Ok I should know but I don't so asking for advice

dialdan

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A practical solution might be to move the mast - you don’t say model of you new found toy in what is otherwise a florid description but maybe revealing the make might elicit helpful advice from fellow suffers -seems to me trading in might not be far off though?
Yep could be mast raked too far aft
 

Mister E

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Sometimes I don't bother to try and tack normally I just go the other way and keep the sail full of wind.
After all why the rush.

The Ladybird book of sailing was recommended on here, so I got a copy and found it useful to understand some of the terms and the advice.
It is nice and clear plus easy to read.
 

westernman

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There are times when I feel like 'Dummy at sailing' .... we all have our moments when we think - Why did I do that !!

Hoisted a genny before connecting sheets ??

Thrown out anchor - no rode connected ??

Hit astern / ahead on engine at wrong moment ??

there's an endless list !!

Left the dock before disconnecting the shore power cable?
I also tried that in my car as well, but it would not let me.
 
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Refueler

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Let the dock before disconnecting the shore power cable?
I also tried that in my car, but it would not let me.

My old jetty - I did just that ... luckily the power cable to jetty parted in first few feet....

I couldn't figure out why boat was having trouble getting moving - it was slowwww ... then looked behind ... the cable was pulling the last section of jetty which had come away from the rest !!
 

Sea Hustler

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Yep could be mast raked too far aft
Now we're getting technical, She's a Husky 24 Hustler, from the many very helpful comments that others have posted, I am gaining the impression that most of my issues stem from two areas of concern. The first is that she has the hydrodynamic properties of a house brick, blunt and solid in appearance, sluggish in performance and useless in application, when added to the other major factor at play here, which is that her skipper has extremely limited experience and in most cases none at all and you have a receipt for all the sailing attributes of a dead elephant.

Whilst attempting to put that limited experience into practice, as we all do in life, I have called upon the many other skills I have acquired in my over 70 years of doing stuff. for example, I didn't quite understand the issue of 'stalling the rudder' but then as "Refueler' has just explained it, I was able to go back to my days as a novice glider pilot and visualise the rudder as the wing of my Blanik Glider, applying my experience at 5,000 feet to that of wallowing about halfway through a tack, I now understand exactly what is meant by "stalling the rudder" and can apply that knowledge to my horizontal flight over water.

Messing about with the rake of the mast is not something I can compare to any previous experience and as a consequence, not something I really want to get into if I can avoid it. There are a number of issues that others have suggested may be at play here but in that regard I am applying the 'if it aint broke, don't fix it principle' Assuming that before her previous owners got their hands on her and turned her into a floating flat, she had been used as a Motorsailer and that when sold she was set up pretty much correctly to do that job. I guess over time, things could have got slack or moved a little here or there but as I know nothing of angle of dangles or twang of twine, Im going to leave those sorts of things until all other avenues have been exhausted and then scrape my few remaining buttons together and get an expert to look at it.
Thanks for the advice though.
 

Refueler

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My old jetty - I did just that ... luckily the power cable to jetty parted in first few feet....

I couldn't figure out why boat was having trouble getting moving - it was slowwww ... then looked behind ... the cable was pulling the last section of jetty which had come away from the rest !!
My old jetty before I replaced with floating pontoons.

gTfty6al.jpg


QEXYeDll.jpg


Now you can see why the end parted from the rest !! The boat was always moored stern to ...
 

Sea Hustler

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Sometimes I don't bother to try and tack normally I just go the other way and keep the sail full of wind.
After all why the rush.

The Ladybird book of sailing was recommended on here, so I got a copy and found it useful to understand some of the terms and the advice.
It is nice and clear plus easy to read.
That sums up my philosophy quite well, I tried turning under sail twice then when that didn't work, I fired up the diesel wind generator, that did the trick but deflated my ego at the same time, hence the original post.
 

Sea Hustler

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Sailing for Dummies worked for us.
May get that, I need it, although I understand the principles of flight (novice glider pilot many decades ago) I just need to lay down on my side while applying the same principles, why don't we think of these things when in the heat of the moment we are more concerned with how close that million pound cruiser is moored to us that humming the words of Rio as we depart the dock.
 

Refueler

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Now we're getting technical, She's a Husky 24 Hustler, from the many very helpful comments that others have posted, I am gaining the impression that most of my issues stem from two areas of concern. The first is that she has the hydrodynamic properties of a house brick, blunt and solid in appearance, sluggish in performance and useless in application, when added to the other major factor at play here, which is that her skipper has extremely limited experience and in most cases none at all and you have a receipt for all the sailing attributes of a dead elephant.

Whilst attempting to put that limited experience into practice, as we all do in life, I have called upon the many other skills I have acquired in my over 70 years of doing stuff. for example, I didn't quite understand the issue of 'stalling the rudder' but then as "Refueler' has just explained it, I was able to go back to my days as a novice glider pilot and visualise the rudder as the wing of my Blanik Glider, applying my experience at 5,000 feet to that of wallowing about halfway through a tack, I now understand exactly what is meant by "stalling the rudder" and can apply that knowledge to my horizontal flight over water.

Messing about with the rake of the mast is not something I can compare to any previous experience and as a consequence, not something I really want to get into if I can avoid it. There are a number of issues that others have suggested may be at play here but in that regard I am applying the 'if it aint broke, don't fix it principle' Assuming that before her previous owners got their hands on her and turned her into a floating flat, she had been used as a Motorsailer and that when sold she was set up pretty much correctly to do that job. I guess over time, things could have got slack or moved a little here or there but as I know nothing of angle of dangles or twang of twine, Im going to leave those sorts of things until all other avenues have been exhausted and then scrape my few remaining buttons together and get an expert to look at it.
Thanks for the advice though.

I love the credit - but actually it was post #80 ... 'westernman' I think that explained stalled rudder.

But overall ... I think you are getting there ... the boat is what it is .. faffing about with mast rake and so on will not cure it. Its a matter of accepting as I think you already have ... to use "Keep Turning Left's" expression : Its a 4kt slug !
 

ashtead

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I might have set off a slightly too technical thought train -I just thought maybe where the mast attaches to deck it might have an option to move back on what might be called a mast plate . I seem to recall small westerly’s had such a plate giving option to bolt in at different places. We never moved the mast back on the plate on a centaur but it sailed slightly quicker in the tack provided the winches didn’t jam or the headsail got caught etc.
 

oldmanofthehills

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Just to explain to OP re rudder /tiller angle going in to the tack. It is a bit like an aeroplane wing the angle of attack with water (air) speed should be optimal for max lift (turning force from rudder) . Too much and it will tend to stall. ie flow becomes confused. Too little angle of attack and you get less lift as you might hope for. So a little rudder to start the turn then as the stern moves sideways the angle of arrival of the water to the rudder changes to reduce angle of attack. So you can then increase the tiller angle to take advantage.
On my little boat a bit like a dinghy (deep fin keel deep rudder) it can turn rapidly such that stern moves sideways quite fast so rudder can be swung more.
Re yopur rudder size and shape. Yes I imagine it could be improved a lot. However probably constraints like keel in front of rudder and max draft of rudder dictate what you have.
Balance of rudder is area of rudder forward of the shaft such that in turning the water pressure on front of rudder (the balance area) tends to aid the tiller turning force.
A high aspect rudder is shorter from front to back (chord) but deeper to get area. More efficient and less tiller load. But again only if it will fit on the boat. I have increased the depth of my rudder (GRP) and increased area forward of pintles. (shaft) for a lot more power of rudder. (needed in my case with shy spinnaker and heeling boat.) Not your problem.
But in the end just try to manage what you have and most importantly ENJOY. ol'will
Laminar Flow did a whole series of posts on rudder and deadwood improvement.

I bought £250s worth of builders foam, fibre and epoxy and I followed his advice (much fibre and foam left over). Took only 4 separate days in the dog days of february when resin took 2 days to harden. Really really easy, one simply fill in the gaps and add a bit

Autopilot doesnt get confused and correct 340 degrees instead of 20. Weather helm almost unnoticeable but still there (lee helm is dangerous). Turns better - still not a racing yacht mind you
 

Refueler

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I might have set off a slightly too technical thought train -I just thought maybe where the mast attaches to deck it might have an option to move back on what might be called a mast plate . I seem to recall small westerly’s had such a plate giving option to bolt in at different places. We never moved the mast back on the plate on a centaur but it sailed slightly quicker in the tack provided the winches didn’t jam or the headsail got caught etc.

I have similar ... blade deck mount and slotted mast foot ... I have 5 or 6 bolt holes to choose ... I made mistake last step of mast by fitting too far fwd ... made no difference to sailing ! but caused the cabin top to deform where pressure was now on fwd edge of blade mount and backing ...

I know the Husky - never sailed one - but guy I knew had one years ago .... if OP has the blade and slot type mount - like mine - will make very little difference ... IMHO.
 

boomerangben

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Ok, I should know but I don't and there is a good reason why, which is because I don't know.

The story so far; so I learnt to sail about 55 years ago, or to be more accurate, I did a weekend sailing course on Lake Bala in Wales on an outward bound course sailing a Mirror dinghy. If I say so myself, that weekend was one of the most formative few days of my entire childhood and stirred something in me that I remembered for the next 55 years as I did the work, marry, father , divorce, marry again, work, retire thing. During that time I also served at sea for a couple of years, did a fair bit of Kayaking and raced power boats at National level. So it made perfect sense to me to buy my first proper sail boat when I retired last year.

She is a 24ft 50/50 motor sailer, built 1968, a bit scruffy but I will get to the pretty stuff later, sleeps 6 (yeah right, may sleep 6 but living aboard, no way) still she weighs in at about 3 1/2 tons, draws 2' 6" with encapsulated bilge keels and has a hull speed of 6 knots according to the stats I've been able to find. Roller furling on both genoa and main and would give any America's Cup Race Team a good run for their money, before I awake from my dream and realised that the only foiling that was going on here was in the galley.

I've spent the past 18 months returning her to a seagoing condition after her previous owners turned her into a floating apartment complete with 13 amp ring main, solid fuel stove where the flue came straight out of the starboard deck right in line with the jib car and more Hammerite paint on all the moving parts of the deck fittings than you could shake a nothing works now boat hook at. Eventual I got her ready for sea and recently moved her under diesel wind from Essex to Chichester where I have been going out in her as much as possible to relearn any slight sailing skills I may have retained and highlight the many jobs I still have to do to make both her and I ready for the open ocean - well cruising the south Coast to be more accurate.

So here it is, this weekend I wanted to get her out to sea and hoist the sails to see if I could improve on the 1.5 knots I had previously achieved under sail (in very very light air I may add) and figure out how to trim the sails etc. So armed with my trusted diagrams about close hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach and all points south I managed to get her up to 4.9 knots which is 1 knot and a pip off her hull speed. This was in a force 4/5 and I may add some interestingly swelly swells. So as my Mrs 1st Mate said between hurling her breakfast all over the cockpit sole and muttering things like "bloody )(**&^ what's wrong with a solid surface that doesn't rock about the whole damn time and -huwwwweeeee "oh look there's my breakfast again", where I don't have to look at the sausage sandwich I eat a few hours ago again. Then came my problem, after sailing close hauled, backing off to a close reach and then a beam reach, where I achieved my hitherto unimagined speed of 4.9 knots (I previously held the class water speed record whilst racing the power boat of 81.4 mh and also won the Scottish National Championship) But this was 4.9knots using nothing but the wind instead of a 600 horsepower Mercury racing engine turning a prop at stupid revolutions per minute, that was so sharp you would cut you finger off if you were careless enough to slide it down the leading edge, I thought if I ever wanted Mrs 1st Mate to stand on deck doing an impression of Simon Le Bon and Duran Duran singing Rio, I had best turn around and head back to the flat waters of Chichester Harbour.

This is where Rod Stewart and I had a slight disagreement, you see whereas he "was sailing, he was sailing cross the waters, cross the sea" I wasn't. Well to be precise, I was, but not in the direction Mrs 1st Mate wanted me to be. And this is where I need some friendly advice, note I said friendly because there will be a multitude of detractors who will say "listen to your wife, sell it and buy a camper van" So there I am, charging along at breakneck speed, so fast the paint is being stripped from the hull as we leap from crest to crest, assorted molluscs that had clung like limpets (they were actually limpets I think) to the antifouling were dying because we are out of water for so long, wind in my bald head, spray flying so thick it tasted like a salt water smoothie and now I had to turn. So wind is currently on my starboard quarter, main is sheeted in so boom is over the port quarter, Genoa is trimmed so widest part of the sail is just on the rail and I turn to starboard. Wheel to starboard and she begins to come round, I get far enough round so that we are pretty much broadside onto the wind and she stops turning, I release the loaded genoa sheet and prepare to haul in the lazy sheet once her head comes through the wind. but short of letting the entire length run through the block and fly free,she just stops turning. I can see that the wind is now blowing side on straight into the genoa preventing the bow from coming any further into the wind and no chance of going across it and despite having the helm (wheel} hard over, she just will not come round any farther. So I rinse and repeat by falling off the wind and regaining some speed, same thing, every time I get broadside to the wind, the genoa fills and she wont come round any further, She bloody well does when I turn on the engine and drive her through the wind but strangely I think thats call motoring not sailing.

So what am I doing wrong, I know I'm doing something wrong but as a 70 year old who learnt to sail in a little mirror dinghy over half a century ago, my memory isn't that good, or they didn't teach us that bit on Lake Bala, so I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here. YES I KNOW, go and take a sailing course, but I have sunk virtually every penny I have into this project and I simply cannot afford to do that even though I know it would be super useful, would remove the need for me to embarrass myself by posting this on the YBW forum and avoid any chance of some young kid who has been sailing since he was three, from falling overboard laughing at my pathetic attempts to sail back to my home port. And beside, If I did that it would mean those of you who are going to say, "go and take a sailing course " would not have anything to write about now would you. So its life jack on, life buoy fitted, life sling fitted, radio course done and radio to hand along with grab bag, dinghy towed behind and a few choice words to Poseidon before casting off and hope for the best while learning as you go.

As I said, it would be most helpful if people could not laugh too loudly, but rather offer simple advice as I intend to sail down to Cornwall this summer and that will be rather difficult if a can't turn Westward from Chichester as I will have to amend my destination to wherever Eastward takes me.

Be nice, I know Im setting myself up for a real roasting here but hey ho, go for it if you want, Im old enough and ugly enough to take it but you will get some back believe me.
Sailing is about going out and enjoying yourself. It all depends on what makes you tick. If you want to always sail at hull speed you’ll need to invest in new sails, a rig tune and fancy anti foul. Or a different more powerfully rigged boat. Or you could dispose of your speed log/minimise the size of the SOG indicator on your GPS and have fun sailing and getting the best out of yourself and the boat. Hopefully that will make you smile. Which is what life is all about. Creating smiles on others and on you
 

Sea Hustler

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There are times when I feel like 'Dummy at sailing' .... we all have our moments when we think - Why did I do that !!

Hoisted a genny before connecting sheets ??

Thrown out anchor - no rode connected ??

Hit astern / ahead on engine at wrong moment ??

there's an endless list !!
Oh your words are music to my ears. The one take I gained from last week end was in a conversation I had with Mrs 1st Mate in the car on the drive home. "I need to think ahead more" said I.

Mistakes thus far listed in magnitude of screwuppery rather than date/time stamp

1. Make sure that after friend has spliced anchor rode to chain, that he has stored said anchor chain and rode in the anchor locker in such a fashion as to enable you to deploy the anchor for the very first time as you arrive nervously in the middle of a mass of boats all serenely swinging on their hooks just off the beach. Had said checks been made it may not have been necessary to place vessel on the sand and allow it to dry out over night. This would have negated the need to leap from the warmth of one's bed in the wind, rain and dark to reset the anchor at 2.00 am while realising that it was certain to drag if you simply kicked it into the sand as you had done after dragging it 30 mtrs away from the boat while you went for a walk along the beach. Could have meant you would not need to keep reassuring the 1st Mate that this was quite normal. Had this also not been the case, perhaps it would have been possible to get off the sand the next morning when the hitherto 'flat as a millpond sea and ner a breath of wind' from the night before, had turned into a stiff onshore breeze whipping up a significant swell causing much straining up muscles and bumping off the bottom before physically dragging 3 ish tons of reluctant boat against the wind and waves into deep enough water to start the engine and motor into enough of it to manually pull the remaining metres of 10mm chain onboard and dump it on the deck. VOW TO SELF TO CHECK ANCHOR WILL DEPLOY BEFORE ARRIVING AT ANCHORAGE

2. Carry out some basic servicing of the engine which has not run for 5 years while on the hard at old marina. Change water pump impeller, fuel filter, oil filter, assorted hoses, fan belts, clamps oil and water, batteries, fit new engine stop cable, spill rail and anything else that could fail. Check everything, check it again. start engine and stand back in amazement that it fired up first time, run engine on fast tickover for an hour before stopping and checking for leaks. make note that rev counter does not work, nor amp meter although water temp and oil gauges seem to be ok. Check for leaks of any kind and find none. Start engine again and run it for another hour in forward at about 1/4 throttle, stop and check again for leaks. Decide all is well and suggest to 1st mate "we go for a tootle up the river". Set off but soon realise that oil pressure gauge is now reading zero but think 'oh it must be a bit dodgy because it was working before'. Chug up river for 45 minutes before turning for home. Being somewhat surprised when as completing the turn, engine goes bye byes and stops, conveniently directly upwind of fisherman anchored midstream dangling a hook in the water. Realising he may not be amused if we are blown straight into him, hoist Genoa and sail clear before dropping hook and calling Yard on VHF. Take offer of assistance from canoeist paddling by only to be told as he clambered aboard, "I've been out on the river all day off my face on acid" look into his eyes and make mental note to self OMFG, what have we done. Accept tow from boatyard launch which has just arrived and happily chugg downstream toward safety of marina. Express alarm to Harbourmaster driving launch when in response to dope head requesting he release tow and we will sail back, he bl**dy well does and we spend next two and half hour stuck on mud until local RNLI Rib comes steaming passed looking for a canoeist reported 4 hours overdue, Accept tow from RNLI and vow two things to self 1. ENSURE THAT WHEN NEW OIL FILTER COMES WITH TWO DIFFERENT 'O' RINGS IN THE BOX AS WELL AS THE NEW FILTER, YOU FIT THE CORRECT SIZE RING SO THAT ALL YOUR OIL IS NOT PUMPED OUT OF THE TOP OF THE FILTER CANISTER AND INTO THE BILGES CAUSING YOUR OIL GAUGE TO READ ZERO AND CAUSING YOUR ENGINE TO SEIZE UP ( thankfully not solid and after letting it cool overnight and replacing the oil, it started again with no real lasting effect, apart from knowing there must be some scouring of the bores but on a 54 year old engine, that should be ok) and 2. NEVER LET A STRANGER ABOARD EVER AGAIN

3. . Ensure that before you let go of your new mooring buoy, you have attached sufficient lead to it complete with some sort of floaty device to enable you to grab it with a boat hook upon your return. Realising that you cannot catch the shackle atop the buoy with the hook as you come round for the 5th time IS NOT THE TIME YOU SHOULD REALISE YOUR MISTAKE.

4. Start the engine and leave it ticking over to warm up while you busy yourself with making ready for sea. Panic when engine suddenly stops reminiscent of the time it did so in item 2 above. after panic subsides and brain is able to do some logical stuff, realise IT WOULD BE PRUDENT TO TURN ON FUEL TAP.


5 Drink too much wine while in Dover Marina on trip from Essex to Chichester, allow friend (of anchor rode fame) to take her out of marina and wonder why after a few minutes the water temp is running at 1,000 C, before realising he hasn't opened the seacock, correct error and learn NOT TO TRUST ANYONE EVER AGAIN.

56 Row ashore with anchor rode friend in small 2.3 metre dinghy and laugh like a drain as he makes fundamental error of standing upright in small inflatable dinghy whilst trying to get onto pontoon and falls in water smacking me in the face with his elbow as he does so and causing glasses to cut bridge of my nose. Fail miserably to assuage Mrs 1st Mate's annoyance whilst laughing my rrrs off at friend looking like drowned rat whilst 1st mate who has never trusted him lets rip at " how dare he put her husband at risk with his stupidity" (Oh I can't swim by the way but always wear my PLP, she loves me a lot LOL) FIND WAYS TO RETAIN FRIENDSHIP WITH SOMEONE WIFE WANTS TO STAB.

Just a small offering of the errors made thus far though I fear responding to your post with a few of my own, may open up a litany of similar stories from others, many far worse than mine.
 
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Sea Hustler

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I have similar ... blade deck mount and slotted mast foot ... I have 5 or 6 bolt holes to choose ... I made mistake last step of mast by fitting too far fwd ... made no difference to sailing ! but caused the cabin top to deform where pressure was now on fwd edge of blade mount and backing ...

I know the Husky - never sailed one - but guy I knew had one years ago .... if OP has the blade and slot type mount - like mine - will make very little difference ... IMHO.
Not sure what blade and slot mount actually is but the mast is deck stepped into a U shaped upright and secured by two bolts. Strangely enough when doing some work on the forestay mount, I checked the two bolts and while both were secure through the foot of the mast, I was able to easily undo the nuts and pull both bolts (one at a time) out through the mast implying there was no pressure on them, not sure if that good or not.
 

Sea Hustler

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Sailing is about going out and enjoying yourself. It all depends on what makes you tick. If you want to always sail at hull speed you’ll need to invest in new sails, a rig tune and fancy anti foul. Or a different more powerfully rigged boat. Or you could dispose of your speed log/minimise the size of the SOG indicator on your GPS and have fun sailing and getting the best out of yourself and the boat. Hopefully that will make you smile. Which is what life is all about. Creating smiles on others and on you
A man after my own heart, Im retire, nowhere to hurry and just want to fulfil a boyhood dream of sailing my own boat. I've dreamt of doing so most of my life, what I didn't know was how expensive it would be, how many things can go wrong and how helpful people on this forum would be.
 

Sea Hustler

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Laminar Flow did a whole series of posts on rudder and deadwood improvement.

I bought £250s worth of builders foam, fibre and epoxy and I followed his advice (much fibre and foam left over). Took only 4 separate days in the dog days of february when resin took 2 days to harden. Really really easy, one simply fill in the gaps and add a bit

Autopilot doesnt get confused and correct 340 degrees instead of 20. Weather helm almost unnoticeable but still there (lee helm is dangerous). Turns better - still not a racing yacht mind you
All beyond me Im afraid, laminar flow, didn't Enya have a number one hit with that song some years ago
 
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