Would you do a yachtmaster practical if you didn't need the crew component?

[Adios]

Many people sail small boats single handed (occasionally with a passenger or 2) and have done for decades safely, building up their skills and knowledge. They don't need a yachtmaster certificate but it might be a nice to have. Might help with insurance or chartering abroad. Or to satisfy yourself that you've not missed out anything vital in the years of self directed learning. Or because the guy on the neighbouring boat keeps mentioning his and you don't want to feel inferior any longer. Just for whatever personal satisfaction reason.

The yachtmaster coastal exam requires just 30 days on a boat, 800 miles covered, only 2 of them need to be as the skipper and only 12 hours at night. Surely that's most people with their own boat after a couple of years. The offshore exam is 2,500 miles (a summer trip to the Baltic and back covers that) 5 passages over 60 miles, just 2 night sails, just five days experience as skipper. Nearly everyone with their own boat could sit one or the other.

But if you don't typically sail with crew and aren't interested in starting, that disqualifies you from the practical. [edit: actually no it doesn't but is generally assumed to] From another thread this was the advice for how to pass the YM

1. “Give your crew clear, concise instructions using sailing language, practise ‘command and control.’ Tell your crew members what you would like them to do, give them time and space to do it, and then respectfully check they have completed the task.” There is no point in rushing the crew and adding stress to the exam, there is nothing wrong with taking a little time and having some finesse to your manoeuvre.”

1. “Teamwork: collaborating with your crew to make sure you are all in best form and working towards a common goal, if you help the other candidates, they will help you when it is your turn to be the skipper. An examiner will soon spot a candidate who is trying to make himself or herself look better to the detriment of other sailors.”

After decades of doing everything yourself you can be forgiven for wondering why you need crew. You can use your own boat for the practical but you'll need to invite people on specifically to get in your way and then still have to check everything they've done. What the faff! But if you could take the examiner out on your boat for the day and just prove you have mastered your yacht and yachting would you do it?

 

[Greemble]

Maybe suggest to the RYA they have a solo version?
Solo Coastal
Solo Ocean
I'm sure they'd be happy to add another exam for certifying people to go sailing

 

[Adios]

Maybe suggest to the RYA they have a solo version?
Solo Coastal
Solo Ocean
I'm sure they'd be happy to add another exam for certifying people to go sailing

Not sure if they need to make a different one. If the person can handle everything by themselves having some help should be easy for them to adjust to if they start having some crew. They might not make full utility of the help available but looking at the prerequisites for the course (only 2 days as skipper) it looks like its mid level certification not an end point. If they develop delegation skills later great. If not they probably aren't in a position where it will embarrass the RYA (if they are solo still) or be unsafe as they weren't relying on the crew anyway. So why deny them the normal certificate?

I've never had a problem when I've had people on board but then I've never over thought it like its a teambuilding exercise for middle managers. Just a day out and when there's time "Thats a sheet, no i don't know why, pull it in a bit" etc. Easy. If they come more they'll learn more and do more. But this sentence: "Teamwork: collaborating with your crew to make sure you are all in best form and working towards a common goal, " seems a little OTT for a few people doing a tack or reefing a sail. That sort of language is off putting to people who aren't in the corporate world. Could make people think YM is for a completely different form of yachting to what they do. Not sure if the people who ticked No would never have bothered doing it or have been so put off YM they're beyond wanting to even if the rules were changed.

 

[Wansworth]

Having a crew adds a serious complete layer of responsibility in my limited time on rusty old coasters the skippers who knew their job kept their own council and only relayed what was required normally to the mate who directed the crew.In time of danger in bad weather or fog it was good to have implicit faith in the skipper and act on their instructions.Even on a cruise with friends you can only have one skipper and he must take responsibility for the whole endevour,learning to be a skipper takes time and training

 

[Greemble]

So why deny them the normal certificate?

Because:

"Teamwork: collaborating with your crew to make sure you are all in best form and working towards a common goal, "

Granted, the wording is somewhat 'Management Speak' and could be written better, but for the YM exam, crew management is part of the curriculum.

I wouldn't necessarily say the solo would be a 'lesser' qualification, as the crew part could have some other criteria added instead. However, the solo could not be used for commercial endorsement.

This has been covered in the other thread, I notice. I read that after replying here.

 

[Greemble]

Having a crew adds a serious complete layer of responsibility... learning to be a skipper takes time and training

I have to agree.
Managing a crew is not so easy, especially when the sailing is getting more 'stressful'.

I have found that getting another person to do what you want, when you want them to do so is often a lot harder than just doing it yourself.

 

[LittleSister]

I think you are not approaching this in the best way possible. You can sail, and are doing it just for the 'nice to have' certificate, and 'to satisfy yourself that you've not missed out anything vital'.

I do not think that reflects an appreciation of all you can get out of doing the relevant training and examination.

I have sailed mainly single handed, or with one other crew member (and sometimes then effectively single-handed),and had already sailed extensively and some long distances when I did a Coastal Skipper course with one other Coastal Skipper candidate and two Yachtmaster candidates who were doing the course as prep prior to their immediately following exam.

I got so much out of it (and had lots of fun doing it, despite it being depths of winter and not in a glamorous location). I can't remember there being anything 'vital' that I hadn't done before, but I learnt so many new-to-me ways and variations of doing things I already knew one or two ways of doing. This hugely increased my confidence and my ability to handle complicated situations, and gave me a whole new armoury for tackling normal sailing tasks/challenges, according to the particular context and when 'things go wrong'.

Many of these I learnt not (only) from the course tutor, but from my fellow candidates, who were all experienced sailors, but each from very different backgrounds (one had done a circumnavigation and much more, but he even he was learning new things). One of the best aspects of the course was sharing and compare our different techniques, approaches and preferences (and successes and failures in different exercises).

The management and direction of crew was largely new to me (and I remain weak in this area, partly due to lack of practice and partly from my not being much of a 'people person'), but I found getting to grips with it interesting, challenging and fulfilling. I think that the lessons and experience I gained in that area have certainly improved my performance as occasional skipper of crewed boats, and as a crew member in boats others are skippering (not least in better appreciating their role and challenges). Strangely, perhaps, I feel it has improved, in ways I find hard to define, my single-handing.

As it happens, I think it also definitely improved my performance as a manager in my working life - I often 'review' the work team situation imagining it were a boat on a passage, and vice versa.

So, I'd say seize the opportunity to do your Yachtmaster's, and approach both it, and the need for experience and reflection on the challenge of managing a crew, in a more open-minded, less instrumental way.

I certainly disagree with any need for a 'single-handed' option for RYA course/examination. It's testing whether you can handle any normal yacht in any normal situation. Having a crew is a normal situation.

What next, a Yachtmaster option that the crew is your mate Billy that you've always sailed with, who knows his onions and the pair of you have a routine and division of labour that has evolved over decades?

To pick up on the comments a couple of others, if you sail mostly single-handed switching out of that mode is definitely a big challenge. An inability to delegate, or resistance to doing so, is typical - nothing to be ashamed of, but definitely something to be nipped in the bud and worked at. Failure to switch out of that single-handed mode will certainly not make for a happy crew or an efficient ship. (Don't ask me how I know that! )

p.s. I have ticked the fourth option in the poll as the nearest fit, but I definitely disagree 'it's not much to add'. You are underestimating its importance and value. It is fundamental to passing the Yachtmaster exam, there's more to it than meets the eye, and if you skipper crews you will (or should) never stop learning how to do it!

 

[Adios]

I wouldn't necessarily say the solo would be a 'lesser' qualification, as the crew part could have some other criteria added instead. However, the solo could not be used for commercial endorsement.

This has been covered in the other thread, I notice. I read that after replying here.

The reason for this thread was that it was suggested that no one would want a YM unless they wanted it for commercial use. A poll seemed worth doing as i am sure there are people who would do a practical to test their "mastering of yachting" and are held back by the image of a crew of strangers requiring a rugger team captain directing his chaps around a large boat, while what is there even to do for this crew on his small yacht? The emphasis on it seems out of proportion so he's put off

 

[Adios]

Having a crew adds a serious complete layer of responsibility in my limited time on rusty old coasters the skippers who knew their job kept their own council and only relayed what was required normally to the mate who directed the crew.In time of danger in bad weather or fog it was good to have implicit faith in the skipper and act on their instructions.Even on a cruise with friends you can only have one skipper and he must take responsibility for the whole endevour,learning to be a skipper takes time and training

The implicit faith in the skipper no doubt comes from his years of experience of seafaring not his people management skills. The crew instinctively know when someone is worth deferring to.

The YM course requires only 2 or 5 days prior experience as skipper so it can't be that it tests if you are already the wizened seadog you are portraying.

I dare say few solo sailors do offshore passages so perhaps allowing crewless examination just for YM Coastal would cater for nearly all the solo sailors that might be interested in being assessed. There is no commercial endorsement for that which removes that point. [edit: turns out there can be but not automictic so can be excluded] Nothing would need to be changed other than the RYA allowing assessment of solo sailors for that certification.

However having the techniques and considerations for solo sailing added to the curriculum could be useful for those who have always relied on help. As it is there seems to be an RYA assumption that crew is the norm when as we all know crew is usually at work or a doing DIY when we want them so we sail alone or not at all.

 

[LittleSister]

i am sure there are people who would do a practical to test their "mastering of yachting" and are held back by the image of a crew of strangers requiring a rugger team captain directing his chaps around the boat. What is there even to do for this crew on his small yacht? The emphasis on it seems out of proportion.

That image of a crew is yours alone!

I think it is you who has the emphasis out of proportion.

The implicit faith in the skipper no doubt comes from his years of experience of seafaring not his people management skills.

How wrong you are!

There are many people who have many years of seafaring experience and are poor skippers, and vice versa.


Do the course. It'll be fun, valuable, and not least will take the blinkers off your eyes!

 

[Wansworth]

One skipper I referred to was indeed an old sea dog but the twitchers were in their early thirties

 

[ylop]

The implicit faith in the skipper no doubt comes from his years of experience of seafaring not his people management skills. The crew instinctively know when someone is worth deferring to.

herein lies your problem, you believe that your sailing skill trumps your team work weakness - that’s a source of many people failing YM courses and the point of the opening post on the previous thread! You’ve read that, thought it’s stupid and RYA should change the syllabus to suit your style rather than you change your style to suit the course (if you want the certificate).

just for YM Coastal

would cater for nearly all the solo sailors that might be interested in being assessed. There is no commercial endorsement for that which removes that point.

you can commercially endorse a YM Coastal. It requires you to make long passage overnight which the RYA (rightly in my opinion) considers is something which candidates cannot safely execute alone. Who is maintaining a proper lookout (at all times) when you go to the head or put the kettle on?

As it is there seems to be an RYA assumption that crew is the norm when as we all know crew is usually at work or a doing DIY when we want them so we sail alone or not at all.

lots of people sail with crew. If you are struggling to find or retain crew, is the problem with your crew management skills?

 

[lustyd]

Not sure if they need to make a different one. If the person can handle everything by themselves having some help should be easy for them to adjust to

There are many reasons crew can be hard. One of which is ASD. People on the spectrum can find other people stressful and this can lead to more issues than sailing solo. Allowing people with such disabilities to be included in the sport and qualifications would only be a bonus in my opinion, especially given a lot of people on the spectrum are overachievers and are drawn to sports like sailing.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There isn’t a box for me to tick. YM of 30 years standing, not for commercial reasons. Never really sailed (apart from racing) a ‘fully crewed’ boat, and the race boats have not been mine, I’ve had essentially a crew role, even if that’s been helm, tactics or nav. I have done every single cruising trip apart from the course and exam with my family, and more recently just my wife. Is that unusual? I didn’t think so. Is YM any use to me? I learned a lot through the process, and probably am still using much of that.

 

[Adios]

There are many reasons crew can be hard. One of which is ASD. People on the spectrum can find other people stressful and this can lead to more issues than sailing solo. Allowing people with such disabilities to be included in the sport and qualifications would only be a bonus in my opinion, especially given a lot of people on the spectrum are overachievers and are drawn to sports like sailing.

Not sure it needs to be a diagnosed condition, a lot of people aren't people people and sailing is a natural escapist activity so it would attract more than its fair share. On other threads someone said they did the course but hated the social element as they weren't a clubbable person. Others claimed not to know what they meant which just seems deliberately ignorant. Surely they know not everyone is socially confident, not necessarily to the extent that they'll be wrecked by the situation but just that they are put off by it and therefore wont do the course. It seems ridiculous when so many people sail alone that there is nothing in the RYA to cater for them and ridiculous that other posters here are bordering on "well they can't be skippers then so why on earth should the RYA cater to them!!"

Just to clarify for a few others I'm personally interested in doing more with rya method trained crew (rather than random mates) and not put off by it, if I could be bothered I could search back and find old posts where I've been saying that, but I'm trying to see things from other peoples point of view which is a skill some of you could work on.

 

[Adios]

you can commercially endorse a YM Coastal. It requires you to make long passage overnight which the RYA (rightly in my opinion) considers is something which candidates cannot safely execute alone.

So the standard YM Coastal doesn't have a automatic commercial endorsement (I didn't find any mention of it online) but you can do an add on? In which case whats wrong with the RYA offering the standard YM coastal to people on their own boats sailing as they usually do? Specific question please keep the answer specific. What harm can it possibly do to the RYA or the world in general for them to offer that?

 

[ylop]

On other threads someone said they did the course but hated the social element as they weren't a clubbable person.

i 100% get the sentiment (I don’t really know what clubbable means - but I got the gist). I don’t mind most other people but some people would test my patience being trapped in a fibreglass bubble with them for a week - my experience is yacht clubs contain a disproportionate number of those people! My wife hates new social encounters and would spend the weeks before a YM course stressing about the possibility that she wouldn’t fit in/wouldn’t get on/etc to the extent she probably wouldn’t go on the course.

if looking to do YM exam on your own boat though, you can largely overcome those issues by you picking the crew. They can even be your family members that you would normally sail with (although I suspect that might be a bad choice for demonstrating to the examiner things you just know and maybe even crew harmony!).

 

[lustyd]

Not sure it needs to be a diagnosed condition,

I agree, I was just pointing out that there are diagnosed conditions which would make this necessary for inclusivity. For some it's a personal preference and desire to have a different skillset, others don't have a choice. Both are equally good reasons this should be a thing.

 

[Adios]

Athomson said:
i am sure there are people who would do a practical to test their "mastering of yachting" and are held back by the image of a crew of strangers requiring a rugger team captain directing his chaps around the boat. What is there even to do for this crew on his small yacht? The emphasis on it seems out of proportion.

That image of a crew is yours alone!

I think it is you who has the emphasis out of proportion.

I used to sail with a friend who had a boat in Gosport marina. Lots of boats coming out of there with what looked like a university team on board all in matching foulies, i'm not shy or put off overly by it as i say but still it was looking nothing like my usual day of cruising sailing. But I imagine the shyer people with modest boats in mud berths and modest gear thinking the same. Then this is what the RYA chose to portray as normal sailing so don't tell me I'm imagining it:



Fair enough! But still I'm not sure its the majority look and still why can't they cater for the solo sailors who after the course will again be solo sailing. Doesn't seem much to ask

 

[lustyd]

Doesn't seem much to ask

On a thread which attracts more than its share of interested parties there are less than a quarter saying they'd do such a course, and of those some probably would do the existing syllabus but just wanted to make the point they would prefer the solo option. For the RYA that's not a huge incentive to train up instructors and examiners on a new syllabus, get it approved, marketed etc. for the small percentage of people who could afford to pay for a coded boat (don't forget, this is commercial so they have no choice) and an instructor for the day to take the exam, or pay for the prep week alone. For instructors this would mean occasionally standing and watching boats get damaged as people find they don't have the skills to solo berth a yacht, and the reputational issues that would ensue.
I would very much like to see such a course, but there are certainly practical and business blockers to the RYA doing anything about it.