Why have the Big 3 abandoned the "ordinary" man

[greenace]

You seem upset that they don't cater for you and the mainstream buyer, who cares , there is so much boring talk on here about the " big 3" why don't people put there energy into looking at the many other brands out there that do cater for the mainstream, so much talk and conjecture about the big 3 and their financial status , YAWN

Because it's not simply about the boats, is it?

These were (are) brands that we could be proud of. They mean something to a huge number of UK boaters. Their fortunes or otherwise matter beyond the products they make and affect a huge number people, many of whom we have a personal connection with. Their financial status has an impact on local and national economies and many would be very sad to see them disappear altogether.

Fairline going under, for example, is a big deal to all the people who build, sell, test, and maintain their products. I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure those who've recently been made redundant wouldn't describe their past months and their uncertain future as 'boring'.

 

[paul salliss]

Because it's not simply about the boats, is it?

These were (are) brands that we could be proud of. They mean something to a huge number of UK boaters. Their fortunes or otherwise matter beyond the products they make and affect a huge number people, many of whom we have a personal connection with. Their financial status has an impact on local and national economies and many would be very sad to see them disappear altogether.

Fairline going under, for example, is a big deal to all the people who build, sell, test, and maintain their products. I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure those who've recently been made redundant wouldn't describe their past months and their uncertain future as 'boring'.

,

Please read the OP it was all about the argument of why don't they build a smaller range for the common man so the normal chap can move up within the range over time and all I am saying is that there are other brands out there and a lot of choice and constant talk about what the big 3 are doing is dull, markets and brands evolve, I have already posted on here re my complete sympathy for people losing jobs etc etc, of course that is plain horrid but the OP was not about that,

 

[rafiki_]

But as above, the likes of Bennetau, Jeanneau, etc seem to be making smaller boats profitably, and more importantly, they are selling a lot of them.

The Chinese market is slowing considerably, and it strikes me that this entry point of 40' / £300k is mad - you either target the really rich and build superyachts, or you have a range of boats starting where normal people can "buy in".

The car manufacturers are seeing this - BMW, Audi, etc are all going smaller not bigger - offering a premium product, with premium features and premium pricing but at a smaller, more affordable level.

e.g. A1 audi in the same market as a vw polo - 10 years ago their range started at the golf size, and 20 years before that at the A4 / mondeo size.

You can buy a Mercedes A class for not too much more than a Golf - 20 years ago the cheapest merc was a seriously expensive car.

Not sure that this is valid analogy. A current Golf is much larger than an original one , and is twice the weight, so the current Polo/A1 is now bigger than the original Golf. A new Merc A is huge compared to the original 15 or so years ago.

 

[rafiki_]

Well, a £41m loss isn't trivial. 'Strongest' is a relative term here, I think. Sunseeker are gambling their future on a 20% increase in high net worth individuals by 2020. Good luck with that, especially in a slowing global economy.

Begs the question is any volume boat-building business viable? I'll be keeping a close eye on niche builders such as Trusty, English Harbour Yachts etc to see if they fare any better (I hope they do).

Trusty went bump a couple of years ago, and the brand/moulds have been transferred to Hardy in Norfolk.

 

[Cheery]

An adage I learned from a customer several years ago was "better some sales at a low margin than no sales at a high margin".

I used to work as a rep in manufacturing where one of the buyers used the same analogy, "80% of something is better than 100% of eff all". In another company I used to sell to fish and chip shops and one customer in particular complained about loss of business to competitors like Greggs etc. I said he needed to look at his offering. I explained that his price for fish and chips started at £4 (a while ago) so why not do a smaller portion of the same quality for £2.50 or £3. I said if the customer only has £3 in his pocket the easier you make it for him to spend it with you the more chance there is that he will.

Well, that's my 2d FWIW.

 

[greenace]

Please read the OP

Yep, done that. One of the possible answers to his question is that manufacturers have abandoned the common man because there's no money in it. Seeing as how their collective strategy of going after the big bucks looks pretty iffy too, I'd say it's a valid point.

I take your point about markets moving on and so on, and I agree that there are other options. But saying 'I don't care about the big 3, talk about something else it's boring' doesn't answer the OP's question either does it?

 

[paultallett]

I think this is a really interesting thread and very valid. We love boating, we are lucky to have an above average income, our boat is all paid for but we still are careful about our boating budget. We enjoy other hobbies and holidays and there has to be a cost = fun element otherwise SWMBO starts to say how many holidays the moorings /running costs could have bought instead........ and I see her point.

So with all that in mind, I think we represent the 'average man' boater.

The big 2 are hunting the multi millionaires, people selling their businesses on retiring or people coming in to inheritance, that's the way I see the bulk of their market. There will always be people like this out there but the big 2 aren't trying to tempt the likes of me, which is fair enough, I can't afford new, or rather won't go in to debt to fund massive depreciation for a hobby.

This weekend we are heading to the boat show. Talking to my 9 year old son this morning I was asking him if he was looking forward to it? His response........ 'Not really, can't see the point in looking at boats we could never afford'

I have to say....... That's a sad thing to hear from the future of boating and clearly not the message the industry would want to give out. My son goes to a very good school which I work hard to pay for, he has a very promising future a head of him, but even at such a tender age, he sees for himself, to get to the level the big 2 are pitching at, is a dream to most people........ He can dream of Aston's and knows they are easily in reach by comparison........

 

[jrudge]

The big three is a little tedious ... but as the owner of a big three boat ...

The issue to me is to buy a brand I feel someone will want to buy off me. I was bitten ( heavily) with a Cranchi for sale in the UK.

The issue then is that new entrants face resistance from the buyers almost regardless of how good the product is.

As an example Galeon seem to build decent boats at a decent price. ( I don't know galleon it is just and example ). Would I buy one? No - nothing to do with snobery, everything to do with would I be able to sell it on without losing my shirt .... in essence do people look for a fairline ( I perceive yes they do), so people look for a Galeon ( I perceive they don't).

I can't really understand why boats are so expensive, nor can i understand why they don't offer trim levels ( like the old fords - L, GL, Ghia - I am showing my age!).

The argument is it does not cost much more to build a big one but it sell for more. The question is how do you make the small one for less!

 

[halcyon]

Not sure that this is valid analogy. A current Golf is much larger than an original one , and is twice the weight, so the current Polo/A1 is now bigger than the original Golf. A new Merc A is huge compared to the original 15 or so years ago.

That depends on marketing how and where you sell, the Metro was designed to sell against the Polo, but everyone looked at it against the Golf, hence they did not sell. Same with boats you need to define a market, Sealine's small boats were to get Sealine owner who progressively grew through the range.

Never understood why they got rid of dealers, you controlled the whole deal and maximised profit, or had max flexibility in doing a deal. From the customer side they sold good secondhand as they were all refurbished over winter when Kidderminster was quiet.

Brian

 

[BruceK]

I think people are looking at this with blinkers on. i.e. Mobo cruisers. There is absolutely no shortage of sub 20 foot leasure fast fishers and sub 25 foot raggies. When I'm on the water, they make up the vast majority of boats. In a 250 odd member club I am in 10 are mobo. The rest are raggies. Twin engined 30 foot to 40 foot mobos are dear to run and keep. Their market sector is not big, it's actually rather small I’d bet. I’d bet most of those that can scrape enough to buy a new 25 – 30 foot mobo aimed at average Joe at say 50k new actually can’t really afford it, and the majority would not see the sense in loosing that money through depreciation. Sub 30 foot Mobo's for cruising just don't cut it for a standard family unit size either unless its day trips and the odd weekend, but fine for a couple, so most potential buyers are going to be looking at the second hand market. The second hand market is dire but if the manufacturers don’t cater for it, let’s be honest, then their potential market segment shrinks even more. Let's face it, there is no financial sense what so ever in owning mobo. It's an addiction that keeps most of us Joe Public's happy but financially poorer. Whereas a 20 foot and less fast fisher, with rudimentary accommodation and with an outboard on the back, once boat is purchased, is comparatively cheap and easy to maintain. The seriously wealthy and uber rich have money to blow, can take the knock on maintenance and depreciation, and I wouldn't be surprised if they actually represent a greater number of potential buyers even if they are much smaller as a percentage of the populace for the mobo sector. Average Joe likes his affordable fishing and water toys, not haemorrhaging money in depreciation and maintenance in a floating campervan.

 

[doug748]

......................
I can't really understand why boats are so expensive, nor can i understand why they don't offer trim levels ( like the old fords - L, GL, Ghia - I am showing my age!)......

Saily boats have gone down the route of cheaper is better or "have opened up the mass market". So you may well get your wish. My thoughts are that power boats are still seen to some extent objects of desire once the transition to consumable product is made then all things are possible.

Your cheaper boats will tend to be put together like a mobile home in the fitted kitchen style. There are some examples in a nearby thread.
In the case of some current sail boats they are fitted out in Spartan style and offered in an even more stripped out form which boils down to a number of boxes attached to the hull sides.

It does create an attractive bottom line purchase price but the large UK brands are unlikely to want to associated with this market stance - so they are in a cleft stick, I think. If they made a small boat to their standards it would lose even more money, make it cheaply and it would detract from the brand.

 

[julians]

This weekend we are heading to the boat show. Talking to my 9 year old son this morning I was asking him if he was looking forward to it? His response........ 'Not really, can't see the point in looking at boats we could never afford'

your son is dead right.

The magazines perpetuate the myth of a starter boat being £100k+ too. If I had never been on a boat, but was curious I'd start by buying a magazine like YBW, then I'd read it, see them talking about starter boats costing £100k+ and then think stuff that I'm not spending £100k to just get a 'starter' boat.

The reality if of course totally different (for most people) to the image the mags peddle . I got into boating when my dad bought a 3m inflatable with 8hp outboard when I was about 8 or 9 years old, he gradually bought bigger and bigger boats over the last 35 years and now has a 37foot windy. When I started to earn my own money I bought a 4m zodiac with a 50hp outboard, then a brand new 20 foot sea ray, and now a (second hand) 25 foot Windy - not sure I'll be able to afford something much bigger than this, but not sure I want something much bigger, for me at the moment, a 25 foot cuddy does what I want from a boat.

As someone else further up mentioned though, if you look outside the 'big 3' there are loads of brands who are catering for people on a more modest budget. The americans pretty much have the <30foot market sewn up, with manufacturers catering for the budget end right through the the premium end . The 'big 3' can continue to chase the big money, meanwhile the young boater , boaters on a budget, average joes etc will buy from someone else who will cater for their market.

Re Jrudges comment about being burnt with a Cranchi, This is a strangely british thing I think, the average UK buyer seems pretty snobby and seems to think any other manufacturer is inferior to the big 3. Maybe its good patriotism, maybe its little englanders, I dunno, but its a real thing in the UK.

 

[ari]

One of the possible answers to his question is that manufacturers have abandoned the common man because there's no money in it.

Nail, head, hit I'd say. Fairline, Sunseeker and Princess all used to make boats 'for the common man' (although the forum's definition of 'common man' may differ slightly from the average man on the street I suspect! )

Sunseeker used to make a large range below 30 feet, things like the Offshore 28, the Mexico 24 etc. Princess had the 25 back in the seventies, the 266 and 286 Riviera in the eighties, Fairline had the 21 Sprint, 24 Carrera, Sunfury 26 etc etc etc.

But come the eighties, they could never compete with the 'pile 'em high - sell 'em cheap' concept of companies like Bayliner who sold bigger boats for less money via huge mass production economies of scale and build quality. So they retreated upmarket where people were still prepared to pay for quality.

What I find most odd about these 'why don't they sell small cheap boats that I can afford - they've got it all wrong' threads that crop up on a regular basis is that if you go on a car forum you don't see people complaining that Rolls Royce or Ferrari aren't making a car to compete with the VW Golf so they could afford one, or arguing that they should be doing to 'entice' people into the brand. People seem perfectly content to buy a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari if/when they can afford it despite this.

Ironically, of what was the 'big four', the only manufacturer to attempt to continue to cater to the smaller boat market was Sealine, the first to go...

 

[rafiki_]

That depends on marketing how and where you sell, the Metro was designed to sell against the Polo, but everyone looked at it against the Golf, hence they did not sell.

Brian

I worked for BL at the time, but did not know anyone who looked at the Metro as a Golf competitor. The Metro was the contemporary Mini.

Apologies for the Fred Rift.

 

[oldgit]

Could it be that in the distant past boating was considered as a hobby that the slightly better off chap would consider as an enjoyable use of his spare time,the actual type or model of boat was secondary to actually going boating,the retired business man or military chap would have a TSMY and probably not a new one either,the average chap would have a small cabin cruiser possibly a lifeboat conversion of some sort.
There is now a thousand other hobbies to spend money on to and take up decreasing amounts of leisure time.
A visit to B & Q would appear to be quality time spent with your family these days.
Less people are going boating and the market for average joe boats is virtually gone.
The days of family builder keeping going through thick and thin producing a range of sizes has vanished.
Aquiring a business ,any business,and then squeezing every last farthing in order to service the interest on the money borrowed and then promptly moving on is the order of the day like it or not.
Even the retirement market is drying up,better to buy a couple of BTL than a boat.

 

[halcyon]

I worked for BL at the time, but did not know anyone who looked at the Metro as a Golf competitor. The Metro was the contemporary Mini.

Apologies for the Fred Rift.

The ADO74 in 73 was the was the Mini replacement, but Fiesta size, BL could not raise £130 mil so it died, Metro was a smaller follow to the ADO74.

The point was not what the Metro was, but it's perceived place on the market place, if you can sell a small boat in the BMW vane, then a British builder can make a profit. But sell it against a US sports fisher and you will make a loss.

The problem is the UK lack the self beleive in look how good our product is and so fails dismally to convince the customer, so you just go bigger, as time to build is not a lot more than the little one. See previous post, Sealine 210 14 days from hull out of mould to finished boat,360 A 16 day for the same. Which means you can sell a 36 foot for little more cost than a 21 foot, but a lot easier to sell cheap than upmarket as a upmarket BMW product.

Brian

 

[drh2]

I think most US boat builders would disagree !

But isn't there a greater market for small boats to use on lakes in the US? Surely most of the UK market is coastal waters and channel hopping.
There are some very good observations in this thread and perhaps the situation will eventually revive the used boat market, albeit at probably lower/more realistic pricing, as people will look to the 8 to 12 meter range for comfortable boating without having to spend a fortune, (other than the running costs obviously, but then diesel has dropped a fair degree lately

 

[Nigelpickin]

A quick scan around our marina and it would appear that the vast majority of boats are between 20 and 40 feet. what choice is there regarding a uk boat at that size? P39 or SS39 are at the very top of that aggregate.

I think that the uk builders are really paying for their short sighted lack of diversity now which is a shame but it doesn't take a genius to work out that with paywall height at a minimum of 350k for a starter boat you're going to be losing a lot of customers to Ben/Jen et al.

 

[ari]

A quick scan around my local car park reveals mostly old Fords and Vauxhalls, and a smattering of used BMWs and Mercs. Are Ferrari and Aston Martin therefore suffering from a 'short sighted lack of diversity'? The evidence of my local car park would suggest so, just as your local marina does for Sunseeker etc.

 

[IDAMAY]

That depends on marketing how and where you sell, the Metro was designed to sell against the Polo, but everyone looked at it against the Golf, hence they did not sell. Same with boats you need to define a market, Sealine's small boats were to get Sealine owner who progressively grew through the range.

Never understood why they got rid of dealers, you controlled the whole deal and maximised profit, or had max flexibility in doing a deal. From the customer side they sold good secondhand as they were all refurbished over winter when Kidderminster was quiet.

Brian

Quite so Brian. From the mid 80's to 2001, I bought the following new boats from a Sealine dealer:

195
255
290
330 (Sports)
420
420
F42/5

At each stage we looked at the alternatives from Princess and Fairline but we were always offered a part exchange deal we could not refuse. In 2005 we were looking for something a tad larger but could not afford a brand new T50 which was the logical move at the time. Sealine had by then abandoned the market below 30 feet and IIRR their smallest boat would have been around 34 feet, a trend accelerated once Tom left the helm. I think that was the point that Sealine started to decline though nobody can say for certain what would have happened if they had stayed in the 25 to 45 foot market.

At that point we bought a secondhand T47 and our two boats since then have also been secondhand. Unless we win the lottery, we won't be in the market for a new boat in the future.

Richard.