on for Dartmouth

As the article states, each of these has risks. What the article doesn't do is talk about communication.

With hindsight, I think the first thing he should do is stop the boat (heave to), and try and raise Salcombe HM on VHF, or failing that any vessel in Salcombe, and get an actual report on viz inshore. If it is better in the estuary and the river, then the answer is almost certainly 'go for it'.

If it's thick inshore as well, then his next option is the Start. Again an any vessel call for craft in the proximity of Start Point might get him a viz report (remember, thick fog can be very patchy). If it's thick at the Start as well, then try and raise Dartmouth HM or any vessel Dartmouth, to get an actual from there.

Once he's been through this procedure, he has expanded his knowledge and is better equipped to take a decision.

I actually think there is a fourth alternative, which is to remain heaved-to, monitor his position carefully on GPS to make sure he is not being swept in to danger, keep a visual and aural look-out, put out an all ships every 15 minute, warning of his posn, and wait to see if the sun burns the fog off.

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[Peppermint]

Funnily enough

You get a fair amount of GPS failure just to the east of Salcombe. It's quite localised but it leads to a fair few lifeboat shout's. It clears before you get off the entrance though.

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