Why have the Big 3 abandoned the "ordinary" man

[JumbleDuck]

... if you go on a car forum you don't see people complaining that Rolls Royce or Ferrari aren't making a car to compete with the VW Golf so they could afford one, or arguing that they should be doing to 'entice' people into the brand. People seem perfectly content to buy a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari if/when they can afford it despite this.

Ferrari used the "Dino" name for their low-cost offerings, and Porsche tried it with the 924 and more recently with the Boxster. Rolls-Royce haven't tried a budget version ... yet ...

 

[JumbleDuck]

A quick scan around my local car park reveals mostly old Fords and Vauxhalls, and a smattering of used BMWs and Mercs. Are Ferrari and Aston Martin therefore suffering from a 'short sighted lack of diversity'?

In the case of Aston Martin, their CEO seems to think so. From the BBC News website, less than a year ago (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31727799):

Andy Palmer called it the most important speech of his career. Barely six months into his job as chief executive of Aston Martin, he has unveiled a new strategy for the company at the Geneva Motor Show.
Aston Martin may be one of the most famous brands in motoring, but it's been loss-making for decades and has seen sales tumble.
Without a change of direction, the British sports car maker was facing a slow and ignominious demise. [...]
His new plan - backed by more than £500m of fresh money - involves broadening Aston Martin's range of cars to appeal to a younger and female customer.

 

[paul salliss]

Thats very interesting because I believe the so-called trawler yacht market is one area of the market which is showing some growth. Certainly, Beneteau have done very well with their Swift range and by all accounts, Azimut and Absolute are doing good business with their Magellano and Navetta ranges. I have wondered for some time why the mainstream UK builders are just producing the same old designs of planing boat and ignoring this sector of the market. There must be a market for a British take on the trawler yacht

I agree with this, I have always said that many people buy the wrong type of boats in the UK , at one time me included, you do see a lot of med style boats in UK marinas, to me it's style over substance

 

[benjenbav]

Ferrari used the "Dino" name for their low-cost offerings...

It's odd to remember that when you see the eye-watering prices Dinos command nowadays!

 

[benjenbav]

No I think you're wrong, portofino, the evidence is there. As I said Beneteau, Azimut and Absolute can sell every so-called trawler yacht they can make and many of these are seen in the swankiest marinas in the world. By the way, I say so called because these aren't proper trawler yachts at all in that they aren't any more capable of crossing oceans than the average planing boat although they may have a few more practical touches. However, the point is that they look as though they could and in that sense they reflect the growth of SUV sales in the car market. Many punters want a boat that looks a bit rufty tufty and is a bit practical in the same way as they might want a Range Rover despite the fact they live in the city

So...

Germany builds things that work

France: things that people want and can afford, without worrying about the odd rattle/bits falling off.

Italy: things with style.

Scandiwegia: things that look like a brick outhouse but will go to the north pole

Far east: things with good build but carp image.

Britain....?

Bit of all the above. Maybe, as with cars, we need to build a quirky combination of Scandi ability, with German quality control and lashings of leather.

Something that obviously won't sell but does.

If only F/L had launched a Holland & Holland version of the Targa 53 last year: remove the tender garage and replace it with a cold-room to hang game; make a virtue of the low ceiling over the bed by putting a gun cabinet within easy reach...

 

[DougH]

Trawler yachts have been around for years and will always have appeal to a section of the boating public. but, just what they offer over a 'conventional' motor yacht I cannot see.

Having said that i have always loved the Trader Range and have hired them in the Med.

Would I buy one, no, they are not as relaxing to live on in the heat and are to slow with small engines or horrendous fuel guzzlers at 18-29knots.

If they were suitable for Med boating they would be more prolific.

In the UK they would appeal more as life is spent inside the boat, but the UK boats do not travel (on average) the distances that boats do in the Med.

Folks that start with smaller craft of approx. 20 feet long rarely work their way up the size range and end up with a boat larger than 35 - 45 feet. The increase in cost for the larger vessels is enormous and as most folks (not all) are buying their boats on a salary they find the increased cost prohibitive.

The next group buy boats in the 50 - 75 foot range where the cost of running them is huge when compared with the under 50 foot boats, and in general are people who own or have owned their own business and have a much larger deposable income.

Above 75 foot range you have people with greater wealth and to put a cap on the upper length is very difficult as I would suggest that a full time captain and crew are becoming essential.

The number of people on the forum who have moved from group 1 to group 2 are in the very low numbers.

Another aspect to consider is the number of small boats that are sold for fishermen and are seldom used by the family other than on hot days. If you are a keen fisherman it is easy to justify the cost of the boat.

Once you get above 50 foot don't even try to justify the cost, you are on a losing wicket. Best to admit you just love boats.:encouragement:

For a further group another option is available and that is to buy a much larger second hand boat at a much reduced price compared with new and put up with the large boat costs.

This is a very popular option in the Med.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It's odd to remember that when you see the eye-watering prices Dinos command nowadays!

Indeed. A friend of mine bought one about ten years ago and sold it five years later (to buy a Tesla) - it's the only car on which he ever made a profit. Horrible thing, it was. Looked stunning, sounded fantastic but it was impossible to get into or out of with any degree to self composure and the ride was absolutely appalling. Put a wheel over a cat's eye and your spine knew it. Fine for very short trips, useless for anything more than ten miles if you wanted to be able to walk at the end.

 

[Ian h]

Ferrari used the "Dino" name for their low-cost offerings, and Porsche tried it with the 924 and more recently with the Boxster. Rolls-Royce haven't tried a budget version ... yet ...

And which cars now sell the most in the Porsche range................

 

[ari]

Ferrari used the "Dino" name for their low-cost offerings, and Porsche tried it with the 924 and more recently with the Boxster. Rolls-Royce haven't tried a budget version ... yet ...

I think the expression you were searching for might have been 'lower cost', not low cost.

The Dino might have been cheaper than other Ferraris, but it certainly didn't have people trying to decide between a Fiat 500, 2CV or a Dino. Exactly the same with the Boxster - 'cheap' compared to a 911 Turbo, sure, but it still starts at forty grand for an absolutely bog basic model before you even blink at the inevitable options. An 'everyman' car then? Hardly, it's still a very expensive motor car.

And as I say, no one complains about that. No one feels that they need to be 'eased' into the brand with 'entry level everyman' £15K VW Polo equivalent Porsche, they still manage to simply buy one if they want one once they can afford one or buy a used one. Exactly as they do with Bentley, Ferrari, Lamborghini and other prestige brands with high priced entry points.

I just don't get this argument that Princess, Sunseeker etc must have cheaper boats. No doubt they would if there were a viable market but they've presumably done their sums and worked out that with the capacity for boat building that they have, there are better ways of deploying it.

 

[halcyon]

I just don't get this argument that Princess, Sunseeker etc must have cheaper boats. No doubt they would if there were a viable market but they've presumably done their sums and worked out that with the capacity for boat building that they have, there are better ways of deploying it.

The problem with this is changing times, so the points under discussion are fluid. We take Sealine as being cheap, low spec, low whatever, but in the 80's most boats had no extras, they were standard, the 185 was the only model that did not have full AC and a mains charger, pressurised hot water etc. Early 90's Tom said blow this, I'm going low spec like Princess, so a lot of things became add on's, instead of multi-stage charging we made a single voltage, switch panel called it a shore support as it was not really a charger. But the features that speeded up production were kept, such as pre-made harness.
At the time Princess just cost more to build, for instance it took longer for the electrician at Princess to load all his cable onto the boat to wire it, than Sealine's fitter to fit the harness. Thus through put for the same labour at Kidderminster was far higher than Princess. This went all through the production, so the difference in cost has nothing to do with quality but product design and production methods.

Any body still use Value Analysis these days ? or even value engineering ?

Brian

 

[henryf]

The problem with the UK boat building industry is that it is 20, 30 or 40 years out of date. The Isle of Wight of the manufacturing world if you will. Financial losses are due to production methods and business strategy. Princess has so many models not because they need them but because each new model replaces an existing old model. The line up diversity mistake was made decades ago and they are just rolling it over year after year. Don't get me wrong, the designs are superb and they have a very skilled team who totally understand internal space - that's where Fairline failed and even Sunseeker have yet to master. Where Sunseeker shine is in their marketing. Truly outstanding. When I tell non boating people I have a motorboat they all ask if it's a sunseeker because they've heard of them. When I tell them it's a Princess they look at me with a blank expression.

There are a few new materials and processes but they are just hundreds and thousands sprinkled on the cake. The business needs to stop, take a breath and ask themselves what each model actually does. If you end up using galley location, size of refrigerator or length of bathing platform to differentiate then there is no reason for a unique model. Build one boat that can be easily adapted and enjoy scale of economy savings as well as significant development cost savings. How that is divided up between extra profit and price reductions a wiser man than I can comment.

Then you need to decide exactly who and how your product is going to be sold. Particularly when you are building to order dealers become less important. When they are funding your factory with stock orders you need them to survive, now everyone claims to enjoy healthy, customer funded production schedules they might just be the greedy monster in the middle. If they support used prices then that's beneficial to everyone but I'm not convinced they do. The used market needs to wise up and realise the difference between buying a main dealer owned and guaranteed boat and a brokerage / private sale boat.

Do people have a god given right to go out and buy a new boat? No, it's a luxury reserved for a very small percentage of the population. Princess need to find just 300 people world wide this year. I suspect part of the rational for losing staff is the realisation that those 300 boats only need the remaining staff to build them. What modernisation there is taking place streamlines production. 10 years ago it took more people to build the boat, veneer wasn't laser cut, some bloke with a scalpel and a cup of tea took all morning to do the saloon table. Today it takes 20 minutes and you can have any design you want. Did anyone see the box tantalus on the Princess 75 at the show - mind blowing.

Henry

 

[JumbleDuck]

And as I say, no one complains about that. No one feels that they need to be 'eased' into the brand with 'entry level everyman' £15K VW Polo equivalent Porsche...

In Porsche terms, though, a Boxster is (and a 924 was) entry level. Same sort of money as a moderately posh BMW.

 

[henryf]

In Porsche terms, though, a Boxster is (and a 924 was) entry level. Same sort of money as a moderately posh BMW.

Which in it's self is seen as an expensive car. In crude terms a cheap Porsche is £50k a dearer one £100k and they produce the odd speciality car at £500k plus. They don't have one at £12k, another one at £18k, another one at £23k, another one at £28k, another one at £32k, another one at £37k, another one at........

By comparing boat builders to mainstream car manufacturers you are elevating them way above their actual position as outdated cottage industries, all be it ones which employ a few people and use big sheds.

Henry

 

[JumbleDuck]

Which in it's self is seen as an expensive car. In crude terms a cheap Porsche is £50k a dearer one £100k and they produce the odd speciality car at £500k plus. They don't have one at £12k, another one at £18k, another one at £23k, another one at £28k, another one at £32k, another one at £37k, another one at........

Do people work their way up (if there is an "up") through the Porsche range? I am struck by the number of people here who seem to change their motorboats every year or two ... I don't think this is typical raggie behaviour. Of course it may not be typical motorboat behaviour either.

By comparing boat builders to mainstream car manufacturers you are elevating them way above their actual position as outdated cottage industries, all be it ones which employ a few people and use big sheds.

Perhaps it would be fairer to compare them to the handcrafted end of the car market, like Bristol (deceased).

 

[halcyon]

The problem with the UK boat building industry is that it is 20, 30 or 40 years out of date. The Isle of Wight of the manufacturing world if you will. Financial losses are due to production methods and business strategy. Princess has so many models not because they need them but because each new model replaces an existing old model. The line up diversity mistake was made decades ago and they are just rolling it over year after year. Henry

No go back to 1970, George Hurley offered two layout for the yacht, all internal parts were pre made a kit, dropped in and glassed, deck had a moulded headliner, fit deck boat finished. Boat designed and optimised for moving yachts down the line, maximise factory through put

In the 1980's Sealine made one range, most extras came as standard, partly as selling feature, but it also moved boats through the factory faster, they were taking 16 days to build a 360 foot boat,again all parts pre-built as a kit maximising profit.

Not all were the same, but a number were, the vast choice is a new thing, well recent,

Brian

 

[oldgit]

Praaps this is the end of the "quality" UK builder ,Broom were the first, Fairline merely the latest.
Maybe that boat market is simply not there anymore.
A foreign company possibly Chinese/ Middle Eastern or Indian company will purchase the Fairline branding,keep the design in UK but build and source everything elsewhere enabling a wider size range and price points to be covered
Tata soon sorted Landrover.

 

[halcyon]

Why do we have this obsession with we must make everything cheap ? there is no profit in cheap, profit is in quality and quality cost very little more than cheap.

The Germans learnt it.

Brian

 

[ari]

Originally Posted by ari

And as I say, no one complains about that. No one feels that they need to be 'eased' into the brand with 'entry level everyman' £15K VW Polo equivalent Porsche...

In Porsche terms, though, a Boxster is (and a 924 was) entry level. Same sort of money as a moderately posh BMW.

And in Princess terms, a Princess V39 is entry level. Same sort of money as a moderately posh Beneteau if you like.

 

[ari]

Which in it's self is seen as an expensive car. In crude terms a cheap Porsche is £50k a dearer one £100k and they produce the odd speciality car at £500k plus. They don't have one at £12k, another one at £18k, another one at £23k, another one at £28k, another one at £32k, another one at £37k, another one at........

By comparing boat builders to mainstream car manufacturers you are elevating them way above their actual position as outdated cottage industries, all be it ones which employ a few people and use big sheds.

Henry

Porsche might not (although there is no doubt that they have, and continue to, widen their product range), but look at Audi. I'm old enough to remember when Audi made the 80 and the 100. Now look at them, model after model after model in ever smaller increments.

Look at Mercedes - used to be a C Class, an E Class and an S Class. Now it's A, B, C, CLA, CLS, E, G, GL, GLA, GLC, GLE, GLS, GS, S, SL, SLK, V, AMG GT, plus all the AMG versions of the individual models.

Look at Volkswagon - once Beetle, Golf, Passat, and that was about it. How many different models and niches does their range now occupy?

Arguably, big car manufacturers are finally waking up to what boat manufacturers have been doing for years - offering choice, diversity and ever widening model ranges.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why do we have this obsession with we must make everything cheap ? there is no profit in cheap, profit is in quality and quality cost very little more than cheap.

The Germans learnt it.

I think it has more to do with a British view that hand-made is good because it's expensive. It isn't. No small scale car manufacturer in the world can get close to the bodyshell tolerances Ford stamp into a squillion Mondeos every year and no boatbuilders depending on blokes wandering around with plywood and buckets of resin can get close to the quality Bavaria manage. Of course Bavaria target the cheap end of the market, but that is nothing to do with the production methods; it's where they see the money as being.