Why have the Big 3 abandoned the "ordinary" man

[halcyon]

We go round in circles, remember when we said BMC failed because of badge engineering, to-day we look at VAG who are badge engineering. BMW use the Mini countryman plate form for the 2 series, two model ranges common base again we hold it up as excellence, while ignoring that both were on the verge of going bust not that long ago, both survived because someone turned up with believe in the product.

Our industry worked because the owners believed, Sam at Fairline, Tom at Sealine, John at Sunseeker, once they lost total involvement, things started going wrong. We then had people who should be able to do it, rather than people who could do it.

Bottom line is why bother, the Germans make it better, the French make it cheaper, the Italians just make it, so why do we need to worry about building boats ?

Brian

 

[kashurst]

Lexus might not do as well in europe but they do very well in the US and Asia. Interesting to see Hondas' position too.
USA market share
Marque (owner) Market share
Mercedes-Benz* (Daimler) 17.7%
Lexus (Toyota) 16.4%
Audi (VW) 9.6%
Acura (Honda) 8.4%

VW started out as the cheap car for the masses (peoples car), interesting they now own and make Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Porsche etc - all now using common platforms and components, shared with Seat and Skoda. How much more does it cost to make an Audi A1 than a Seat Ibiza? Probably nothing but there is a noticeable price difference.

Mercedes went through a bad time in the 1990s as the so called cheaper brands caught them up and surpassed them on quality and reliability. Volvo's USP of safety was bypassed by the cheaper brands too, as their knowledge grew and they found they could make a car just as safe for less money.

When I first left Uni I worked for a while for Jaguar. They have a tear down department where they examine competitors cars. They took one of the first Lexus cars to bits. When they stripped the seat they found that the steel frame wasn't painted at all. "what a load of rubbish" the engineers laughed. Then the penny dropped. The steel frame is wrapped in plastic and leather and then spends its life inside a dehumidified air-conditioned box. It will probably never go rusty - certainly not enough to be a problem in the life of the car. No one will ever see it again. How much does it cost to paint our car seat frames?

By the way I'm not a lexus or a volkswagen fan - but I do like their thinking. I suspect the Beneteau group like it too.

 

[halcyon]

By the way I'm not a lexus fan - but I do like their thinking.

Only air-conditioned when running, rest of time cold and damp in winter, then there is storage at manufacture, trimmer and car builder.

Brian

 

[Nick_H]

VW started out as the cheap car for the masses (peoples car), interesting they now own and make Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Porsche etc ....

Mercedes went through a bad time in the 1990s as the so called cheaper brands caught them up and surpassed them on quality and reliability

The VW group companies you mention we're acquired, which proves nothing. How did VW get on when they tried to move upmarket in house? See many Phaetons on the road?

Mercedes went through a bad time because they had some well publicised quality problems, which damaged the brand. I was making the odd visit to Mercedes at the time, and working a lot around Stuttgart, and the quality problems were a source of national shame. In general though, the premium brands have not suffered at the hands of lower cost competition, in fact their volumes have flourished. It's the traditional mass market brands that are being hurt by competition from Korea Taiwan etc.

 

[halcyon]

The VW group companies you mention we're acquired, which proves nothing. How did VW get on when they tried to move upmarket in house? See many Phaetons on the road?

Mercedes went through a bad time because they had some well publicised quality problems, which damaged the brand. I was making the odd visit to Mercedes at the time, and working a lot around Stuttgart, and the quality problems were a source of national shame. In general though, the premium brands have not suffered at the hands of lower cost competition, in fact their volumes have flourished. It's the traditional mass market brands that are being hurt by competition from Korea Taiwan etc.

Which comes down to the German marketing ( propaganda ) machine is better than ours by a long shot.

Brian

 

[Dick Atcherley]

The VW group companies you mention we're acquired, which proves nothing. How did VW get on when they tried to move upmarket in house? See many Phaetons on the road?

Weirdly, in London you see lots of VW Phaetons on the road - the only thing is that they wear slightly different clothing and are badged as Bentley Continentals. It's a bizarre aspect to people's thinking that they are unwilling to buy a Phaeton when badged as a VW, but trip over themselves to buy more or less the same car (mechanically, anyway) when badged as a Bentley at twice the price.

However, to contribute my halfpennyworth to the original gist of the thread, whilst I could have stumped up the £200k to buy a new 30' powerboat, I instead opted to buy a 50 year old design classic and do a top to bottom overhaul (including a pair of modern cummins 6bt's) and end up with something with 0% depreciation and £150k in the bank. I think that the price of the boats has simply got out of hand, given the cost of the materials.

 

[kashurst]

"The VW group companies you mention we're acquired, which proves nothing. "
I think the opposite it proves everything - how did VW get wealthy enough to buy these companies and why did the original shareholders want to sell them?
The VW Phaeton was built as a test bed for the (then) new bentley continental. VW needed to know the new Bentley had absolutely no technical faults so built the Phaeton to get any last bugs out of it all. They didn't expect to sell many. the Bentley Continental is just a skin job on that platform and technology.
Audi was bought by VW from Daimler Benz who wanted rid of it (why?)
Bentley - went effectively bust
Lamborghini - staggered from one financial crisis to another- was going to go bust
Porsche - too clever by half chairman stuffed them financially, the underlying car business was good though.
Bugatti - went bust decades ago and brought back to life to show just what the VW group could do
Seat - taken over by fiat - things didn't improve, sold onto VW - things got better
Skoda - went effectively bust and resurrected using VW components as the bargain brand.

This way off the original thread now, but the point is that highly motivated volume manufacturers will invariably overtake niche, luxury manufacturers. They can either take over the existing company and brand,(VW) or create their own new brand (Toyota, Beneteau) Putting more leather and varnish on a boat doesn't make it a better boat, just an expensive one. Using volume sales to drive manufacturing productivity creates technical and commercial advantages that the low volume builder can never achieve because the mind set, technology, and market experience isn't there. Look what Princess did when they resurrected an old Marine Project 31 - blathered it with expensive wood etc.

Another true tale. My old boss used to buy a brand new Rolls Royce every January from the dealer in Mayfair. He did this for twenty years. As an experienced owner his view is they were completely carp. despite all the hand made-ness and the wood and leather etc, the performance, build quality and most importantly- reliability were rubbish. The problem was Rolls never made enough or got enough feedback from owners to get all the bugs out of their designs. When they break down they used to send a covered van to come and pick you up so no-one knew it was a conked out Roller. What happened - they effectively went bust and BMW bought the name of Rolls Royce Cars and started from scratch - er no they re-skinned a BMW 7 series with volume proven technology inside it.

Mercedes as you say went through a period of poor quality - why was that? Did they decide they needed cheaper parts or was it just bad luck?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

...Mercedes as you say went through a period of poor quality - why was that? Did they decide they needed cheaper parts or was it just bad luck?

It was the merger with Chrysler that did it. Worst of both worlds.

 

[Nick_H]

Fair enough Kashurst, I agree with a lot of what you say but times are changing. Defeat devices aside, VW are doing well, but most other non-premium volume producers are running scared because they can't compete with the emerging countries on price, or with the premium brands on desirability. No amount of lean manufacturing or use of technology is going to change that.

I'm going to call it a day here, because we're well off topic, and the analogies between the auto and marine industries are quite limited anyway. For instance, I don't see Princess or Sunseeker as niche manufacturers like Rolls Royce, Lamborghini or Bugatti as you seem to, but rather as premium mainstream builders more analogous to BMW or Mercedes, albeit in a comparatively tiny industry. Either way though, it's a far from perfect analogy, so I won't flog it any more.

 

[Portofino]

These Car / motoring analogies are in my view red herrings .
Most people in a westernised society need /have a car .Very few need a leisure boat as well -numbers are tiny ,Hence the car thing is an intellectual cul d sac !
Our so called big 2 only need less than 100 punters or maybe less than 50 each -depends on which side of the midline.
Midline defined as half size of the current longest .
Below the midline - There are plenty of small /mid size boat builders to fill that Mkt segment -which simply is not profitable .-So they court the bigger boat owner ,
95 % of SS are destined for export to live in sunnier climates .Here they have to compete with a global market .
Italy in particular .Once your get over a certain dare I say it floating appartment mind set -given off by a few posters on here ,-then its a toy yup a toy .So they have to compete against ,Overamarine , 70 -165 day boats , Wally , Managusta ,Palmer Johnson , Pershing ,Otam ,Itama -big Rivas there's a few over 100ft .
It's all about style ,pace and grace -

Discrectionary purchase -nobody needs a boat well those "over the midline " size .

Our big 2 need to "cut it " style wise and performance wise at the Worlds best anchorages , and the Worlds best marinas ,in the Worlds best boating locations were these customers operate .Boat has to look and feel like $1M and much more it's about image as much as the oilly machinery and tech .

This means the latest gizmo,s fit n finish etc -no poverty spec sub 40 ftr starter boats to blur production costs and marr the brand .

The last big 2 left are in transition at the moment with this lux mkt in there sights .80 -180 ft . £5M - £40M range .
As soon as ditch the stuff below the "midline " they will start to make a profit .
Don,t get confused with super yachts Lursen ,Benetti , et al - higher up - diff mkt segment .
Yes they have abandoned the "ordinary " man in the UK ,but that man has can easily find A N Other boat to start with. If helater rocks up with £5M in 2021 with view to buying an aspirational dream ( mugged by clever marketing ) - they will supply him with a starter boat -hoping he will eventually graduate up to the line £50 M - 160-180 ftr or what ever .
SS will rationalise the build process -and focus on selling stuff over 100 ft like the new 131 .
155 has a strong order book too -having to turn inpatient buyers away .
155 replacement I guess allready being cad .
Priny ? They are struggling with top end image -I have not seen any 34 M in the SoF ,
( plenty of SS 34, 37. m and shed loads of 30 M )
I think they do not strong enough market identity -they competing with the lux French /Italien 50-95 ft
makers
How ever the latest stuff style wise looks great so should grind on for a bit longer -unless those buyer numbers shrink -global downturn !
That's my 0.02 p worth from the SoF .
No USP -

 

[halcyon]

Audi was bought by VW from Daimler Benz who wanted rid of it (why?)

Audi merged with 3 other car firms ( DKW, Horch, Wanderer ) in the 1930 to form Auto Union, badge 4 rings, Audi did not have market so ceased production around 35. Merc acquire and sell DKW who always used air cooled engines, 64 VW buy Auto Union, 66 close DKW and launch Auto Union Audi based on DKW 103 fitted with 4 stroke water cooled ( I have read a 4 stroke designed by Merc in the the early 50's for DKW and formed the basis for Audi engines into the 90's ) later dropping Auto Union name but keeping the 4 rings.

From little acorns ....

If you look at Skoda after VW takeover they match previous model VW, just transfer production line and tooling, cheap simple way to get reliable car that were a joke.

All done by mirrors.

Brian

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Passing point, before selling that was Tom's thoughts, the 450 was about his big boat for average family, 3 cabin, we used to have discussions on a bigger boat, known as his proper boat. This was bigger, much higher spec trawler type yacht, we had started work on fly by wire switch gear for it, then Tom sold out and the project died. So we got bigger Sealines, rather than a range of boats designed for the high end of the market.

Thats very interesting because I believe the so-called trawler yacht market is one area of the market which is showing some growth. Certainly, Beneteau have done very well with their Swift range and by all accounts, Azimut and Absolute are doing good business with their Magellano and Navetta ranges. I have wondered for some time why the mainstream UK builders are just producing the same old designs of planing boat and ignoring this sector of the market. There must be a market for a British take on the trawler yacht

 

[Portofino]

Thats very interesting because I believe the so-called trawler yacht market is one area of the market which is showing some growth. Certainly, Beneteau have done very well with their Swift range and by all accounts, Azimut and Absolute are doing good business with their Magellano and Navetta ranges. I have wondered for some time why the mainstream UK builders are just producing the same old designs of planing boat and ignoring this sector of the market. There must be a market for a British take on the trawler yacht

No Mike --see post #70
It's all about image ,pace, and grace at the Worlds best marinas, anchorages, and locations .- were the target punters operate .
It's not about down to earth floating appartments , live aboard , fuel Eco , trawlerisms

 

[kashurst]

I have wondered if there is a place for a really good technical boat. So great hull, light weight - maybe carbon fibre option, very well thought through engines and drive installation with good access to everything, stabilisation as standard fit, minimal comforts like a charter sailing boat fit out. Heating and or aircon provided by portable units that can be put on board as and when needed with appropriate locations and fittings in place. So it would keep the weight down, keep the costs down, hopefully keep the fuel burn down, maybe a bit spartan for some people but would primarily work as an excellent boat for going places and be simple and easy to look after, so probably reliable. Cheap(ish) interior furnishings designed so they are easy to recover periodically and tough wall coverings with gel coat unashamedly but stylishly on show in places. Copper coat it at the factory so no more messing about with AF. To top it off would hydrofoils make it faster and burn less or do the opposite? So you get a great boat experience but don't have to worry about getting a scratch on your high gloss cherry or wenge wood floors etc or pay for it in the first place. When it comes time to sell or end of season, send all the easy to remove soft funishing covers off to the dry cleaners, jet wash the boat inside and out - jobs done.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

No Mike --see post #70
It's all about image ,pace, and grace at the Worlds best marinas, anchorages, and locations .- were the target punters operate .
It's not about down to earth floating appartments , live aboard , fuel Eco , trawlerisms

No I think you're wrong, portofino, the evidence is there. As I said Beneteau, Azimut and Absolute can sell every so-called trawler yacht they can make and many of these are seen in the swankiest marinas in the world. By the way, I say so called because these aren't proper trawler yachts at all in that they aren't any more capable of crossing oceans than the average planing boat although they may have a few more practical touches. However, the point is that they look as though they could and in that sense they reflect the growth of SUV sales in the car market. Many punters want a boat that looks a bit rufty tufty and is a bit practical in the same way as they might want a Range Rover despite the fact they live in the city

 

[DougH]

These Car / motoring analogies are in my view red herrings .
Most people in a westernised society need /have a car .Very few need a leisure boat as well -numbers are tiny ,Hence the car thing is an intellectual cul d sac !
Our so called big 2 only need less than 100 punters or maybe less than 50 each -depends on which side of the midline.
Midline defined as half size of the current longest .
Below the midline - There are plenty of small /mid size boat builders to fill that Mkt segment -which simply is not profitable .-So they court the bigger boat owner ,
95 % of SS are destined for export to live in sunnier climates .Here they have to compete with a global market .
Italy in particular .Once your get over a certain dare I say it floating appartment mind set -given off by a few posters on here ,-then its a toy yup a toy .So they have to compete against ,Overamarine , 70 -165 day boats , Wally , Managusta ,Palmer Johnson , Pershing ,Otam ,Itama -big Rivas there's a few over 100ft .
It's all about style ,pace and grace -

Discrectionary purchase -nobody needs a boat well those "over the midline " size .

Our big 2 need to "cut it " style wise and performance wise at the Worlds best anchorages , and the Worlds best marinas ,in the Worlds best boating locations were these customers operate .Boat has to look and feel like $1M and much more it's about image as much as the oilly machinery and tech .

This means the latest gizmo,s fit n finish etc -no poverty spec sub 40 ftr starter boats to blur production costs and marr the brand .

The last big 2 left are in transition at the moment with this lux mkt in there sights .80 -180 ft . £5M - £40M range .
As soon as ditch the stuff below the "midline " they will start to make a profit .
Don,t get confused with super yachts Lursen ,Benetti , et al - higher up - diff mkt segment .
Yes they have abandoned the "ordinary " man in the UK ,but that man has can easily find A N Other boat to start with. If helater rocks up with £5M in 2021 with view to buying an aspirational dream ( mugged by clever marketing ) - they will supply him with a starter boat -hoping he will eventually graduate up to the line £50 M - 160-180 ftr or what ever .
SS will rationalise the build process -and focus on selling stuff over 100 ft like the new 131 .
155 has a strong order book too -having to turn inpatient buyers away .
155 replacement I guess allready being cad .
Priny ? They are struggling with top end image -I have not seen any 34 M in the SoF ,
( plenty of SS 34, 37. m and shed loads of 30 M )
I think they do not strong enough market identity -they competing with the lux French /Italien 50-95 ft
makers
How ever the latest stuff style wise looks great so should grind on for a bit longer -unless those buyer numbers shrink -global downturn !
That's my 0.02 p worth from the SoF .
No USP -

Spot on Portofino, unfortunatly where Sunseeker are concerned there are too many people that refuse to see.

Mr Braithwaite is still a man with vision, and who commands enormous respect from the Sunseeker workforce. (Current & past)

 

[oldgit]

In 50 years perhaps the boat has gone from something to get you out on the water to something to show you have arrived ?

 

[DougH]

I have wondered if there is a place for a really good technical boat. So great hull, light weight - maybe carbon fibre option, very well thought through engines and drive installation with good access to everything, stabilisation as standard fit, minimal comforts like a charter sailing boat fit out. Heating and or aircon provided by portable units that can be put on board as and when needed with appropriate locations and fittings in place. So it would keep the weight down, keep the costs down, hopefully keep the fuel burn down, maybe a bit spartan for some people but would primarily work as an excellent boat for going places and be simple and easy to look after, so probably reliable. Cheap(ish) interior furnishings designed so they are easy to recover periodically and tough wall coverings with gel coat unashamedly but stylishly on show in places. Copper coat it at the factory so no more messing about with AF. To top it off would hydrofoils make it faster and burn less or do the opposite? So you get a great boat experience but don't have to worry about getting a scratch on your high gloss cherry or wenge wood floors etc or pay for it in the first place. When it comes time to sell or end of season, send all the easy to remove soft funishing covers off to the dry cleaners, jet wash the boat inside and out - jobs done.

Sounds awful to me.

If I had to put up with that sort of boat I would rather buy a horse drawn caravan.

 

[kashurst]

I'll put you down as a "very interested" then or is that a definite no - just to be clear.
was it the hydrofoil that put you off?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Perhaps better to have done both though brand image may work against that but Beneteau or is it Jeanneau have launched Prestige ( naff name ) ...

"Sunseeker" sounds like the package holiday firm in a 1970s Carry On film and "Princess" is what chavs have printed across the bums of their pink velour track suits. "Prestige" is not-at-all naff in comparison ...