Would you do a yachtmaster practical if you didn't need the crew component?

[Kukri]

My understanding is that the guidelines for the conducting of YM exams have tightened up over the years. If someone approached me asking me to conduct their YM offshore or coastal exam, I first have to clear it with the RYA and if they were going to do it solo I’d be asking questions of the chief examiner as well. It hasn’t happened yet so I can’t give you a definitive answer or guide as to what he is likely to say. If anyone is really interested, then phone and talk to Richard Falk who is the person to ask and I’ve no doubt he will put you right.

Tom did clear his examination of Ian with whoever was in charge in those days. I remember because they both told me! But I think the direct examination system has stopped.

 

[laika]

Usually the "but I want to do YM single handed!" is accompanied by "it's sooo unfair that the qualification for handling boats up to 24m can't be examined on my 7m boat"

Now I was going to say "do you actually single hand a 20-odd metre boat and can you really get 150nm offshore and back solo before you get too tired to maintain a proper lookout?"

But then I noticed that the OP's username is "athomson" so I'll just keep quiet.

 

[awol]

Blind navigation might be a tad difficult single-handed?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

If you can do the exam in the very easiest circumstances of the crew being supportive friends you have sailed with many times before I don't believe that that is such a thorough test of a persons ability to manage any crew they might encounter,

I don’t believe you have met my wife and family. Or at least, bearing in mind your user name, you haven’t sailed with them.

 

[flaming]

If you can do the exam in the very easiest circumstances of the crew being supportive friends you have sailed with many times before I don't believe that that is such a thorough test of a persons ability to manage any crew they might encounter, that without it you can't possibly be passed as a YM. It makes no sense. To be able to demonstrate all the things asked of you while single handed, safely, while maintaining watch, while feeding and emptying yourself etc is SOOOO much harder. But some people are indignant about such a skilled person being awarded a YM. I'm baffled. The odds that said person can't also delegate some tasks if he had some crew are pretty slim. "Bob steer 270" oh the challenge. "oh but he might be a captain Bligh type!", so what! Then no one will sail with him and the problem has been self limited. At least he has been checked in his proficiency to solo rather than tested with 5 crew to do everything and then he solos having barely a clue how to do it safely.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that singlehanding is too easy. I think the point being made is that it is very different. And that managing a crew is an important skill that a holder of a YM should demonstrate.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

If it's just for confirmation. You could if course do the YM exam with a random group - like most do - and if you fail it they'll give you pretty good feedback. Just ignore the bits where they criticise your lack of crew awareness. You'd get the feedback which is apparently what you're after.

I'd note that single handers do sail with passengers sometimes, and passengers require management too. I think a guy who was about to set off solo around the world came unstuck with pax on a pre-departure jolly in Newcastle once. Although I don't recall if it was his crew management that was the issue.

 

[lustyd]

And that managing a crew is an important skill that a holder of a YM should demonstrate.

Hard to argue - it's part of the syllabus. The discussion was whether there ought to be a second syllabus without what some deem an unnecessary requirement and instead a different requirement for different (solo) skills, perhaps for a different qualification

 

[dunedin]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that singlehanding is too easy. I think the point being made is that it is very different. And that managing a crew is an important skill that a holder of a YM should demonstrate.

So should a yacht master test ALSO include demonstrating single handed skills? Otherwise missing a key element of the expertise, being biased to the fully crewed element ps only.

 

[ylop]

Hard to argue - it's part of the syllabus. The discussion was whether there ought to be a second syllabus without what some deem an unnecessary requirement and instead a different requirement for different (solo) skills, perhaps for a different qualification

I think if you don’t call it YM at all then nobody will object. Of course if you don’t call it YM then 1/2 the people that might have been interested may no longer care.

there are schools offering non-RYA accredited training such as: Short Handed Cruising Course Couples Cruising - Coastal, Offshore - Barefoot Offshore Sailing School presumably if enough people do those courses then RYA will formulate a “Shorthanded sailing” course the same as there is a pilotage course on the motorboat pathway - it has no special meaning, it’s just a useful thing to do to gain some specific experience. My guess would be that most people would do it after YM Coastal though! Getting people to do a course to learn new skills that make their life easier is one challenge. Getting them to spend money on an exam (which they might fail) and which is not useful for anything else is a rather harder struggle.

 

[Adios]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that singlehanding is too easy. I think the point being made is that it is very different. And that managing a crew is an important skill that a holder of a YM should demonstrate.

Very different to single hand? Then surely you can't call yourself a YM unless you can demonstrate your abilities to safely solo yes? The reason you don't need to demonstrate you can single hand is because actually all of the functions are exactly the same and what needs to be done is not at all different. If you are crewed you have to think what needs to be done next and you can either do it yourself or delegate. If you are solo you have to think what needs to be done next and do it yourself. The only difference I can think of is solo you need to make sure you are doing things sufficiently in advance that you still have time to do all the other things you need to do in order not at once. That makes a single hander very likely to be a good crew master because the crew will be getting instructions with plenty of time to spare.

I watched a single hander come into Teignmouth recently and only when he was being washed between the moored boats in the narrow harbour did he start to get his fenders out. Struck me he was probably someone used to having crew. Conversely someone used to single handing would probably have got his crew to put the fenders out before they got to the entrance, no last second shouting at crew likely. The only thing I can think thats different is the single hander does things earlier. I am now though increasingly fascinated to find out what kind of meal is being made out of crew management on the courses as some are obsessing on it like its a pivotal dark art.

 

[lustyd]

Then surely you can't call yourself a YM unless you can demonstrate your abilities to safely solo yes?

No, YM has a set of requirements and solo isn’t on it. RYA have made choices as to what YM includes and that’s what YM is. It would be sensible, but that’s not where we are

 

[ylop]

That makes a single hander very likely to be a good crew master because the crew will be getting instructions with plenty of time to spare.

therein lies the classic mistake of the really good single handed! I know exactly what needs done and how long it will take me so my crew should be able to do what I do when they are not here.

. The only thing I can think thats different is the single hander does things earlier

that’s quite a leap. I don’t know Teignmouth but I see some very capable single handers put fenders out at the last minute because they wait till they are in the shelter of the harbour before leaving the cockpit. I see highly crewed boats putting fenders out early because often the crew are not that experienced and tying a fender (in right place and height) takes minutes not seconds and until they do they are blocking the side deck for everyone else. I see singlehanders with beautifully rehearsed drills picking up mooring bouys without leaving the cockpit and I see couples who have been sailing together for decades make a total mess of it with lots of shouting.

I am now though increasingly fascinated to find out what kind of meal is being made out of crew management on the courses as some are obsessing on it like its a pivotal dark art.

eh? You are the one so put off by this terrible requirement that you think the RYA should redefine YM for people who aren’t good with other people. It is an area where many examiners report that people who aren’t used to sailing with crew struggle, I don’t think anyone is making a meal of it on courses - I’m not aware of anyone “teaching” how to be better at it (the way someone might teach a knot, a col reg or springing off) but some people are so unaware of their own weakness (or full of their own self belief) that they are uncoachable on these soft skills and I imagine the better / more experienced you are as a lone sailer the greater the affront when the instructor or examiner says you aren’t very good at this bit. Perhaps you should go do the course and the exam then come back and report if it was as big a trauma as you made it out to be. (You could go do exam first, if you fail do the course and resit the exam - that would be a good indication if the course helps learn the behaviours necessary?)

 

[Adios]

I don’t know Teignmouth but I see some very capable single handers put fenders out at the last minute because they wait till they are in the shelter of the harbour before leaving the cockpit.

the "harbour" is a fast tidal river just inside a difficult entrance and is packed full of boats. If you get it really wrong there is a low bridge waiting to dismast you. He was fine, didn't hit anything but it did seem putting them out before made more sense and was merely an easy example for you to fail to grasp. It was a calm day at sea so there was no reason not to.

I see highly crewed boats putting fenders out early because often the crew are not that experienced and tying a fender (in right place and height) takes minutes not seconds and until they do they are blocking the side deck for everyone else.

You're a great one for pretending you can't get my point, taking what I say and making it as though i was talking absolutes and throwing it back at me. I don't doubt many crewed boats put fenders out early as well. Jeez.

eh? You are the one so put off by this terrible requirement that you think the RYA should redefine YM for people who aren’t good with other people.

Rubbish, i never said that. I specifically said a number of times that I thought single handers should be able to do the YM coastal as it is. Turns out its not even a requirement so they can, but now it seems like you and a few others are upset with the RYA and so obsessed with crew management presumably you'll want the RYA to change to make it compulsory? Again as I've said before I don't see it as a big deal either way and aren't bothered about having a crew. But 20% of votes are single handers who haven't done a YM but would like to if they can single handed, which is great isn't it? There's really no problem for you in that, no need to be concerned.

 

[ylop]

Rubbish, i never said that. I specifically said a number of times that I thought single handers should be able to do the YM coastal as it is. Turns out its not even a requirement so they can, but now it seems like you and a few others are upset with the RYA and so obsessed with crew management presumably you'll want the RYA to change to make it compulsory? Again as I've said before I don't see it as a big deal either way and aren't bothered about having a crew. But 20% of votes are single handers who haven't done a YM but would like to if they can single handed, which is great isn't it? There's really no problem for you in that, no need to be concerned.

the jury is still our on whether a YM examiner will actually accept that you are adequately crewed for Coastal if it is just you (one person who may or may not actually be an examiner has told you they can, and anecdotally there are historic stories of someone doing it). The RYA are explicit for Offshore that there must be two crew in addition to the examiner and candidate. They are less prescriptive for YM Coastal, but "efficiently crewed" is an interesting term open to interpretation by the examiner. However you are the one who started a thread without determining the facts. Crew management IS part of the YM Coastal syllabus - how they will judge that if you have no crew is a matter for them. I'm perfectly happy that if the RYA think they can judge it from how you interact with the examiner, the experience you present etc, then fine. If you only ever describe single handing, don't make sure the examiner is fed and watered, don't offer them a safety briefing before you leave, don't seem able to describe what you are doing or planning to do in terms that a less experience crew might get, or get flustered under pressure then you may find they aren't convinced. Its not my problem - I'd never consider doing YM Exam without a crew member on board - its seems like making life hard for yourself.

I'm not intentionally twisting what you say and representing as absolutes. I'm taking your statement, analysing it and pointing out the absurdity in it - I assumed you were posting on a discussion forum because you wanted discussion. Perhaps the inability to listen to alternative views and take them on board is a skill you would want to work on before your YM exam; its part of the expectations of crew management.

 

[Adios]

I'm not intentionally twisting what you say and representing as absolutes. I'm taking your statement, analysing it and pointing out the absurdity in it -

I'm sure you don't know you are doing it but you frequently do blow things out of proportion and misrepresent the post you are replying to, not just in this thread. You make someone's post sound absurd when it wasn't so that you can claim it is absurd, neat trick if it wasn't so transparent.

I assumed you were posting on a discussion forum because you wanted discussion. Perhaps the inability to listen to alternative views and take them on board is a skill you would want to work on before your YM exam; its part of the expectations of crew management.

ha ha ha. Clearly my view is the alternative to the norm that you're refusing to listen to, your view is just reiterating the accepted [miss]understanding. I don't mind sticking my neck out to suggest a contentious idea and be heckled, hence the thread to ask people who single hand if they would do a YM. Without such suggestions we stand still. Initially a certain someone could only laugh at it, but we wouldn't have seen that 20% have said yes they would. Is the assumption that crew is required stopping people going down the YM path for no good reason? I certainly wasn't asking for you to tell single handers that they don't deserve the epithet YM if they can't be bothered with crew having sailed for decades without. It might be a positive move to encourage them to do it but you just want to step on it for no good reason.

 

[ylop]

...20% have said yes they would...

And yet your own claim is the they already can, so your 20% of people (8 people!) who want to do this have not actually bothered to enquire if it is possible (assuming your RYA school are correct)! Easy to click a survey (I didn't because I rarely single-hand, and your question asked only single-handers to respond) not quite so easy to actually put your hand in your pocket and book the exam. But do let us know how you get on.

 

[Adios]

And yet your own claim is the they already can, so your 20% of people (8 people!) who want to do this have not actually bothered to enquire if it is possible (assuming your RYA school are correct)! Easy to click a survey (I didn't because I rarely single-hand, and your question asked only single-handers to respond) not quite so easy to actually put your hand in your pocket and book the exam. But do let us know how you get on.

seriously whats your problem, sort of a bitterness coming across. No one in the other thread thought it was possible even the (2) examiners on here. But I'm glad to have highlighted the possibility for people who might want to take it forward. I keep saying thats not me, happy to do with crew, but you can't hear me as usual. That said it sounds like a juicy additional challenge. It would be an achievement to pass single handed and as I typically have single handed including over nights and triple digit voyages I probably should do it single handed to hold my methods up to scrutiny.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

I suppose imagining that from an examiners perspective they might not want to find themselves a few miles offshore with someone who could be completely clueless or bonkers on an unfamiliar boat and having to sail it alone themselves.

 

[Adios]

The resistance to this has been truly bizarre. But now that we're down to fearing it would be beyond a yachtmaster examiner to sail a few miles alone I guess we're near the bottom of the objections barrel?

 

[awol]

The resistance to this has been truly bizarre. But now that we're down to fearing it would be beyond a yachtmaster examiner to sail a few miles alone I guess we're near the bottom of the objections barrel?

I cannot see what possible benefit there would be in gaining a "YM(single-handed)". It might even be seen as proof of inability to cope with other humans well enough to get a proper qualification. Whereas the present YM indicates an ability to interface with a crew and keep them safe - though like a car MOT it only really applies to the day of test.