Ok I should know but I don't so asking for advice

[KevinV]

You have my sympathy, I've ended up in this situation in both dinghies and yachts - always when overpowered (too much sail up). On top of the boat not doing what you expected you had the added stress of seasick and unhappy crew - not fun.

The boat may inherently not like tacking, but it sounds to me like you have a bit of mucking about with the sails to try first. I'd suggest next time trying to tack in lighter wind and particularly lighter seas - run the engine slowly just to keep the boat moving. Next time try it with the engine in neutral, ready to use if you need it. Without the stress and sickness you'll soon figure it out.

My own move from dinghies to yachts also involved learning that yachts turn slower - obvious, but trying to turn too fast just stalls the rudder and stops the boat, at which point it just won't turn. Your boat has bulk, therefore momentum - use it.

If it really won't tack you can learn to gybe it safely, but from your own words I don't think your skill level is anywhere near there yet.

 

[westernman]

My own move from dinghies to yachts also involved learning that yachts turn slower - obvious, but trying to turn too fast just stalls the rudder and stops the boat, at which point it just won't turn. Your boat has bulk, therefore momentum - use it.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Good tail.. I have a motor sailer now which is a bit sluggish, boat speed is all important, lay off the wind a bit then hard over back the geny so it pulls her through. But if it doesn't I always say it's a motor sailer give it a blast. What the he'll my Dad won't see.

Hi Billyfish,
Thanks for that, Im pleased to say that is exactly what I did and of course it came round good as gold. Im getting the impression a lot of people are of the view I should use the iron donkey a lot more than I do. Best thing is that if you and others think its ok then I did the right thing in using it.
Cheers

 

[Bouba]

Ok, I should know but I don't and there is a good reason why, which is because I don't know.

The story so far; so I learnt to sail about 55 years ago, or to be more accurate, I did a weekend sailing course on Lake Bala in Wales on an outward bound course sailing a Mirror dinghy. If I say so myself, that weekend was one of the most formative few days of my entire childhood and stirred something in me that I remembered for the next 55 years as I did the work, marry, father , divorce, marry again, work, retire thing. During that time I also served at sea for a couple of years, did a fair bit of Kayaking and raced power boats at National level. So it made perfect sense to me to buy my first proper sail boat when I retired last year.

She is a 24ft 50/50 motor sailer, built 1968, a bit scruffy but I will get to the pretty stuff later, sleeps 6 (yeah right, may sleep 6 but living aboard, no way) still she weighs in at about 3 1/2 tons, draws 2' 6" with encapsulated bilge keels and has a hull speed of 6 knots according to the stats I've been able to find. Roller furling on both genoa and main and would give any America's Cup Race Team a good run for their money, before I awake from my dream and realised that the only foiling that was going on here was in the galley.

I've spent the past 18 months returning her to a seagoing condition after her previous owners turned her into a floating apartment complete with 13 amp ring main, solid fuel stove where the flue came straight out of the starboard deck right in line with the jib car and more Hammerite paint on all the moving parts of the deck fittings than you could shake a nothing works now boat hook at. Eventual I got her ready for sea and recently moved her under diesel wind from Essex to Chichester where I have been going out in her as much as possible to relearn any slight sailing skills I may have retained and highlight the many jobs I still have to do to make both her and I ready for the open ocean - well cruising the south Coast to be more accurate.

So here it is, this weekend I wanted to get her out to sea and hoist the sails to see if I could improve on the 1.5 knots I had previously achieved under sail (in very very light air I may add) and figure out how to trim the sails etc. So armed with my trusted diagrams about close hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach and all points south I managed to get her up to 4.9 knots which is 1 knot and a pip off her hull speed. This was in a force 4/5 and I may add some interestingly swelly swells. So as my Mrs 1st Mate said between hurling her breakfast all over the cockpit sole and muttering things like "bloody )(**&^ what's wrong with a solid surface that doesn't rock about the whole damn time and -huwwwweeeee "oh look there's my breakfast again", where I don't have to look at the sausage sandwich I eat a few hours ago again. Then came my problem, after sailing close hauled, backing off to a close reach and then a beam reach, where I achieved my hitherto unimagined speed of 4.9 knots (I previously held the class water speed record whilst racing the power boat of 81.4 mh and also won the Scottish National Championship) But this was 4.9knots using nothing but the wind instead of a 600 horsepower Mercury racing engine turning a prop at stupid revolutions per minute, that was so sharp you would cut you finger off if you were careless enough to slide it down the leading edge, I thought if I ever wanted Mrs 1st Mate to stand on deck doing an impression of Simon Le Bon and Duran Duran singing Rio, I had best turn around and head back to the flat waters of Chichester Harbour.

This is where Rod Stewart and I had a slight disagreement, you see whereas he "was sailing, he was sailing cross the waters, cross the sea" I wasn't. Well to be precise, I was, but not in the direction Mrs 1st Mate wanted me to be. And this is where I need some friendly advice, note I said friendly because there will be a multitude of detractors who will say "listen to your wife, sell it and buy a camper van" So there I am, charging along at breakneck speed, so fast the paint is being stripped from the hull as we leap from crest to crest, assorted molluscs that had clung like limpets (they were actually limpets I think) to the antifouling were dying because we are out of water for so long, wind in my bald head, spray flying so thick it tasted like a salt water smoothie and now I had to turn. So wind is currently on my starboard quarter, main is sheeted in so boom is over the port quarter, Genoa is trimmed so widest part of the sail is just on the rail and I turn to starboard. Wheel to starboard and she begins to come round, I get far enough round so that we are pretty much broadside onto the wind and she stops turning, I release the loaded genoa sheet and prepare to haul in the lazy sheet once her head comes through the wind. but short of letting the entire length run through the block and fly free,she just stops turning. I can see that the wind is now blowing side on straight into the genoa preventing the bow from coming any further into the wind and no chance of going across it and despite having the helm (wheel} hard over, she just will not come round any farther. So I rinse and repeat by falling off the wind and regaining some speed, same thing, every time I get broadside to the wind, the genoa fills and she wont come round any further, She bloody well does when I turn on the engine and drive her through the wind but strangely I think thats call motoring not sailing.

So what am I doing wrong, I know I'm doing something wrong but as a 70 year old who learnt to sail in a little mirror dinghy over half a century ago, my memory isn't that good, or they didn't teach us that bit on Lake Bala, so I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here. YES I KNOW, go and take a sailing course, but I have sunk virtually every penny I have into this project and I simply cannot afford to do that even though I know it would be super useful, would remove the need for me to embarrass myself by posting this on the YBW forum and avoid any chance of some young kid who has been sailing since he was three, from falling overboard laughing at my pathetic attempts to sail back to my home port. And beside, If I did that it would mean those of you who are going to say, "go and take a sailing course " would not have anything to write about now would you. So its life jack on, life buoy fitted, life sling fitted, radio course done and radio to hand along with grab bag, dinghy towed behind and a few choice words to Poseidon before casting off and hope for the best while learning as you go.

As I said, it would be most helpful if people could not laugh too loudly, but rather offer simple advice as I intend to sail down to Cornwall this summer and that will be rather difficult if a can't turn Westward from Chichester as I will have to amend my destination to wherever Eastward takes me.

Be nice, I know Im setting myself up for a real roasting here but hey ho, go for it if you want, Im old enough and ugly enough to take it but you will get some back believe me.

Sea Hustler...great tale....but you raced power boats at a national level....motorboats are your natural home....come over to the Motorboat sub-forum, make your wife happy

 

[MisterBaxter]

It might be worth getting some sea-room and sailing in very big circles for a while, getting a feeling for how the boat likes the sails to be set for best speed and helm balance on each point of sail.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Thanks,
Got to be honest, I think I may have tried to turn too fast, contrary to what many have said on here, she is very responsive when using the iron wind (except in reverse then she is an absolute cow, talk about prop walk, she runs and not in the direction I want her to go). I'm getting the idea that I need to begin my turns more slowly and then tighten up as she nears head to wind and use her bulk to bring her through it as you say.

Thanks

 

[Sea Hustler]

Sea Hustler...great tale....but you raced power boats at a national level....motorboats are your natural home....come over to the Motorboat sub-forum, make your wife happy

Have to be honest,

The thought of opening a few seacocks and turning a key is rather appealing but Im a pensioner and running costs are a big thing. even if its slow (I have nowhere to be in a hurry) it's nonetheless free to use nature's wind machine rather than Mr Diesel's iron donkey, hence the choice of a motorsailer.

Get thee behind me Satan LOL

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Nice story, I think it will come round if you back the jib, but as Tranona says, boat details required. I have a Mascot 28 which sails really well, so there are motor sailers of varying sailing abilities. The much smaller ones, don't tend to sail well to windward.

As above, don't let the Genoa fly until the head is through the wind; the pressure on the back of the sail will then push the head round. Only let the sheet go when the head is through the wind.

 

[jwilson]

You may have found this already but tacking from a broad reach is much more difficult than from a just-off close-hauled angle. And a steady turn - don't slam the helm right over. Most boats (not all though) can with practice be persuaded to tack without the use of the engine.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Some of these old motor sailors will not tack in certain conditions. All made worse by old sails & poorly set up rig etc. You are meant to use the engine. There have been tales of similar woe on the forum in the past. Unfortunately, people buy these old dogs without researching, or having a clue how bad they are. They are cheap (to buy) for a reason.

Hiya Again,

Not quite true, I did deliberately choose to buy a motor sailer precisely because I did not want something that I could not handle, I look at some of these yachts and the enormous height of the mast and the resultant sail area scares the beJesus outta me.

Im fortunate that she has brand new sails (previous owners lost the originals, don't ask) As for the rig set up, as I explained to another who replied, all I know is that the floaty bit is at the bottom, on top of the runny stuff. The stick thing pokes up from the deck and is held up by the long wirey things and the stingy things (all new running rigging) are used to pull the big white flappy things in and out. I would have no more idea of how to check the rig set up than I would have to turn a stubby old motorsailer across the wind, errrrrr

As I explained ot the other poster, I have noticed that the forestay, backstay and cap shrouds are all fairly tight while the inner shrouds are a little less so. Dont know what that means but attached to my anchor chain is a good luck charm pleading with Poseidon not to let it all come crashing down onto the deck anytime soon.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Bit harsh don't you think ??

I have a 25ft Motor Sailer ... Sunrider 25. She will tack - even the one OP has attempted and failed ... BUT ... the boat is designed to have the engine and sails working together. OP has to accept that engine will be used a lot of the time when out there .... running before the wind ... engine can be off ... beam reach ... engine can be off ... but once wind comes fwd of the beam - it usually means engine on to make good speed.

The problem OP has met ... even if you let genny fly - that genny will still hold the bow as she turns up ... basically 'in irons' ... so what to do ? Main should assist rudder (usually Motor sailer rudders are smaller - yes true - than out and out sailers - because they are designed to also work with prop wash ...)
If various sheeting angles of main / genny do not solve it ... then roll the genny in and use main / rudder to force her round ... engine if needed. Its no good trying to back the genny - as OP has not reached the point where genny would do it .. he'd in fact make it even harder to complete the tack.

Its possible that reducing the genny to small enough that it could be flattened along the centreline may help ... but then that will depend on the sheeting arrangements ... and the cut of the sail - especially being a furler.

My SR25 spends about 50% of her sail time with engine assisting ... it doesn't need much throttle ... so I suggest that OP goes out and experiments with throttle settings to find the sweet spot that engine is just helping ... mine is about 25 - 30% throttle ... she will maintain 5kts STW all day long ... tack .. gybe ...
I can actually as long as weather does not turn foul - set an ETA at destination and be quietly confident to meet that ETA ... The beauty of Motor Sailers !! I can get there before the Pub shuts !!

You have hit the nail on the head and described my situation exactly. Mine is a Husky 24 Hustler, built 1968, has a BMC donkey that is of the 'hit it with a hammer generation' and cabinetry that few modern boats can only dream of. She lacks a few mod cons and was built in the day when the number of berths was more important than usable living space. She sleeps 6 but where they would all be during the day is another question. She is a 50 /50 motorsailer having the same (reported) hull speed under sail and while using Mr Diesel's phantasmagorical combustion devise.

I'm not sure my rudder is that small being a flat rectangular slab reminiscent of a barn door, measuring about 2ft by 2ft 6" and when going forward she is very responsive to the helm, In reverse is a different matter altogether,made worse I think by her being over propped, everything points to that being the case: , engine won't reach max revs while in gear, significant kick when props initially bites, engine runs hotter if I push just a little too much throttle on and when in reverse its strap yourself in for the wildest ride at the fairground today. If Usain Bolt were to have a 10 second head start on her, as soon as I engage reverse, she is off, anywhere she wants to go at a speed where reality becomes a blur and would soon overhaul him and leave him in her wake. I have still to compute why all the stuff I have learnt about prop walk can be resolved by following 'these simple steps' yet when Im reversing out of a berth in a marina with that very expensive looking boat moored across from me, everything I do, and nothing I do has any bearing whatsoever on where she decides she will go today.

Still these are the pleasures I signed up for when I embarked on this adventure and with your guys help and a significant amount of sticky plaster and string, Im slowly getting to grips with styff.

Thanks

 

[Sea Hustler]

Reality
In a few words that you have taken several paragraphs to repeat.
You said:-
Start the b..y engine
I just got there before you

I did it worked

 

[Sea Hustler]

A practical solution might be to move the mast - you don’t say model of you new found toy in what is otherwise a florid description but maybe revealing the make might elicit helpful advice from fellow suffers -seems to me trading in might not be far off though?

I did think of moving it to a storage facility and taking the sailer out of Motorsailer but then I thought nah, let's stick with the plan and conquer this thing.

She is a Husky 24 Hustler, 24ft LOA, 8'6" beam, 2'6" draft with twin encapsulated bilge keels, a gross Tonnage of about 5 tons. Doesn't seem to be a very common example of the breed though we did bump into a guy at the weekend who recognised her for what se was and thought for a moment she may have been his Dad's old boat that he remembered sailing in when he was a kid. After much emotional visiting down below to rekindle his memories it turned out not to be the one but nonetheless, the sight of her afloat did stir his childhood memories so he spent an hour or so regaling us about his days spent at sea with his late father (one good deed for the day, Check)

I have no plans to trade her in, rather a long term Poseidon willing, to remodel her internally and turn a crowded 6 berth vessel into a more commodious 2 berth.
Thanks

 

[Sea Hustler]

I fear if you want to enjoy "sailing" then buying an old tired "motor sailor" might not have been the right choice of boat.

But most of it is down to experience. I too remember on my first trip out in a blow I could not get my little ship to tack, it just about got into irons then drifted back the way it came from. Now I would do that without even thinking about it and wonder "how could you get it wrong?"

With a more modern sailing boat you could have been like us recently, sailing at 6.3 knots (slightly above theoretical hull speed) in just 12 knots of wind.

Every boat is individual. I learned that is is possible to stall a rudder sailing someone else's boat. I just could not work out why the boat was not turning and turning the rudder even further had no effect. "Oh you have stalled the rudder, turn it back somewhat"

I get what you are saying but as Im retired and have no place to be in a hurry, Im not too fussed about sparkling performance,in truth I bought her precisely because she was not too good at either sailing or motoring. The motoring I can handle having spent some years racing rather fast power boats and the sailing I actually went for something with a very short sticky up thing, working on the principle that the shorter to pole, the less sail area she would have and the more manageable she would be for a novice like me. The thought of the power generated by some of the faster sleeker sailboats I have seen scares me to death so Im OK with her limitations, they match mine perfectly. What I wasn't expecting was that this collection of GRP, wood and wires would have ideas above her station and decide that she would ignore my commands and throw her toys over the railings when I told her to do certain things, like turn.
The impression I am gaining from the many helpful posts in reply to my question is that 'boats do that' and I should not give myself too much of a hard time when things don't go to plan

thanks anyway

 

[Sea Hustler]

A good story and I relate to your issues. With any sailing boat it takes time to learn and practice so that the full spectrum of the boat's peculiarities are understood. Twin keels, shallow draft, modest sail area and heavy displacement all bring their own challenges.

The label motorsailer is often applied to slower, heavier, cruising oriented boats. In many cases these boats will sail well, especially in stronger winds. But they share a poorer windward performance particularily tacking to windward.

After several years with a motorsailer I have learnt that my particular boat (long keel, ketch, roller main etc) is not at its best tacking or going close hauled in under 10 knts of wind. But she holds her own under sail in F3 and above with similar size cruising yachts. The reassurance of a comfortable boat and large engine offset the sluggish windward performance.
View attachment 178180
So my suggestion is as others have said to experiment, adjust sails and learn what works and doesn't work for your boat in a range of wind and sea conditions. Go for a sail with someone else on their boat - you will pick up lots of tips. Then you can develop understanding of what will be a pleasant sail versus what will be a battle. Use the engine or adjust your plans to reduce ordeals. A lot of this is not about the boat but understanding the sea state and wind forecast.

When others are involved, especially my wife, then I try hard to avoid ordeals!

Thanks, Most important lesson I have learnt thus far is that above all else, make sure Mrs 1st Mate is happy. Just because "I just want to sail out into this fairly heavy sea to play with various points of sail and different trims while you puke you ring up" was a wee bit of a mistake. For the time I was able to concentrate on sail trim, headings and points to windward without needing to avoid the marlin spikes being hurled across the deck at my head I was able to learn quite a bit about what she would and wouldn't do (the boat, not the1st mate) As a consequence of her very shallow draft she makes about as much leeway as she does headway but Im getting used to that and just adjust my COG to compensate for that. I am beginning to realise its OK to use the engine more, even on tickover just to help point her to windward and perhaps make the turns required. Its all a learning curve and the many helpful replies I have received have made me realise Im not completely stupid and that others have actually experienced precisely the problems I have.
Thanks

 

[Sea Hustler]

Nice story, I think it will come round if you back the jib, but as Tranona says, boat details required. I have a Mascot 28 which sails really well, so there are motor sailers of varying sailing abilities. The much smaller ones, don't tend to sail well to windward.

She is a Husky 24 Hustler, 24 ft LOA, 8'6" beam,2'6" draft. gross tonnage about 5 Tons with a 1500 BMC Captain Diesel engine. I bought her precisely because her abilities matched mine as we are both pretty useless at sailing and the thought of trying to learn the ropes on something way too powerful for my novice standing was not a prospect I fancied at all. As I have said elsewhere, her shallow draft means she makes about as much leeway as she does headway but I can cope with that, I know long keels are notorious to tun in confined spaces like marinas but sometimes I wish she wasn't so good at going sideways when in reverse.I have tried all the tricks others say about prop walk but even the Harbour Master at her old berth was surprised at just how well she didn't do what the helm said she should.
Still I will get used to her someday.
thanks.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Post#5 has most of it covered. The key is to use the engine to overcome the basic characteristics of the design from a sailing point of view - inefficient underwater shape and lack of sail area in relation to displacement. Motorsailers are often described as 50/50 power/sail and the speed you obtained under sail suggests your boat is maybe a 60/40 and the sails are there to assist the engine rather than the other way around. Some details of the boat would help as there may be ways to improve it.

So many helpful responses that Im not sure if I replied to you,

I draw the 50/50 designating from the hull speed quoted of about 6 knots under both sail and power. there is no denying she does not have a vast amount of sail area, the genny comes aft to about midway between the mast and midships, while the boom ends just inboard of the aft rail. What I wouldn't give for self tailing winches but then she is old and those were just a twinkle in the eye of Mr Lewmar when she was built. One issue I do have is that the furling line to the forestay is constantly getting caught up in the port jib sheet and Im trying to find a fix to keep that out of the way while leaving it free to be used in a hurry if I need it.
From the many posts in reply to my question, I am coming to the conclusion that I need to combine the engine and sails far more than I have been and not look so much for seperate use of the two.
Thanks anyway

 

[Sea Hustler]

Don't try to tack too quickly.

In my 34 ton pilot cutter, to tack, I first crack off the wind slightly, then I start the tack fairly slowly and gently, gradually putting on more rudder as she slows down and gets closer to pointing dead into the wind. Of course once you are through the eye of the wind, you can let a foresail back to help your around. But first you need to get through the eye.

When I first got the boat, I could not get it to tack either...... I was trying too fast and putting on too much rudder too quickly.

Also, at the other far extreme end of the scale in my very lightweight Hobie Cat FX One which was cat rigged (just a main), the same thing applied.
If I tried to tack quickly I would get stuck in irons. I needed almost the exact same technique as on my 34 ton pilot cutter.

Of all the helpful replies I have received yours stikes a real chord, Looking back on events, I do now think I was perhaps trying to turn too quickly. Adopting the idea that a dingy style turn would get her head through the wind quicker proved not to be the case and so I think I will try your suggestion of an exponential application of the rudder or to put it more simply, stop trying to turn the thing on a sixpence,it don't like it.
Thanks

 

[Sea Hustler]

It might be worth getting some sea-room and sailing in very big circles for a while, getting a feeling for how the boat likes the sails to be set for best speed and helm balance on each point of sail.

Hi, I was sort of doing that, unfortunately, Mrs 1st Mate kept reinventing breakfast all over the cockpit sole and was shall we say not amused. Once I had turned for home, she was like a six year old on a long car journey, "are we there yet" every two minutes, bless her.
Thanks

 

[Sea Hustler]

You may have found this already but tacking from a broad reach is much more difficult than from a just-off close-hauled angle. And a steady turn - don't slam the helm right over. Most boats (not all though) can with practice be persuaded to tack without the use of the engine.

Hi,
This seems to be a popular theme amongst those that have replied, I am pretty sure I was trying to do more of a dinghy style turn thinking that would get her head through the wind more easily when in fact I think I was losing too much speed as a result and and ending up stalling the turn and having to drop off the wind every time. I shall certainly be trying a more measured turn to try and get her head closer to the wind before actually attempting to get her to cross it.
Thanks