What is the perfect watch system?

[prv]

If I had three watchmen whilst sailing I would keep the 4 on, 8 off think.

I think that would be my starting point too.

When I used to do square rig voyages the ship's officers did standard Merchant watches, the crew did the same periods but split the 1600-2000 into two dogs so that we rotated. I tended to be a bit tired on the second day of a voyage while adjusting, but after that felt perfectly rested and able to carry on indefinitely. We'd have day work (or instruction, or some other activity) in the mornings, afternoons were normally (but not always) quieter so that off-watch crew could sleep if they wished. I think most didn't need to, most of the time.

When it comes to yachts I'm a coastal sailor, longest passage I've done was only two long days and one night. So I don't have any experience of trying continuous four-hour 3-way watches with very small crews, but I don't see why it should be significantly different. When I sailed as Watch Leader, my night watches on the ship required standing on the open bridge for the full four hours (unless we had to do a sail change, which was relatively rare). I used to look forward to the mid-watch fire-round as a chance to stretch my legs and have a pee . If anything, a yacht's cockpit is more comfortable with seats, a sprayhood if necessary, the ability in most waters to go below for a bit and make a cup of tea, etc. I am assuming some form of self-steering, of course - I wouldn't deliberately set off on an overnight passage without it, and for ocean work would want a backup.

Patterns involving "sleep" periods of only two or three hours sound terrible to me.

Pete

 

[duncan99210]

When it's just the two of us, we've found that three on, three off works. During the night, we stick to it religiously. Daylight hours are more flexible with one often standing longer watches to allow a longer sleep. Domestic duties shared between us.
On a recent transat, we had three sailing crew plus a non sailing cook (luxury). We didn't run watches from 0800 to 2000 but it was agreed that if the person taking the helm felt too tired to continue then someone would step in. From 2000 to 0800 we did four hour watches, keeping to the same watches throughout the crossing. It worked well with everyone able to get a decent uninterrupted sleep and settled into a pattern.
I spent my career in the military and did a lot of watch standing on operations and exercises. We found that th best system for most people was to stand the same watches rather than rotating through them as is the RN practice. Hence, I found the system we used on the transat to be comfortable and easy to adjust to.

 

[horatio_nelson]

0800 - 1200
1200 - 1600
1600 - 1900
1900 - 2000 everyone up for dinner / chat / briefings etc
2000 - 2300
2300 - 0200
0200 - 0500
0500 - 0800

So you are on the opposite cycle alternating daily. Most of the time we were all on deck or up and about anyway.

That's what we did for the Fastnet and it worked well (for us, on that boat, in that race etc). Crew of six.

I think "it depends" is the answer to the OP query

 

[dunedin]

Surely the ideal depends not just on number of crew but on weather (and perhaps navigational complexity) also.

With warm/dry weather and easy passage making a longer watch gives longer rest between. But when sub 5C and snowing then the appetite for longer deck watches may be somewhat reduced?

 

[jdc]

Most long distance cruisers are only a couple. This means that recipes for 3 or more crew are an irrelevant luxury.

We do 3 on, and 3 off through the night, but have found that the 5am - 8am can be extended to 5am to 9am without hardship to the on-watch (me inevitably) but gives the off-watch the important 4hrs sleep once every 24 hrs. I get my extra through a middle of the day kip. So:

20:00 -23:00 on watch A (often an SSB schedule for watch B)
23:00 - 02:00 on watch B
02:00 - 05:00 on watch A
05:00 - 08:00/09:00 on watch B
08:00/09:00 - 10:00 both up (breakfast, deck tour, washing, chores)
10:00 - 13:00 both up with maybe a kip for watch B
13:00 - 14:00 both up (lunch)
14:00 - 18:00 both up with maybe a kip for watch A
18:00 - 20:00 both up (drinks/dinner/socialising)

Works for us.

 

[Poignard]

Whilst in the MN we used to do 4 on, 8 off, for 3 watch keepers whilst at sea, if we had two watch keepers then down to 6 on, 6 off. The 6 on/off was draining for long periods.

If I had three watchmen whilst sailing I would keep the 4 on, 8 off think.

I was an engineer in British coasters a long time ago with manned engine rooms and we only carried two engineers. We worked 5 on, 5 off. Some liked that system but personally I would have preferred 4 on, 4 off so that you kept the same hours each day. Anyway, nobody asked what I preferred so 5 on, 5 off it had to be.

 

[Poignard]

The most bonkers one I ever tried was at the request of an owner. He asked if it was possible to use a land days work approach. So we did, with three people, 8 on, 16 off. It was weird, but it sort of worked and I delivered the yacht from Miami to Gib.

Owner was a US Air Force Colonel, F16 pilot. So bonkers was excusable!

If I remember corectly, the flyboys on HMS Victorious worked 12 hours on, 12 hours off.

 

[Roberto]

I do not think there is a "perfect watch system", rather than play the Admiral and imposing any strict rules, when I have a crew we discuss what everyone feels best: who would like to begin, at what time, rain not rain, cold/not cold, for how long, etc etc, it usually works very well. Having said their word about the choice, people usually feel more inclined to wake up and go out, rather than obeying the local Bligh orders.
Also, you may decide whatever rythm you want, but if then you have one seasick crew, one not able to cook, one not able to trim a sail, etc ... Watches in the Navy are imho a very different animal from leisure boating with friends
.
I do not agree with the "minimum daily continuous 3-4 hour sleep" necessity, I have made a number of >500/1000 miles passages singlehanded and I discovered I needed 3-4 daily periods of about 1.5hours each; once back on land I never "collapsed" and slept through a normal night , which means basic physyology was maintained.
There are a number of chronobiology studies, namely by Dr Stampi, all in English and available online (see "Why we nap"), where the effects/benefits of polyphasic sleep are described.
It all comes to be very personal, I think it s a lot better to make an effort to know oneself, or people one is sailing with -it can be done in a couple f nights- rather than sticking to some sort of "perfect watch" rule..

 

[[3889]]

For 3 people, 3 on 6 off during the day (06:00-18:00), 2 on 4 off at night. Minimises on duty night shift lengths, allows for a long rest during the day and naturally rotates the watches each day

+1

 

[TLouth7]

How about the watch system some double-handed ocean rowers adopt - both rowing for 12 hours, then two 6 hour watches overnight. So effectively 18 hours on, 6 off.

I have no experience of longer passages, but for one night I have found that not having a fixed plan, and the watch-keeper just waking the other crew when they are tired can be effective.

 

[prv]

If I remember corectly, the flyboys on HMS Victorious worked 12 hours on, 12 hours off.

That's also the norm in the oil&gas and survey world afaik. 0600-1800 / 1800 - 0600, breakfast and dinner spanning the watch changes and lunch and a midnight meal halfway through their respective watches.

Pete

 

[capnsensible]

If I remember corectly, the flyboys on HMS Victorious worked 12 hours on, 12 hours off.

Submarine front end operates six on, six off no matter how long the trip, 1 day or 90+ days. The propulsion staff run a three watch system.

 

[jamie N]

That's also the norm in the oil&gas and survey world afaik. 0600-1800 / 1800 - 0600, breakfast and dinner spanning the watch changes and lunch and a midnight meal halfway through their respective watches.

Pete

Correct, though usually the 'crew', caterer's & supernumeries most often will be 06-18 or thereabouts, with fewer people (by far) doing a night shift. Drilling crew are usually 12-24, 00-12.
On DSV's, a 24hr ROV crew will have 12 hour shifts, some starting at 06-18, others at 00 -12, ensuring an overlap.

 

[Sybarite]

My thinking for a long passage the ideal would be (for a 4 person crew) is a 3hr on 6hr off for 3 members whereas the 4th gets a full nights sleep - rotated of course.

 

[Gwylan]

When we (wife and I) did our Atlantic circuit many years ago, we adopted this:

Watch-on-watch—the Swedish system : The Swedish watch system splits the crew in half, but uses an irregular schedule to balance the varying demands of different times of day. Beginning at 1900 hours (7:00 p.m.), the watches run on this schedule: five hours, four hours (mid watch), four hours, five hours, and six hours (afternoon watch). This system dogs itself automatically.

We found it worked well for us.

PS: the Aries windvane did most of the work anyway.

+1 for the Swedish System

On shorter trips +-3 days we have a modified version that I picked up from somewhere. Works well with 3 on board.
Have 3 hour spells through the night, from 20:00 to 08:00 - you are either on watch sleeping or on 'standby' That tends to be kitted up and sleeping on the passage berth. Whoever is coming on watch from standby is responsible for checking the log and nav as well as hot drinks and snacks for who ever wants them. Going off checks the nav and log and goes to bed if everything is OK! Should not be called, unless there is a serious situation.
Means that everyone gets 3 hours sleep and if things are calm they get best part of 6 hours sleep.
Over 3 nights then the slots rotate so everyone gets to do each of the slots.

Within this there is a rota for meal preparation.

 

[OceanSprint]

When my team did stints on a research vessel we did 6 on 6 off 6 on 12 off.

12 off called a sabatical

It meant you were not always with the same person

It meant you were not always on at the same time of day, so one day you could be up for breakfast, another day for lunch etc.

 

[michael_w]

Doesn't really matter what system you use. What really counts for a happy ship is prompt changeovers. I aim to have the relief come on deck five minutes early. If you've been freezing your posterior off for several hours, that five minutes less is wonderful.

In heavy weather this might mean waking the off watch 20 minutes early, so they can go the head, make drinks and fight their way into their oilskins. Not much water in the kettle which has a good whistle is excellent at raising malingerers.

 

[Fox Morgan]

I adjust the watch according to who is double handing with me and we agree on the system. Usually however it is agreed thus:
during the day, flexible watch system, take turns to prepare food, each person sorts their own breakfast when they feel like it, but one person will do the mid day meal, the other the evening meal, other food and snacks help yourself.
the daytime watches can be 3 or 4 hours each on watch, the first night watch usually starts at 10pm ish.
The its a 2 on 2 off, BUT, that 2 hours is a FULL 2 hours, starting from the moment the persons head hits the pillow. They get a full 2 hours, not 2 hours minus 15 minutes to get up. If during their offwatch, the other person watch needs help, the clock effectively stops, so you're in -no-mans-time, the clock starts again when your head gets back to the pillow.
SO the watch changeover times gradually shift over the night so they aren't aligned to a particular clock time, such as on the hour.

I do this system based on the premise that we sleep in 45 minute cycles. We need ideally two cycles to feel refreshed. Within a two hour window, most people will get two sleep cycles.

Also, by stopping the clock when help is needed, it does two things... the person on watch will be careful not to ask for help unless its really needed as it will prolong their time on watch. It also means that the person being disturbed knows that they aren't being short changed for their offwatch, although they are being disturbed.

During any point though, either person can give the other an extra hour (or two) in bed if one person is particularly tired, or one is particularly happy to stand a longer watch.

 

[Uricanejack]

I don't know of a perfect watch rotation. Some are less perfect than others. I find it depends on who I am sailing with. In the past I have followed formal watches. I often did the traditional naval rotation on while sailing as part of a large crew. More often I was exempted from the formal rotation.
The exemption had its draw back. I was on deck if the skipper was not.
Today
My watch system. If its a nice day my wife and I spend the day on deck sailing. If its raining. She goes bellow. I stay on deck.
At least the dog keeps watch with me. All the time.

I find changing is hard. I prefer longer stints on and off.
99% of my sailing is within my Days limit. With friends or family who are not sailors. Even though I quite often sail overnight. So I am "on watch". My longer trips are often alone.

On the rare occasions I go further afield. I have found sailing with only two of us very tiring. Particularly since my crew was inexperienced.
Sailing with experienced crew would be a luxury.

 

[Dutch01527]

Commercial and Navy ships use 4 on 8 off for a three watch system and have done so for hundreds of years.

I spent 6 years in the Merchant Navy on that system and it works very well. It means that you can get a full 7 hour sleep in one watch off and a nap / down time in the other. It is still my preferred routine now on a lesuire sailing boat with three watches. I can see little benefit to 3 on 6 off.

On a two watch system I would favour 6 and 6, also used commercially but noticeably more tiring.