benjenbav
Well-known member
I don't know what BL was trying to do with the Metro but I do know that my first company car was a Metro and my second one was a Golf. I did not regard them as alternatives!
Why have the Big 3 abandoned the "ordinary" man
- Thread starter ontheplane
- Start date
I don't know what BL was trying to do with the Metro but I do know that my first company car was a Metro and my second one was a Golf. I did not regard them as alternatives!
KINGFISHER 8
Well-known member
That's the important bit and they seem to be doing the right thing ... selling to all parts of the market and keeping everything affordable for the sections they're aiming at ... it's what the failures should have figured out.
PCUK
Well-known member
The way I see it is that they are trying to build small superyachts, but at the end of the day they are all coming off the production line like so many up-market Mondeo clones, all being identical apart from small customer queeks while the real superyacht customer wants something unique. There is plenty of demand for identical boats off the production line as evidenced by the Forum ownership but they are pricing themselves out of the market by trying to be what they are not.
jimmy_the_builder
Well-known member
benjenbav
Well-known member
One difficulty with 40-50 foot boats is that they have to compete not just against other boats but against houses.
The target buyer isn't Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk who could buy the things with the small change left over from their small change or even premiership footballers or others who can and might well buy a shiny thing on a whim. It's people who will weigh up the pros and cons. If they are salty seadogs cruising off into the sunset they will buy something with sails. If they are going to use it as a floating apartment they might as well buy...an apartment where they will get twice or three times the amount of space for the same money.
Just try selling the dream of looking out over the sea to someone who doesn't fancy the idea of being seasick in a bathroom where your elbows touch both walls and the merest hint of anything other than special paper will block the bog when they could spend their hard-earned on something with mains drainage, unlimited hot and cold running water and a balcony from which you can see as much of the sea as you would ever want, thank you very much.
The target buyer isn't Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk who could buy the things with the small change left over from their small change or even premiership footballers or others who can and might well buy a shiny thing on a whim. It's people who will weigh up the pros and cons. If they are salty seadogs cruising off into the sunset they will buy something with sails. If they are going to use it as a floating apartment they might as well buy...an apartment where they will get twice or three times the amount of space for the same money.
Just try selling the dream of looking out over the sea to someone who doesn't fancy the idea of being seasick in a bathroom where your elbows touch both walls and the merest hint of anything other than special paper will block the bog when they could spend their hard-earned on something with mains drainage, unlimited hot and cold running water and a balcony from which you can see as much of the sea as you would ever want, thank you very much.
Last edited:
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
And therein lies the issue. If you're building small boats for the common man, that brand image harms you when you go upmarket and try to sell bigger more expensive boats to the less than common man with more dosh in his pocket as Sealine found out. In the same way neither Ford nor Vauxhall are able to sell in the luxury end of the car market because their brand credibility doesn't stretch that farA quick scan around my local car park reveals mostly old Fords and Vauxhalls, and a smattering of used BMWs and Mercs. Are Ferrari and Aston Martin therefore suffering from a 'short sighted lack of diversity'? The evidence of my local car park would suggest so, just as your local marina does for Sunseeker etc.
The only way to get over this problem is to have separate brands as Toyota have with Lexus. The only example of this I can think of in the boating industry is Beneteau and Monte Carlo Yachts and AFAIK it has been very successful for them with MCY boats selling very well despite the Beneteau ownership.
Cheery
Well-known member
A good point well made.
Nigelpickin
Active member
DougH
Well-known member
Does anyone know with certainty (not I've heard etc) what the financial results are for Bavaria, Bennetau and Jeanneau.?
Illusion
Member
I think a key issue is in the 20 to 50ft market when you look to buy again. So you managed to purchase either new or second hand, but then you think it would be nice to go a bit bigger or newer? Take the example you have a 5 year 30ft boat with a value of say £80k. To buy a 35 to 40ft boat either new or 2 years, is not a sensible further % outlay of your current investment anymore.
Move that on to 5 year old 50ft boat with a value of say £250k, you then look at a new or year or two old 55-60ft boat, generally it seems you'd be at the very least doubling or tripling your current outlay!
Even if you could afford it, on top of the increased running costs this is far too much to sensibly justify, then you start thinking what will this £700k boat be worth in 2 years if I want to sell it!
For the market to appeal to more people who like boating and can afford to buy and run a boat (not just the financial elite) something here needs to change.
I would love to see some of the bigger names building back down in the 30ft market and also thinking about the ongoing trade up/cost to change scenario. What would be an acceptable % of current value to justify the logical next move for the average UK boater?
Until this is addressed, I fear the ordinary (boating) man will just be trading between second hand boats for the rest of time.
Move that on to 5 year old 50ft boat with a value of say £250k, you then look at a new or year or two old 55-60ft boat, generally it seems you'd be at the very least doubling or tripling your current outlay!
Even if you could afford it, on top of the increased running costs this is far too much to sensibly justify, then you start thinking what will this £700k boat be worth in 2 years if I want to sell it!
For the market to appeal to more people who like boating and can afford to buy and run a boat (not just the financial elite) something here needs to change.
I would love to see some of the bigger names building back down in the 30ft market and also thinking about the ongoing trade up/cost to change scenario. What would be an acceptable % of current value to justify the logical next move for the average UK boater?
Until this is addressed, I fear the ordinary (boating) man will just be trading between second hand boats for the rest of time.
Last edited:
Nigelpickin
Active member
Ben work very hard to break even, motorboat volume up and on target for a big 2020 apparently.....around 18% volume growth in 2016 I think from memory. I suspect the volume that they are managing now puts them in a very strong position moving forward...
kashurst
Well-known member
Beneteau group results are on their own website.
rbcoomer
Active member
There is another angle that hasn't been mentioned. Old cars tend to die as they get worked hard and in 20-30 years only a small percentage will usually survive - the value reaches a point where cost of upkeep is prohibitive. There are of course exceptions where the value increases again - usually due to rarity or other factors that make it collectable - e.g. DeLorean . Boats, especially GRP boats, tend to survive. In part this is because they are built to resist corrosion (externally at least!), but also because of that 'dream' factor that sees many of us (more deluded fools) buy that project as it only needs a little tlc... (And then throw disproportionate sums of cash and time at it to prove we were right! )
The end result of this is that there is always an ample supply of second hand boats to suit most budgets and thus those 'big three' manufacturers are not only competing against other new boats when targeting entry level buyers, they're also competing with a second hand market. How many people buy a new car as their first set of wheels?
All that said, I agree with the o/p that all chasing the same rich set and abandoning their heritage is a mistake. I also agree that going bigger will see their demise. You can build an entry level offering alongside the top-of-the-range too - Mercedes build some pretty slick motors, but they also make small stuff, buses and trucks. That doesn't hurt their image or impede on their F1 status - you just have to be better at marketing yourself. Branding divisions as Sunseeker* Essential, Sunseeker* Premium (*or similar Princess/Fairline etc) - with higher specs, could actually be used as an aspirational lure to get potential buyers to spend a little more - much like the LX, Ghia analogy earlier! The danger in abandoning the 'entry level' altogether is that people get to like and aspire to something else - so when A.N.Other Boatbuilder launches their 155M offering, that may just be what tomorrow's whizz kids aspire to...
)The end result of this is that there is always an ample supply of second hand boats to suit most budgets and thus those 'big three' manufacturers are not only competing against other new boats when targeting entry level buyers, they're also competing with a second hand market. How many people buy a new car as their first set of wheels?
All that said, I agree with the o/p that all chasing the same rich set and abandoning their heritage is a mistake. I also agree that going bigger will see their demise. You can build an entry level offering alongside the top-of-the-range too - Mercedes build some pretty slick motors, but they also make small stuff, buses and trucks. That doesn't hurt their image or impede on their F1 status - you just have to be better at marketing yourself. Branding divisions as Sunseeker* Essential, Sunseeker* Premium (*or similar Princess/Fairline etc) - with higher specs, could actually be used as an aspirational lure to get potential buyers to spend a little more - much like the LX, Ghia analogy earlier! The danger in abandoning the 'entry level' altogether is that people get to like and aspire to something else - so when A.N.Other Boatbuilder launches their 155M offering, that may just be what tomorrow's whizz kids aspire to...
Last edited:
halcyon
Well-known member
Couple of questions.
Why must we keep buying a larger boat each time we change it ?
In the past 18 foot was a starter boat, to-day 30 foot plus is a starter boat ?.
So has the "ordinary" man abandoned the top 3 rather than the top 3 abandoned the "ordinary" man?
Brian
Why must we keep buying a larger boat each time we change it ?
In the past 18 foot was a starter boat, to-day 30 foot plus is a starter boat ?.
So has the "ordinary" man abandoned the top 3 rather than the top 3 abandoned the "ordinary" man?
Brian
kashurst
Well-known member
Halcyon you have it spot on - I thought the most interesting boat at LIBs this year was the rebuilt marine project 31. I think it was a bit over the top in terms of finish - all that veneer and lacquer was too much. But as a first(ish) boat - lovely. Lovely big cockpit, simple engineering, useful space inside for a small family. The fact that Princess felt they had to go totally OTT with the veneer and varnish says it all. What do people actually really want from a boat? In what way does oceans (no pun intended) of veneer, mm thick varnish and fabulous meticulously stitched leather add to messing about on the water?
In the long run there is only 2 business strategies - pile them high and sell em cheap or very high end, high tech, anyone in the middle with "quality/hand made" or that old chestnut "customer service" will be overtaken. The volume manufacturer will learn from the volume of units in the field, and the cost driven desire to overcome manufacturing costs/problems. The results will be that more and more of that knowledge will produce a cheaper to make and a more capable product. The manufacturer can then chose to pursue market share and reduce prices, or hold their ground and increase profitability for a while.
Deleted User had it right with the toyota analogy - learn the low cost lessons first - thereafter making a product more expensive is very easy.
Beneteau, Jeaneau and co will continue to prosper, the so called UK big 3 ???????
Brand loyalty only exists if your customers keep coming back again and again to buy NEW boats. Anything else is just vanity.
In the long run there is only 2 business strategies - pile them high and sell em cheap or very high end, high tech, anyone in the middle with "quality/hand made" or that old chestnut "customer service" will be overtaken. The volume manufacturer will learn from the volume of units in the field, and the cost driven desire to overcome manufacturing costs/problems. The results will be that more and more of that knowledge will produce a cheaper to make and a more capable product. The manufacturer can then chose to pursue market share and reduce prices, or hold their ground and increase profitability for a while.
Deleted User had it right with the toyota analogy - learn the low cost lessons first - thereafter making a product more expensive is very easy.
Beneteau, Jeaneau and co will continue to prosper, the so called UK big 3 ???????
Brand loyalty only exists if your customers keep coming back again and again to buy NEW boats. Anything else is just vanity.
Last edited:
halcyon
Well-known member
Passing point, before selling that was Tom's thoughts, the 450 was about his big boat for average family, 3 cabin, we used to have discussions on a bigger boat, known as his proper boat. This was bigger, much higher spec trawler type yacht, we had started work on fly by wire switch gear for it, then Tom sold out and the project died. So we got bigger Sealines, rather than a range of boats designed for the high end of the market.
Brian
paul salliss
Well-known member
I am uncomfortable about the common man theme, but here goes,
Have a look at the Benteau site it has a wide range of boats to cater for the very people you refer to, my first boat was a new Antares 30 and there was nothing wrong with it, never let me down, its maiden voyage was to the West Country quality was OK, it got me in to boating
Have a look at the Benteau site it has a wide range of boats to cater for the very people you refer to, my first boat was a new Antares 30 and there was nothing wrong with it, never let me down, its maiden voyage was to the West Country quality was OK, it got me in to boating
GuyB
New member
The only way to get over this problem is to have separate brands as Toyota have with Lexus. The only example of this I can think of in the boating industry is Beneteau and Monte Carlo Yachts and AFAIK it has been very successful for them with MCY boats selling very well despite the Beneteau ownership.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely! Now, with the 'Monte Carlo' sub-brand (MC4, MC5, MC6) they have 'knitted' together the 3 brands, Beneteau, Monte Carlo and MCY to provide a customer journey as far as he wishes to go but always in the same Group - a bit like VAG?!
Absolutely! Now, with the 'Monte Carlo' sub-brand (MC4, MC5, MC6) they have 'knitted' together the 3 brands, Beneteau, Monte Carlo and MCY to provide a customer journey as far as he wishes to go but always in the same Group - a bit like VAG?!
oldgit
Well-known member
Folks are buying new cars as first time buyers.
A new basic UP is around £8k, a lease will get you one for around £25.00 a week,doubt that many buyers of a Murcielago worry that both cars are built by VW.
VAG have cars from the mundane to the marvelous,basically a finger in every pie,the boat builders simply do not have the size to do both ends of the spectrum ?
Suspect that our boat building business will go down the Pearl route of bespoke boats.
UK will abandon the top end to Italy the mid to France and UK will be left floating in "sea" of tired old Turbo 36s powered by engines fitted when diesel was 20p a litre.
Our boat industry stagnated in its own little world of monster engines,white carpet and mega sophisticated interiors chasing an ever decreasing circle of buyers,leaving the UK standing in the dust.
The French do it cheaper,the Italians simply do it better. !
A new basic UP is around £8k, a lease will get you one for around £25.00 a week,doubt that many buyers of a Murcielago worry that both cars are built by VW.
VAG have cars from the mundane to the marvelous,basically a finger in every pie,the boat builders simply do not have the size to do both ends of the spectrum ?
Suspect that our boat building business will go down the Pearl route of bespoke boats.
UK will abandon the top end to Italy the mid to France and UK will be left floating in "sea" of tired old Turbo 36s powered by engines fitted when diesel was 20p a litre.
Our boat industry stagnated in its own little world of monster engines,white carpet and mega sophisticated interiors chasing an ever decreasing circle of buyers,leaving the UK standing in the dust.
The French do it cheaper,the Italians simply do it better. !
Last edited:
Nick_H
Active member
Well it may be easy to make them, but it sure ain't easy to sell them. How well did the Ford Granada and Vauxhall Omega sell? Even Lexus, after 25 years, are only selling a handful of cars in Europe in comparison with the premium German brands.
Those same premium German brands have found it much easier to move into smaller, cheaper cars, but they've been very careful to keep them more expensive than the competition, accepting they will sell fewer of them as a result, to protect their brand value at the higher end.
