Ok I should know but I don't so asking for advice

[ashtead]

That looks a lovely boat for Chi Harbour,going up Thorney channel . Seems a motor over to ryde harbour with mainsail up or a trip up medina . Be bold and venture up fishbourne creek -maybe an auxiliary outboard though in case of diesel failure ? Do visit Gosport and ask for help in leaving if reversing or a hammerhead ? We used to warp a centaur round to avoid reversing and it was a revelation going astern in a fin keel Bavaria years later but I would not go up to Prinstead in a Bavaria and pick up a buoy unlike your new craft.

 

[Refueler]

That looks a lovely boat for Chi Harbour,going up Thorney channel . Seems a motor over to ryde harbour with mainsail up or a trip up medina . Be bold and venture up fishbourne creek -maybe an auxiliary outboard though in case of diesel failure ? Do visit Gosport and ask for help in leaving if reversing or a hammerhead ? We used to warp a centaur round to avoid reversing and it was a revelation going astern in a fin keel Bavaria years later but I would not go up to Prinstead in a Bavaria and pick up a buoy unlike your new craft.

Now someone is appreciating the boat for what it is ... its for getting there and creek crawling ... .

The places I have explored with my SR25 have been outstandingly good ... places that most other boats apart from dinghys cannot enjoy. When I moved her to Baltics ... sailing in the Stockholm Archipelago - I would use narrow shallow channels that opened up to anchorages etc that the usual crowd had no hope of getting through.

Here I am following pals Alacrity in the Swedish islands :

Here on another cruise in the Archi .... used a channel to avoid going outside of islands ... big surprise for couple sitting on their decking as we chugged past !!

Another time - we knew that Arholma Guest Hbr would be popular and we could see a bunch of boats heading up that way - following the recc'd route ... OK - Steve and I looked at each other ... quick squint at the chart ... that'll do nicely ... left hand down - in we went to a channel ..... all good ... then Steve up on bow pointed at rocks .. which became more numerous until we could feel the keels touching and sliding over ... too late now - its all or nothing ... no tides here. Steve on bow - pointing port or stbd ... boat lifting one keel - then other as she rode the bottom - and then after about 50m - she was back in deeper water and we came round into the small harbour ... anchored waiting a slot on the BBQ pontoon ... the other bigger boats appearing hour or so after us ...

In the Finnish Alands Isles ... we could take southern routes through the islands that deeper fin keel boats dare not even try ... avoiding the long trek round via the north from Mariehamn.

 

[westernman]

Strangely I find going in quite easy, because I go in forwards, its the reversing out I don't like co then I have to contend with her mad behaviour in reverse. Its actually like dealing with a small child who just stands there saying "shan't, you can't make me".
I don't sail at night, too many fishing nets and unmarked pots for my liking. besides although have a Mrs 1st mate, in reality, Im really single handed and night passages would be too many hours at the helm to be safe.

I always have to reverse in. Otherwise I am 20ft form the shore thanks to the prodder at the front.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Sorry not much patience to read all the replies. However as said backing the jib is the trick. I use this when departing swing mooring. ie wait till the boat swings into the wind. Then pull in the jib tight away from the direction you want to go. The wind hitting the inclined plane of the sail provides a sideways force top turn the bow. (boat stationary in the water). When tacking I always encourage the crew to hold the jib tight until bow has passed head to wind. (PS "broadside would mean off to the side not the nose). So this is what every one is talking about "backing the jib)
However rudder angle is important. Typically you would never turn the rudder more than 30 degrees. Hard over would be too far. (only useful if you have full water speed) if the boat stops in the water or slows down a lot then centre the rudder. Then observe if the boat starts to go backwards in the water you need opposite rudder. (tricks essential in a small catamaran with no jib to back.)
Other factors that will make tacking difficult is towing a dinghy. Perhaps leave it tied to the mooring as I do. But most important to me is the condition of the bottom regarding fouling. She won't go well and not tacking if bottom is an octopuses garden.
Anyway important thing is to enjoy the learning. re spouse and seasickness. The simple answer is to get her to helm the boat. It will be vital to get her on side with sailing. ol'will

Hi William,

Thanks for the explanation, I will give it a go, although I do tow my dinghy, its an inflatable 2.3 mtr little affair and I don't know if that would create much drag. The bottom is not too bad, unfortunately, when she was launched earlier in the year, the yard where she was on the hard, rang me out of the blue and said "she's in the water" I explained that this was a week before the date I had booked and that I had not anti-fouled her yet, their reasoning was the weather was going to kick up and they wanted to get as many boats in the water as poss before it did. I should have insisted they haul her out again but I have put her on the sand to dry out a couple of times and cleaned her off as best I can which I will keep doing until I haul out again at the end of the year, (can't get right underneath but it will have to do for this year).

Not only is Mrs 1st Mate a victim of wobbly water, but she is also autistic meaning she doesn't do 'quick pull that or aim towards that ' so I am pretty much single handed most of the time, she thinks Im amazing and can do anything though (yeah right) and does my ego wonders and I love her so she's a keeper LOL. As an ex Merchant Seaman I know the importance of doing something rather than head in a bucket wishing you were dead but unfortunately, steering is something we are still working on and she isn't comfortable yet avoiding the RoRo ferry we can vaguely see peeking over the horizon.

I have understood from a number of replies that one mistake I was making was to be turning dinghy style, the general consensus appears to be start the turn slowly then increase the rudder angle as you head up into the wind. from your explanation, I think I get the idea of stalling the rudder, didn't make much sense before but your scenario made sense, so thanks for the advice, its definitely something I will try next time out.
Cheers

 

[Sea Hustler]

That sounds like a "creative" way to finance new sails. I would love to have seen the insurance claim.

All part of the process of creating a floating apartment I think complete with solid fuel stove taking half the heads up, painting anything that turned, moved or wiggled with hammerite till it didnt anymore.
Been a task just turning her back into a boat again, but we did it.

 

[Sea Hustler]

I always have to reverse in. Otherwise I am 20ft form the shore thanks to the prodder at the front.

That's something I am very conscious of, It would be nice to have some dinghy davits, or a bowsprit but as everywhere charges for the thickness of the coats of paint on the transom, Im quite glad she is only 24ft LOA., although just about every marina I've come across so far has a minimum length of 8 mtrs so I could give her an extra coat of paint without incurring any additional Fees.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Think overall ... we have :

Engine on to assist.

Reversing out of spots ? sounds like set up trials of rope use - find the best way to use a rope to restrain or pivot the boat ... the setting up of a rope to help control / turn the boat can make a lot of difference. My 25ft'r sits in my private channel with just under 30ft width ... I have to turn her at times and then its rope work.

Previously when she was in UK - I had to use a line to control her as she moved astern ... sometimes one from stern 1/4 and another from bow ..
If weather was relatively calm - then walking the boat back by hand ...

Yes I do actually resort to bow and stern springs to turn her most times. Luckily my days as a Merchant Seaman working in and out of some of the South Coast's smaller ports, rivers and inlets gave me a good understanding of tethering, I would just like to do it without if I could, until then its lines ashore, and slowly slowly does it.

 

[Sea Hustler]

Its a heavy yacht not a dinghy and with too small and badly designed rudder.

So be patient and dont move jib sheets antil she goes through the wind(back the jib)

See if you can fit bigger rudder which directs the boat before the rudder has turned so much that the rudder stalls

She probably would tack better in strong winds but in light airs and if its not going right - turn on engine

yeah Im getting the feedback that I need to adjust my thinking on the size and weight thing.

Don't Think my rudder is that small, but I do realise I may well have been stalling it trying to turn her too quickly so modify the use of the helm is one definite takeaway.

Too many jobs still to do before departing on 6/8 cruise of the S Coast in July but something I may think about in the future.

Yep, got it about the engine, it was what I did anyway but thought of it as a cop out, now people are telling me its fine, if you need it use it. '

Thanks.

 

[Refueler]

Yes I do actually resort to bow and stern springs to turn her most times. Luckily my days as a Merchant Seaman working in and out of some of the South Coast's smaller ports, rivers and inlets gave me a good understanding of tethering, I would just like to do it without if I could, until then its lines ashore, and slowly slowly does it.

I'm of the opposite stance ... I like to warp instead of faff about with engines etc. As srm and I have noted - these skills are becoming less often seen.
So often seen a boat in silly situation - that a knowledge of warping could have made it so easy and without consequences.

My 25ft motor sailer - Folly Inn pontoons. I'm stbd side alongside pontoon - pointing upstream - engine has failed - tried all sorts - even borrowed full charged battery7 - engine just not turning - she's seized. (Boat had been flooded out few weeks prior).
I have a raft of three large MoBo's just a few feet ahead of me upstream ... and a raft of two large boats astern of me ... I'm basically a 25 ft boat in a 30+ft slot !!
Part genny rolled out .. one spring line from stern to pontoon and doubled back ...

Let go bow lines and Mike gently shoves bow and steps back on ... stays u at bow to fend off the Mobo's if needed.
Bow starts to swing out ... I have tiller locked by the Tiller pilot midships.
As bow swings - I start pulling in that spring line to pull stern fwd t avoid dropping back on aft boats.
Genny starting to fill .... slack sheets so it drives but not fully ... spring line eased as boat starts to move away from pontoon ... as bow exits from behnd the mobo's .. helm part to stbd - sheet in genny ... let go spring line and retrieve line ... boat drops back a touch as she gathers way - helm to stbd counters ...
As she cleared the rafted boats - helm now eased to port and let boat swing to go downstream ... sheet genny ....

We never touched or fended off from any of the boats rafted up astern or ahead ....

As we leave - we hear applause from pontoon ... yes I WAS PROUD of what we had achieved ... could I do it again ?? I hope so !!

I have described this episode and the getting back onto HYCO pontoon in another thread years ago ... but the thing is warping in combo with anchor / sails etc - is a skill that I think many should practice .. you never know when it will be needed.

 

[Refueler]

yeah Im getting the feedback that I need to adjust my thinking on the size and weight thing.

Don't Think my rudder is that small, but I do realise I may well have been stalling it trying to turn her too quickly so modify the use of the helm is one definite takeaway.

Too many jobs still to do before departing on 6/8 cruise of the S Coast in July but something I may think about in the future.

Yep, got it about the engine, it was what I did anyway but thought of it as a cop out, now people are telling me its fine, if you need it use it. '

Thanks.

With great respect - but ignore the comments about rudder and making it bigger ... waste of time ... the trick is to learn what you have.

If you made your rudder bigger - you would only increase 1. the stress and strain on its fittings .. 2. make it harder to use .... Why ? Its not a balanced or semi balanced rudder like most sailboats .. its a slab rudder hinged at front edge.

 

[Sea Hustler]

That looks a lovely boat for Chi Harbour,going up Thorney channel . Seems a motor over to ryde harbour with mainsail up or a trip up medina . Be bold and venture up fishbourne creek -maybe an auxiliary outboard though in case of diesel failure ? Do visit Gosport and ask for help in leaving if reversing or a hammerhead ? We used to warp a centaur round to avoid reversing and it was a revelation going astern in a fin keel Bavaria years later but I would not go up to Prinstead in a Bavaria and pick up a buoy unlike your new craft.

Ah now we come to another issue I have posted on this forum about,

Not only am I a novice sailor but a colourblind one as well, trying to pick a green lateral buoy out when backed by a green field or a wood, or a red can from the surrounding red roof tiles behind it is sometimes a bit of a problem. So on my first trip up to her new mooring in the Prinsted Channel I did lose the channel markers and radioed someone (wont say who) for some guidance, I was told "come straight through the moorings and you will see our marked channel" You clearly know Chichester harbour so if I say there was a long low single story black building that looked like it may be made of wood on my port side and a whole bunch of boats moored on my starboard with more dinghys floating about than I was comfortable with, you may know where I was. If so, you will also know what sticks out into the channel right there and which luckily for me (or unluckily, depending on your point of view) was covered by water as I arrived at about 5 knots. At the very last moment, and I do mean the very last moment, we spotted it too late to do anything but hope and pray we could get over it. There was a murmur of complaint from the skeg and a sudden upward motion of the stern as we scraped over it but fortunately there was just about enough water for us scuttle across before plopping down into deeper water on the other side. I KNOW IT'S THERE NOW and that wont happen again but it would have been ironic if after sailing her 150 miles from where she had been kept for over 20 years, I had sunk her within 200 yards of her new berth.

Drawing only 2' 6" Im hoping to explore many of the channels in and around CH and have already spent the night on the hook at East Head and a Mooring at HIYC and Thornham. 1st LW at Thornham she was sitting pretty level, woke up the next morning on a 40 degree angle with the boat sitting nicely in one of the many small channels running through the mud with 1st Mate complaining she was falling out of bed.
I have a Seagull outboard (like things you can hit with a hammer when they dont work) but haven't got the bracket in place on the railing yet so it's in the aft cabin waiting till that job moves to the top of the list.

 

[Sea Hustler]

I'm of the opposite stance ... I like to warp instead of faff about with engines etc. As srm and I have noted - these skills are becoming less often seen.
So often seen a boat in silly situation - that a knowledge of warping could have made it so easy and without consequences.

My 25ft motor sailer - Folly Inn pontoons. I'm stbd side alongside pontoon - pointing upstream - engine has failed - tried all sorts - even borrowed full charged battery7 - engine just not turning - she's seized. (Boat had been flooded out few weeks prior).
I have a raft of three large MoBo's just a few feet ahead of me upstream ... and a raft of two large boats astern of me ... I'm basically a 25 ft boat in a 30+ft slot !!
Part genny rolled out .. one spring line from stern to pontoon and doubled back ...

Let go bow lines and Mike gently shoves bow and steps back on ... stays u at bow to fend off the Mobo's if needed.
Bow starts to swing out ... I have tiller locked by the Tiller pilot midships.
As bow swings - I start pulling in that spring line to pull stern fwd t avoid dropping back on aft boats.
Genny starting to fill .... slack sheets so it drives but not fully ... spring line eased as boat starts to move away from pontoon ... as bow exits from behnd the mobo's .. helm part to stbd - sheet in genny ... let go spring line and retrieve line ... boat drops back a touch as she gathers way - helm to stbd counters ...
As she cleared the rafted boats - helm now eased to port and let boat swing to go downstream ... sheet genny ....

We never touched or fended off from any of the boats rafted up astern or ahead ....

As we leave - we hear applause from pontoon ... yes I WAS PROUD of what we had achieved ... could I do it again ?? I hope so !!

I have described this episode and the getting back onto HYCO pontoon in another thread years ago ... but the thing is warping in combo with anchor / sails etc - is a skill that I think many should practice .. you never know when it will be needed.

Wanna Job!!!!!!

 

[Sea Hustler]

I have a friend who helped me move her down from Essex, He has a horrible little plastic day boat with a 40 hp outboard strapped to the transom, which he thinks is the QE 2, I wouldn't go beyond the puddle in the lane with it but he thinks he can circumnavigate the UK in it. I was amazed at how he made my boat secure at the various marinas we stopped at on the way round. Mate, she is a 24ft 3 ton Motorsailer, not a Nimitz Class Aircraft carrier, once round the cleat, a couple of 8's round the horns and cleat it off, that's it. Im OK with letting everything go except an aft spring - round the cleat and looped back to the boat, come astern against it, let the bow swing out then let go the spring and pull it inboard. but I still want to "use the propwalk " as everyone keeps telling me.

trouble is I wish they would tell the boat because it dont want to play.

 

[westernman]

With great respect - but ignore the comments about rudder and making it bigger ... waste of time ... the trick is to learn what you have.

If you made your rudder bigger - you would only increase 1. the stress and strain on its fittings .. 2. make it harder to use .... Why ? Its not a balanced or semi balanced rudder like most sailboats .. its a slab rudder hinged at front edge.

I have heard that said about a certain piece of anatomy...

 

[Refueler]

Wanna Job!!!!!!

I have enough to do now !! I have 5 boats and 3 dinghys .... plus my real job !!

 

[Sea Hustler]

I have heard that said about a certain piece of anatomy...

With great respect - but ignore the comments about rudder and making it bigger ... waste of time ... the trick is to learn what you have.

If you made your rudder bigger - you would only increase 1. the stress and strain on its fittings .. 2. make it harder to use .... Why ? Its not a balanced or semi balanced rudder like most sailboats .. its a slab rudder hinged at front edge.

Tend to agree and with equal respect, , I think to even attempt such a thing would require major surgery to the back end and as someone that has been around cars all my life, I know that Sir Arnold Constantine Issigonis spent at least the weekend, maybe even into Monday morning, pondering the braking system of a funny little car he was designing, in fact it was so small it picked up an equally silly name of The Mini, daft idea really and one that I doubt would really catch on but there you go. Im equally sure that Mr C Burnard, son of Alan Burnard, of Fairy Fisherman fame gave at least an equal amount of consideration, if not more, to the size and shape of the rudder on his new boat to be called a Husky 24. He didn't know it at at the time but he would later develop a 6 berth version with a centre cockpit and call it The Husky 24 Hustler. Strange though it may seem, he would also have been totally unaware that I would one day buy a very old one of his boats (54 years old to be precise) and that I would be having a conversation via the electronical computerised wonderweb discussing the possibilities of chucking his design in the bin and bolting a barn door onto the back of his latest design instead. I think he might be quite upset if he knew so in deference to his superior boat designing skills, I'll leave things as they are I think.

 

[Sea Hustler]

I have enough to do now !! I have 5 boats and 3 dinghys .... plus my real job !!

Oh which sweetie shall I pick from the jar today,

 

[Refueler]

Oh which sweetie shall I pick from the jar today,

I've loved boating since I was first able to walk ... was initiated at 5yrs old in an Enterprise dinghy ... off Hill Head beach ...

You've actually got close to why the different boats ...

The Progress 4 - ex Soviet Speedboat was one of 2 I rescued from being scrapped for the aluminium - yes aluminium ... it is riveted aluminium hull / deck. One I eventually sold and is in use in Jurmala near Riga. It provides fishing platform and able to go into little feeder streams etc on the river I live on the bank of.
The Kormoran - small weekender sail cabin job is same size as the speedboat - with twin swing keels giving her draft from 20cms to 1.2m ... giving me a sail boat to also go literally anywhere on the river.
OK - the Sunrider 25 - built in Poole UK in about 1973 ... built like a tank ... bilge keel on 1m draft - gives me ability to cruise the deep river (previously she could be seen sailing around Baltic until I bought the 38ft'r). Have spent various weekends nosed up onto small islands upriver .. BBQ etc.
Conqubin 38CR ... decided that it was time for me to get back into racing .. my last race having won the Baltic Regatta in 2003 ... this boat will not come up river to my home mooring as there are 3 bridges and she's fin keel - too deep to enter my private mooring channel.
The Primor 24 Mobo - was a purchase that I had been mulling over having a Mobo for the river for some time ... the Progress 4 is good - but I wanted something a little more 'comfortable' and with reasonable cabin.

Pretty well covers most I reckon !!

 

[Sea Hustler]

I've loved boating since I was first able to walk ... was initiated at 5yrs old in an Enterprise dinghy ... off Hill Head beach ...

You've actually got close to why the different boats ...

The Progress 4 - ex Soviet Speedboat was one of 2 I rescued from being scrapped for the aluminium - yes aluminium ... it is riveted aluminium hull / deck. One I eventually sold and is in use in Jurmala near Riga. It provides fishing platform and able to go into little feeder streams etc on the river I live on the bank of.
The Kormoran - small weekender sail cabin job is same size as the speedboat - with twin swing keels giving her draft from 20cms to 1.2m ... giving me a sail boat to also go literally anywhere on the river.
OK - the Sunrider 25 - built in Poole UK in about 1973 ... built like a tank ... bilge keel on 1m draft - gives me ability to cruise the deep river (previously she could be seen sailing around Baltic until I bought the 38ft'r). Have spent various weekends nosed up onto small islands upriver .. BBQ etc.
Conqubin 38CR ... decided that it was time for me to get back into racing .. my last race having won the Baltic Regatta in 2003 ... this boat will not come up river to my home mooring as there are 3 bridges and she's fin keel - too deep to enter my private mooring channel.
The Primor 24 Mobo - was a purchase that I had been mulling over having a Mobo for the river for some time ... the Progress 4 is good - but I wanted something a little more 'comfortable' and with reasonable cabin.

Pretty well covers most I reckon !!

So not just a random selection of toys but each for specific purpose, nice, I chose mine because it struck me as being pretty useless as either a sail boat of Motor boat which I though matched my ability perfectly.

 

[William_H]

Just to explain to OP re rudder /tiller angle going in to the tack. It is a bit like an aeroplane wing the angle of attack with water (air) speed should be optimal for max lift (turning force from rudder) . Too much and it will tend to stall. ie flow becomes confused. Too little angle of attack and you get less lift as you might hope for. So a little rudder to start the turn then as the stern moves sideways the angle of arrival of the water to the rudder changes to reduce angle of attack. So you can then increase the tiller angle to take advantage.
On my little boat a bit like a dinghy (deep fin keel deep rudder) it can turn rapidly such that stern moves sideways quite fast so rudder can be swung more.
Re yopur rudder size and shape. Yes I imagine it could be improved a lot. However probably constraints like keel in front of rudder and max draft of rudder dictate what you have.
Balance of rudder is area of rudder forward of the shaft such that in turning the water pressure on front of rudder (the balance area) tends to aid the tiller turning force.
A high aspect rudder is shorter from front to back (chord) but deeper to get area. More efficient and less tiller load. But again only if it will fit on the boat. I have increased the depth of my rudder (GRP) and increased area forward of pintles. (shaft) for a lot more power of rudder. (needed in my case with shy spinnaker and heeling boat.) Not your problem.
But in the end just try to manage what you have and most importantly ENJOY. ol'will