Would you do a yachtmaster practical if you didn't need the crew component?

[Adios]

I cannot see what possible benefit there would be in gaining a "YM(single-handed)". It might even be seen as proof of inability to cope with other humans well enough to get a proper qualification. Whereas the present YM indicates an ability to interface with a crew and keep them safe - though like a car MOT it only really applies to the day of test.

I'm not suggesting it needs to be YM(anything) just a YM. I think I got the wording right in the end "holding ones methods up to scrutiny". That's the point for a person who is legally and in every other way able to sail without a YM wanting to go and get one. And ones methods are the methods one actually uses so if they sail single handed then that is what should be assessed. And don't you agree it would be a positive thing if more people did that?

I don't agree that the ability to interface with a crew is high on the list when people think what a YM indicates. Its called a yacht master not a crew master. Maybe its assumed somewhere down the list. An examiner could always ask a few questions about passenger/crew safety during the examination. It seems like splitting hairs in that direction as he won't be reliant on crew so some lack in delegation won't be the end of the world, but looking at it the other way is it safe for someone who is not practiced single handed to do a YM assessed with competent crew then take his no nothing mates out on a jolly, where he is then in reality single handed plus passengers in the way? In that common scenario its probably safer to be on the boat of a skipper who has been assessed managing with no crew.

 

[ylop]

seriously whats your problem,

I don't have a problem. You however might find that if you talk to people like that in real life you don't meet the examiner's view of "Responsibilities of Skipper: Standards of behaviour and courtesy" that they are expecting.

No one in the other thread thought it was possible even the (2) examiners on here.

but your only evidence it IS possible comes from a phone call to someone at a training school? and someone saying someone they knew did that a white ago - or did you follow up direct with the RYA as suggested?

But I'm glad to have highlighted the possibility for people who might want to take it forward. I keep saying thats not me, happy to do with crew, but you can't hear me as usual.

so why have you created a whole thread about it and are arguing so vigorously that the RYA are excluding people if you are quite happy with the "standard" option?

It would be an achievement to pass single handed and as I typically have single handed including over nights and triple digit voyages

maybe - although if sailing crewed is outside your comfort zone its possibly more of an achievement to pass despite having to deal with that bit of the course. I actually think the "argument" here is because you think sailing single handed requires some extra skill (I accept it requires some extra techniques) but you think sailing with a crew is easier. The point everyone has been trying to make - and that the article in the opening post on the other thread was making is that sailing with a crew IS an extra skill, it is one that is expected of a Yachtmaster and it is an area that YM candidates are often ill prepared for. The advice was good - expect to be measured on this, prepare for it and if it is outside your comfort zone work of it just the same as you would if wind awareness or knotwork or chartwork were your weak points.

I probably should do it single handed to hold my methods up to scrutiny.

That is a fair point, and the advice for candidates seems to be to use the method that works best for YOU unless an instructor advises against that method (i.e. that method is considered dangerous and so will likely get you failed).

I'm not suggesting it needs to be YM(anything) just a YM.

but all YM's are YM(something) - YM(Coastal), YM(Offshore), YM(Ocean). If you want one of the existing YM qualifications, do it the existing way (which for coastal may not require a crew if you can convince the examiner). If you want a YM qualification that doesn't involve the crew bit - it would need to be a new qualification. You've convinced yourself of this:

I don't agree that the ability to interface with a crew is high on the list when people think what a YM indicates. Its called a yacht master not a crew master.

but that's the issue at point - the RYA don't agree (probably in collaboration with the MCA) and frankly neither do I (or many other people, some with and some with out YM's). Managing a crew IS a vital bit of the YM qualification. You want to convince charter Co's or Insurers that you are a competent skipper - they want to know you can manage any crew too. In my view it is exactly what makes a YM a YM rather than a boat handling qualification.

is it safe for someone who is not practiced single handed to do a YM assessed with competent crew then take his no nothing mates out on a jolly, where he is then in reality single handed plus passengers in the way? In that common scenario its probably safer to be on the boat of a skipper who has been assessed managing with no crew.

I don't think you actually understand what managing the crew means. It means understanding their competence, communicating what you want them to do (including explaining or showing them), doing it and checking its all going to plan. It means spotting when the situation is getting too bad for the current crew's skills/experience/comfort level. If you turn up for the exam with 3 YM Instructors as your crew - expect the examiner to probe how you would cope with less able crew (but you will get to show off your people management skills as you sort out the argument between them on which way to tie on a fender / mooring line is the best one!). It does not mean that the crew do everything for you.

I also think you are probably wrong to believe that at no point during a YM exam will you be asked to show how you handle the boat without crew. Certainly if you have one crew member on board you would expect that during the MOB exercise they would be asked to sit quietly out the way since they are supposed to be bobbing about in the sea.

 

[Adios]

I don't have a problem. You however might find that if you talk to people like that in real life you don't meet the examiner's view of "Responsibilities of Skipper: Standards of behaviour and courtesy" that they are expecting.

but your only evidence it IS possible comes from a phone call to someone at a training school? and someone saying someone they knew did that a white ago - or did you follow up direct with the RYA as suggested?

so why have you created a whole thread about it and are arguing so vigorously that the RYA are excluding people if you are quite happy with the "standard" option?

maybe - although if sailing crewed is outside your comfort zone its possibly more of an achievement to pass despite having to deal with that bit of the course. I actually think the "argument" here is because you think sailing single handed requires some extra skill (I accept it requires some extra techniques) but you think sailing with a crew is easier. The point everyone has been trying to make - and that the article in the opening post on the other thread was making is that sailing with a crew IS an extra skill, it is one that is expected of a Yachtmaster and it is an area that YM candidates are often ill prepared for. The advice was good - expect to be measured on this, prepare for it and if it is outside your comfort zone work of it just the same as you would if wind awareness or knotwork or chartwork were your weak points.

That is a fair point, and the advice for candidates seems to be to use the method that works best for YOU unless an instructor advises against that method (i.e. that method is considered dangerous and so will likely get you failed).

but all YM's are YM(something) - YM(Coastal), YM(Offshore), YM(Ocean). If you want one of the existing YM qualifications, do it the existing way (which for coastal may not require a crew if you can convince the examiner). If you want a YM qualification that doesn't involve the crew bit - it would need to be a new qualification. You've convinced yourself of this:


but that's the issue at point - the RYA don't agree (probably in collaboration with the MCA) and frankly neither do I (or many other people, some with and some with out YM's). Managing a crew IS a vital bit of the YM qualification. You want to convince charter Co's or Insurers that you are a competent skipper - they want to know you can manage any crew too. In my view it is exactly what makes a YM a YM rather than a boat handling qualification.

I don't think you actually understand what managing the crew means. It means understanding their competence, communicating what you want them to do (including explaining or showing them), doing it and checking its all going to plan. It means spotting when the situation is getting too bad for the current crew's skills/experience/comfort level. If you turn up for the exam with 3 YM Instructors as your crew - expect the examiner to probe how you would cope with less able crew (but you will get to show off your people management skills as you sort out the argument between them on which way to tie on a fender / mooring line is the best one!). It does not mean that the crew do everything for you.

I also think you are probably wrong to believe that at no point during a YM exam will you be asked to show how you handle the boat without crew. Certainly if you have one crew member on board you would expect that during the MOB exercise they would be asked to sit quietly out the way since they are supposed to be bobbing about in the sea.

seriously, i didn't make it half way to the end

if i was your skipper i'd put you in the dinghy and tow you 100m behind where i couldn't hear you

 

[awol]

I'm not suggesting it needs to be YM(anything) just a YM. I think I got the wording right in the end "holding ones methods up to scrutiny". That's the point for a person who is legally and in every other way able to sail without a YM wanting to go and get one.

But that is not the point of the YM. It is not a course completion certificate for wannabe sailors, it is a Certificate of Competence backed by the UK Government which licences the bearer to carry out certain commercial activities when married with other qualifying certificates including, incidently, a medical certificate indicating a degree of pfysical and mental health. That it is used by some, including me, as an indicator of ability is incidental.

 

[Adios]

But that is not the point of the YM. It is not a course completion certificate for wannabe sailors, it is a Certificate of Competence backed by the UK Government which licences the bearer to carry out certain commercial activities when married with other qualifying certificates including, incidently, a medical certificate indicating a degree of pfysical and mental health. That it is used by some, including me, as an indicator of ability is incidental.

Thats your message is it? Unless you want to use it commercially YM coastal is not for you you wannabe amateur weekend sailing fool! Primarily RYA is a commercial shipping training institution. Ok didn't know that.

 

[awol]

Thats your message is it? Unless you want to use it commercially YM coastal is not for you you wannabe amateur weekend sailing fool! Primarily RYA is a commercial shipping training institution. Ok didn't know that.

Oh, dear me - if that is your normal level of comprehension of what is said/written I can understand why single-handing concerns you so much

 

[Adios]

Oh, dear me - if that is your normal level of comprehension of what is said/written I can understand why single-handing concerns you so much

very droll. But you're right I just can't quite get your perspective that no amount of years being capable of single handing boats at sea is worthy, but if you have a couple of people on board to help you and have 2 days experience as skipper... that makes all the difference and now you can have that commercial ticket. No need to reply.

 

[Sandy]

The late Ian Wright who was a regular here owned a Vertue which he had built at the IBBTC Lowestoft and which he usually single handed.

He asked Tom Cunliffe to examine him for his YM Offshore certificate and Tom joined him for a sail on « Patience ». Since both of them were quite large men there was no room for a crew and Ian accordingly single handed with Tom assessing him.

He passed.

Can you just invite an examiner onboard these days?

 

[awol]

very droll. But you're right I just can't quite get your perspective that no amount of years being capable of single handing boats at sea is worthy, but if you have a couple of people on board to help you and have 2 days experience as skipper... that makes all the difference and now you can have that commercial ticket. No need to reply.

Try reading what is written more slowly. Nowhere have I suggested that single-handed ability and experience is not "worthy", neither have I endorsed the requirements that satisfy the MCA and other national bodies for commercial activity. Perhaps there is cross-purposes here - there is a practical Coastal Skipper course which leads to a course completion certificate which reduces the mileage/duration requirement neede for YM(Coastal). Is it that the course your school was happy to arrange for you?

 

[Adios]

I've been wondering why the weird resistance to something so clearly a non-issue and the best I can come up with is I'm daring to suggest a way to make the YM club less exclusive. Its weird. Off putting. But lets not allow some people on a forum colour the RYA which seems to be more broad and inclusive than they realise.

 

[Adios]

Can you just invite an examiner onboard these days?

I spoke to a school at random and they were quite happy to come aboard and assess for either an ICC or YM coastal certification without crew if preferred. Actually not quite at random, not all make it clear on their websites that they offered stand alone assessments, most were pushing training primarily which makes economic sense. So if you want someone on your boat just to assess, maybe look for one that gives prices for that on the website.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I've been wondering why the weird resistance to something so clearly a non-issue and the best I can come up with is I'm daring to suggest a way to make the YM club less exclusive. Its weird. Off putting. But lets not allow some people on a forum colour the RYA which seems to be more broad and inclusive than they realise.

Most of us, even those who don’t normally sail with a small army on board, just do as asked. That’s the qualification, and that’s how you get it. It’s exactly the same as any other. Try asking a maths teacher if you can have a GCSE anyway, but not be examined on trigonometry.

 

[laika]

Just for completeness because it’s generally a feature of these threads…would there be a minimum and maximum LOA for boats on which you could be examined for yachtmaster (solo)?

 

[awol]

I spoke to a school at random and they were quite happy to come aboard and assess for either an ICC or YM coastal certification without crew if preferred. Actually not quite at random, not all make it clear on their websites that they offered stand alone assessments, most were pushing training primarily which makes economic sense. So if you want someone on your boat just to assess, maybe look for one that gives prices for that on the website.

Of course they are happy to take your money and assess your capabilities. For the right amount of money I and many others would be happy to assess your prowess but none of us, not even the school, could award you a YM.

 

[Adios]

Of course they are happy to take your money and assess your capabilities. For the right amount of money I and many others would be happy to assess your prowess but none of us, not even the school, could award you a YM.

Hold on are you an examiner as well? I see capnsensible agreeing to everything anti this idea. Might be worth declaring conflicts of interest. I can understand a reluctance to miss out on the income from weeks of training with heavily crewed boats, the system has been set up with levels like that progressing though paid programs for the crew while day skippers and then the YMs are being trained and assessed on the same boats. THATS why you can't do away with the crew requirement isn't it. THATS why everyone has been convinced that the crew element is essential, why the over emphasis, how it got into the current zeitgeist where before it wasn't. It makes the economic model work. Ah well that would account for most of the resistance I guess, why so many feel it is imperative. But I don't think its under threat from a few people wanting an assessment solo, they probably wouldn't have been a customer in any other fashion otherwise.

*before the accusation will be used to divert from the point: I think it makes sense to start training with the RYA system, starting to learn bits as crew, then skippering on a small scale, gradually increasing. I'm 100% saying thats great. But for people who did it differently lets keep it flexible. Thats all.

 

[awol]

Hold on are you an examiner as well?

Ah, you've caught me. I'm part of a RYA sponsored conspiracy to keep school incomes as high as possible and stop single-handed sailors from collecting pieces of paper without filling the boats with extra paying punters. Or just maybe I'm trying to explain your difficulties. Your choice!

 

[Adios]

Ah, you've caught me. I'm part of a RYA sponsored conspiracy to keep school incomes as high as possible and stop single-handed sailors from collecting pieces of paper without filling the boats with extra paying punters. Or just maybe I'm trying to explain your difficulties. Your choice!

no you're nothing i know. But I'm so glad I got to the bottom of why the strong resistance to something so insignificant. Economic forces caused cultural shift, as it so often does and I found myself pushing against the culture. And its not the RYA they get little out of it, but the model suits the schools and that's great, its a good system, very neat conveyor belt up the grades enabling the school boats to run economically. But lets just be awake to the reason why crews are now deemed so essential when we all know they are not actually needed to sail small boats, more a nice to have.

 

[ylop]

Hold on are you an examiner as well? I see capnsensible agreeing to everything anti this idea. Might be worth declaring conflicts of interest. I can understand a reluctance to miss out on the income from weeks of training with heavily crewed boats, the system has been set up with levels like that progressing though paid programs for the crew while day skippers and then the YMs are being trained and assessed on the same boats. THATS why you can't do away with the crew requirement isn't it. THATS why everyone has been convinced that the crew element is essential, why the over emphasis, how it got into the current zeitgeist where before it wasn't. It makes the economic model work. Ah well that would account for most of the resistance I guess, why so many feel it is imperative. But I don't think its under threat from a few people wanting an assessment solo, they probably wouldn't have been a customer in any other fashion otherwise.

Your conspiracy theory has a fundamental flaw. For the current YM exam arrangements (rather than prep course) there is no extra revenue to the RYA for the crew you bring along. If it were all about the £ they didn’t design the rules very well. However I think we did point out to you the ecconomic problem of singlehanded YM courses (rather than exams) several pages ago (or on the other thread). That’s not a problem for the school it’s a problem for the candidate - guess who will be paying the “single supplement”.

 

[Skylark]

For anyone with a genuine interest in the establishment and development of safety at sea this web page is a worthy read.

The United Nations through its International Maritime Organisation cascades this responsibility via national government agencies, in our case the Martime and Coastguard Agency, MCA.

Noting that a YM Cert of Comptetence is issued by RYA on behalf of the MCA.

There are regular reviews between these two organisations to ensure that the syllabus is up to date and appropriate to needs.

I’m afraid that RYA does not have the power to create “the exclusive club” that many fear.

(I’m a YMI and welcome open-minded dialogue that may or may not lead to improved safety while deriving more pleasure and a sense of achievement out of our chosen recreational activity. Just concerned about the lack of context expressed by some)

Brief History of IMO

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That being the case, the other point about a solo YM qualification is that single handing offshore is generally frowned upon as risky. Keeping a lookout being the main issue of course. Absolutely nothing unsafe about a passage you can stay awake for, day or night, in my book. But theres surely some conflict between single handing and other parts of the YM course, not just managing a crew or not.