Would you do a yachtmaster practical if you didn't need the crew component?

[ylop]

So the standard YM Coastal doesn't have a automatic commercial endorsement (I didn't find any mention of it online) but you can do an add on?

I’m not certain exactly what you mean. No course has an automatic commercial endorsement. Some certificates entitle the certificate holder to complete the relevant paperwork (medical certificates, first aid, sea survival etc) and send off an application which gives you a commercial endorsement. yachtmaster coastal is one of those (as is dayskipper, RYA powerboat level 2 etc). To some extent the syllabus for those commercially endorsable courses must be determined by the MCA rather than RYA alone.

In which case whats wrong with the RYA offering the standard YM coastal to people on their own boats sailing as they usually do?

nothing providing that the way you normally sail allows you to show competence in all the relevant parts of the syllabus. There would be nothing in the rules preventing me sitting the exam with my wife and daughter as crew.

What harm can it possibly do to the RYA or the world in general for them to offer that?

assuming you mean let you sit the exam with just you and the examiner? Well the point of a standardised recognised qualification is that the “whole world” know what it means. Insurers. Charter companies. Even friends. You are missing an element of the competencies by not showing how you look after the crew and get them to do what you want, how and when you want it. A YM coastal exam for one candidate is up to 10hrs long, much of it in the dark, with some mentally and physically tiring excercises. The crew management part of the YM would say that one person maintaining a watch for that long is not safe/good practice . How could the RYA then say, unless you are singlehanded sailing - then it is ok. They have some somewhat arbitrary other rules about types of boat, what counts as tidal for hrs/experience etc but anyone designing a certification scheme has to create rules or there is no value to certificates.

 

[capnsensible]

So the standard YM Coastal doesn't have a automatic commercial endorsement (I didn't find any mention of it online) but you can do an add on? In which case whats wrong with the RYA offering the standard YM coastal to people on their own boats sailing as they usually do? Specific question please keep the answer specific. What harm can it possibly do to the RYA or the world in general for them to offer that?

You can obtain a commercial endorsement on Day Skipper, Yachtmaster Coastal, Yachtmaster Offshore and Yachtmaster Ocean. Its all there on the RYA website for those who wish to eqip themselves with support for an argument.

 

[ylop]

... for the small percentage of people who could afford to pay for a coded boat (don't forget, this is commercial so they have no choice) and an instructor for the day to take the exam, or pay for the prep week alone...

I completely agree with everything else you said. However, I am hoping Capn Sense or someone else can confirm if this is true? I don't think a boat needs to be coded for the exam (although it does need to meet the RYA rules on what a properly equipped boat is - so many may need to invest in kit for the exam), or am I incorrect and own boat for the exam must be coded?

 

[Stemar]

Unless you want to go commercial, the Day Skipper course teaches all you need to start handling a boat safely; there are plenty of us, including me, who got that and never darkened the companionway of a training yacht again.

As for crew, I would expect a reasonable degree of competence from yachtmaster candidates, so "that rope over there is a sheet, pull it in a bit" should be "tighten the genny a bit, please", at least the first time.

you can commercially endorse a YM Coastal. It requires you to make long passage overnight which the RYA (rightly in my opinion) considers is something which candidates cannot safely execute alone. Who is maintaining a proper lookout (at all times) when you go to the head or put the kettle on?

If the RYA considers that a long night passage cannot be safely executed alone, where's the "The Golden Globe should be banned" statement?

 

[lustyd]

am I incorrect and own boat for the exam must be coded?

No I think you may be right and I imagined the coded part based on the requirements pretty much being the same as coded ? been a long time since I looked though.

edit: Hmmm I tried to check but it looks like it costs £16 for the book to find out the requirements RYA Boat Safety Handbook (eBook)

 

[Uricanejack]

No.

What would be the point?

Why do a YM.?
It’s a very well recognized standard of achievement. If I was going to go to the bother of doing a YM. I might as well go to the bother of doing the whole thing. rather than a watered down version. Particularly if it wasn’t able to be used commercially.
It just wouldn’t have the same meaning.

Would I take some completely different course. Specifically about single handed sailing. Maybe. Probably not I already quite happily sail single handed. But definitely not a whole YM style course or exam on single handing.

Why do a YM is serious question. We each will have our own answer. For our own reasons.

For me. If I ever do a YM. It would be most likely, I would take an RYA YM course and exam. Because I think I would enjoy it. As a single person going on a sailing holiday a reasonable cost. In an area I am interested in going sailing. With like minded people with a similar interests. with the added bonus, for an old dog, I might learn a few new tricks.

Again my opinion. Learning the crew management part is not that big a deal. Most people will probably enjoy it. Why skip it?
I do sail mostly by myself or just with my wife. single handing quite a lot. I’m not a member of any club. I’m not very sociable but I do like people. Mostly.

For me. A course would be a good way to meet and sail with other people.

 

[dansaskip]

I took my Yachtmaster offshore qualification in my own boat, after several years of mainly solo sailing although I had had crew on occasions.
I never did any RYA practical courses but did the Yachtmaster theory in evening classes
I just asked a friend to come with me. To comply with the RYS's need for crew on the test didn't irk me. I guess having been an outdoor instructor (mainly climbing and mountaineering) no doubt helped in being able to give clear and concise instructions to the crewmember for the day .
I think the point I am making is that sometimes you have to just jump through the hoops as they are presented, yes ok to mutter in your beard about senselessness of some of them ( I frequently do) but at the end of the day it is sometimes easier to just "conform".

 

[Adios]

On a thread which attracts more than its share of interested parties there are less than a quarter saying they'd do such a course, and of those some probably would do the existing syllabus but just wanted to make the point they would prefer the solo option. For the RYA that's not a huge incentive to train up instructors and examiners on a new syllabus, get it approved, marketed etc. for the small percentage of people who could afford to pay for a coded boat (don't forget, this is commercial so they have no choice) and an instructor for the day to take the exam, or pay for the prep week alone. For instructors this would mean occasionally standing and watching boats get damaged as people find they don't have the skills to solo berth a yacht, and the reputational issues that would ensue.
I would very much like to see such a course, but there are certainly practical and business blockers to the RYA doing anything about it.

I don't see why anything would have to be done differently other than not requiring crew, instructors won't need training to assess the sailors capability to manage it alone. Assuming people can have the instructor on their own boat there is no issue with damage etc. Not thinking they'll need a prep week, isn't that more so they can familierise themselves with a new boat and crew? This would simplify and the process and maybe have a days refresher on their own boat beforehand it could reduce the costs as well. (could there be a financial disincentive to allow this?) Not needing crew would mean the current 7m minimum boat could be relaxed. Those ambitious 23ft sailors can accommodate an examiner if not crew.

As for numbers so far 20% have replied they would like to do it solo, seems like a lot. But maybe are afraid to comment as the opposition to the idea is weirdly vociferous which is interesting in itself. 30% aren't intimidated by the idea of doing it with crew so its a 60/40 split of solo sailers who would like to do YM, 40% wanting it solo. Also 33% have already been put of the idea of it at all so don't want to do it either way.

 

[flaming]

A YM practical exam without the crew component would be a completely different beast.

Not saying there isn't merit in such a qualification, but YM it is not.

 

[doug748]

I would not bother but then again I am towards the end of my sailing career. If I was 40 years younger I would certainly consider it, if only as insurance against creeping sailing legislation.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I really don’t understand this… ‘I sail solo so a crew based course/exam is irrelevant to me’ … attitude, much of my sailing has been solo, but there are times when I sail with a crew, and the ability to give them instructions and follow their completion, , understand the need to ensure their safety and ’comfort’ and potentially have them take over the watch, is all part of the skill of seamanship and the YM course and eventually the exam sensibly includes these skills.
There are times when even the most ardent solo sailor may enlist assistance and the ability to calmly and efficiently communicate what they require with others will be necessary.
I would estimate that over the 50 years that I have been sailing 60% has been solo, the rest of the time, in the early days with co-owners of the boat, or latterly with SWMBO.

 

[Uricanejack]

There are many reasons crew can be hard. One of which is ASD. People on the spectrum can find other people stressful and this can lead to more issues than sailing solo. Allowing people with such disabilities to be included in the sport and qualifications would only be a bonus in my opinion, especially given a lot of people on the spectrum are overachievers and are drawn to sports like sailing.

Now you are talking about something else.

Not living in the UK I’m not up to date on UK laws. But the principles are similar. To where I do live.
Does the RYA have a duty to accommodate? Broadly speaking, yes up to a point. Undue hardship. Navigational safety might be considered undue hardship. it’s a really good argument which is probably going to be tough to beat.

Duty to accommodate is usually applied on a case by case basis. in general principle it’s a requirement.
So if an individual has a diagnosed disability for which they are receiving some kind of treatment. The RYA, MCA marine medical would probably have to consult with the specialists involved make a determination based on the specific case.
The degree of impairment would have to be considered,
And a plan to accommodate considered.

The outcome of which somebody might not like.

It is possible to accommodated with a restriction. That restriction would probably be on the Marine Medical. Which effectively limits how a certificate may be used. Not on the certificate itself.

I couldn’t say how ASD would be accommodated. I do know people with other issues. Eg ADSD who are accommodated with restrictions. The problem with certification and medical is usually the medication. The rest is general HR stuff.

One thing I do tell people considering this route, once you go down this road you can’t turn round and go back.

To go down this road,
somebody would need to know, why they need a certificate, which certificate they need, to work And on what type of vessel.
The big part is explaining why they are unable to do, what they are asking to be accommodated for.
And why they should be accommodated.
To get the accommodation is going to require detailed explanation in writing from a professional who deals with the issue.

To get an accommodation for an entry level position. Is not uncommon. To get an accommodation to be in charge of a commercial vessel. is not very common. A small one with limited operating area. Worth a try. If somebody really wanted to.

Is the hassle involved worth while,
To return to work After injury or illness Yes. Absolutely
To get a promotion. Yes Absolutely
To get a new job or new career someone desires. In my opinion yes.
To get a certificate of achievement for a personal goal, with no intent to use commercially. Not really unless for some reason you feel there is a really important principle involved.

 

[Adios]

Well this is an interesting development. I did an ICC assessment on my own plus examiner 20 years ago so just looked to see if thats still possible. I see some places say its a 2 day course inc exam, or you have to do the day skippers if dont already have it. while others its just a 4 hour assessment. No mention of crew with that 4 hour assessment. I also noticed on the RYA website for YM coastal it just says "and [your own boat must] be efficiently crewed, as the examiner will not take part in the management of the boat during the exam." Nothing actually about assessing crew management just that it has to be managed without the examiner.

So I just phoned one of the RYA approved schools and confirmed that yes you can do the ICC still with no crew and in fact you can also do they YM coastal with no crew if you are happy to manage the boat on your own. I pushed further to confirm saying "so its just about managing the boat, I don't need to be assessed on managing crew?" and she said no as long as the boat is managed I can do it on my own with no crew. YM coastal.

Makes the thread a bit redundant, well done RYA for catering for the neuro diverse and non-people-people

 

[dunedin]

I don't see why anything would have to be done differently other than not requiring crew, instructors won't need training to assess the sailors capability to manage it alone.

I guess the MOB bit could be tricky to do solo .

However, I think you do raise a good point. There is clearly a venn diagram of relevant skills
(A) the core basics which apply to all types of voyaging - basic boat knowledge, core sailing skills, navigation, colregs etc
(B) crew management skills
(C) solo voyaging skills

Clearly the people / crew management aspects are very important for sailing on a fully crewed boat. We have probably all experienced the horrors of sailing with a "Captain Bligh" type (and I certainly learned early on that a good skipper skippers from the backstay, or the galley, not from the helm - whether fully crewed or solo).

In essence the entire Yachtmaster training and examining system is built around skill sets A & B, and largely ignores C entirely.
Yet, from what I observe (which probably varies by location and time of year), at least a third, perhaps 40% of boats in NW Scotland are voyaging solo. And perhaps two thirds to 80% including couples or similarly "short handed". The exceptions are often the charter and trip boats - and the sailing schools!

The magazines also tend to fall into this trap - much of reports from actual voyages are solo trips. Yet all of the " how to" articles seem to assume lots of crew - always an instruction to assign another crew member to an additional task.
In part this is practicalities/economics of the sail training industry. The economics of running a school boat plus instructor mean you need to spread the costs across 3 or more paying students. But there is a clear disjoint between how school trips operate and how most people actually sail on their own boats.

I am sure all the YM Instructors & Examiners on here will object and say that the fully crewed training and examining is the most important, and easier to adapt from fully crewed to solo voyaging. But I am not convinced the latter is in fact the case.

As noted, the people/crew management skills are absolutely essential for safety and harmony on board a fully crewed yacht. But, arguably the crew management skills are more readily transferrable from shore and other sport based team skills. (The skills in inspiring and leading people for a scout group, hockey team or work team are directly relevant, and the Captain Bligh's on board a yacht are often equally poor team players ashore).
And, after some painful experience, I would suggest it almost always is a lot more difficult to do things solo - which requires a lot more pre-planning, preparation, care and diligence - than when can throw extra bodies to recover a situation. And I have observed that many very experienced & qualified instructors don't know many of the solo boat handling and mooring skills.

So perhaps there is a gap in the market / certification for a YM solo qualification - which might serve for more voyages than the crowd of 6+ mode.

PS I didn't complete the survey as learnt to sail before the formal RYA/YM scheme and no inclination to get certified for the sake of it. I do have an ICC, obtained for a charter holiday - with exam done on my own (un-coded) boat with wife as crew, as that was the way we planned to sail on the charter

 

[ylop]

dunedin - are those imperal percentages (hence not making 100!)

In essence the entire Yachtmaster training and examining system is built around skill sets A & B, and largely ignores C entirely.
Yet, from what I observe (which probably varies by location and time of year), at least a third, perhaps 40% of boats in NW Scotland are voyaging solo. And perhaps two thirds to 80% are couples or similarly "short handed". The exceptions are often the charter and trip boats - and the sailing schools!

Why does everyone assume that "couples" are not "crew"? If more couples sailed the boat as a team rather than typically husband barking orders both parties would actually have more fun. Day Skipper was an eye opener for me after 20+ yrs of being on boats. No longer was I trying to do everything, I was just conducting the orchestra. It made sailing more relaxed for everyone.

 

[Adios]

I guess the MOB bit could be tricky to do solo .

throw the examiner in

I am sure all the YM Instructors & Examiners on here will object and say that the fully crewed training and examining is the most important, and easier to adapt from fully crewed to solo voyaging. But I am not convinced the latter is in fact the case.

Now as it seems at least one school is offering to assess for yachtmaster sans crew I wonder how many would have the balls to turn up for a yachtmaster exam on their own? "Where's your crew??" says examiner, "My pronouns are they/them."

 

[Kukri]

The late Ian Wright who was a regular here owned a Vertue which he had built at the IBBTC Lowestoft and which he usually single handed.

He asked Tom Cunliffe to examine him for his YM Offshore certificate and Tom joined him for a sail on « Patience ». Since both of them were quite large men there was no room for a crew and Ian accordingly single handed with Tom assessing him.

He passed.

 

[lustyd]

Does the RYA have a duty to accommodate?

I didn't say they did, I was simply pointing out that for those with some forms of Autism, sailing with others is extremely stressful to the point they wouldn't pass the YM exam. I don't expect the RYA to accomodate this, but that doesn't change my point

 

[lustyd]

"Where's your crew??" says examiner, "My pronouns are they/them."

Your and they are compatible pronouns, both gender neutral.

 

[mm42]

There is the other issue that the RYA have worked hard to make the YM a world recognised qualification, recognised commercially. Would they want to risk watering down that reputation with a "I don't like talking to people Yachtmaster"?