Skippered charter in the UK- legal hoops?

[Sea Change]

Suspect the big difference is that Scotland is well trod and even the small locations are known and heavily promoted as a tourist destination.

I'm thinking about lesser known places which we nearly always have to ourselves. Uninhabited islands etc. Nobody is promoting these places because there's nobody there to make any money!

Skippered charters are more common in typical holiday places as people are looking for a holiday in the sun and a skippered boat is one way of doing it.

Yes this has probably influenced my thinking- I've spent most of the last three years dodging skippered charter boats in sunny places. The business model clearly works well there!

 

[Sea Change]

I don’t think that is as true as you may believe. There are lots of west coast based boats exploring away from marinas.

For those actually based here, yes, they do get in to the nooks and crannies. For those on a one off charter, or passing through, not sure much, I think.

I might, of course, be underestimating the appeal of pontoons. Not everybody enjoys climbing in and out of dinghies, and I'd have to factor that in. Fortunately we do have an every increasing number of options around here- even if some of them would only be suitable for doing a touch-and-go to drop off or pick up crew who wanted to spend time ashore. Something that I could easily offer but would be less practical without a skipper.

I think your idea is good, and is exactly the sort of niche market segment that folks would be interested in. It needs to be a quality service, good descriptions and stories, followed up with trips ashore to see what you’re talking about. I believe there is a hunger for such inside, interesting knowledge.

Thanks. I'm not coming to this completely cold- I did several seasons as a skipper and guide on motorboats, doing day trips around Skye and St Kilda. People love to hear about the places they are sailing past. I could even throw in a few tunes or songs if they're really gluttons for punishment...

 

[B27]

Even if you can singlehand the boat, you sill need another person to keep an eye on five numpty passengers.
I'm not sure what the rules are these days, but 20 years ago, you could get away with only a qualified skipper, if you were 'racing'.
If the guests are passengers, I think you'll be wanting at least one qualified person on watch at any time?
I think some people have been known to 'work' for 'free or cheap' as interns in this line, to get some miles before becoming superyacht crew or whatever? I've done informal free work ages ago, a long weekend or two on big boats with free food was appealing to a skint graduate.

Don't forget the shore/office workload.

I know quite a few people who've been in the charter and superyacht trades.
Mostly not currently though and some are foreign flagged.
Then there are a few 'one man and his boat' YM instruction outfits.

The 'Blue book' is still the baseline it seems?
Small craft codes
The take away point is that it costs a fair bit to comply, so you have to work the boat quite hard to make a profit.
I looked into it myself a long time ago, but got offered a proper job instead.

 

[Sea Change]

Even if you can singlehand the boat, you sill need another person to keep an eye on five numpty passengers.
I'm not sure what the rules are these days,

The place I used to work had a skipper and up to twelve passengers doing ~30nm 4hr trips around the Small Isles. Occasionally we would take crew but generally only if there was a spare member of staff, new skipper in training etc. Vast majority of the trips were skipper only.
I agree that it would probably be better to have crew, but I think that would truly blow the already tenuous economics apart.

Don't forget the shore/office workload.

This is where SWMBO comes in. I'm also envisaging that she could do occasional pick ups and drop offs if we can't make it back to base on schedule. We already run a holiday let together so what's another five sheets to wash and iron every week

 

[srm]

The take away point is that it costs a fair bit to comply, so you have to work the boat quite hard to make a profit.

Yes, when I retired in 2007 I wondered about going back to skippered charters as I had kept my certificates up to date (as part of my work). Instead I took the easy option of helping the Orkney bare boat charter business when they needed a skipper and sailed my own boat between times. I enjoyed doing the occasional trip as the people were interested in sailing the boat and were keen to be involved.

When I came to the Azores a local bare boat company here asked me to skipper for them when needed. The clients were totally different, basically the boat was a base to visit the islands and I was the driver. On one trip we were on the way back and I had been motor sailing down the Sao Jorge channel. Once clear of the island we picked up a nice breeze on the beam with a quiet sea. The charterer came up, enthused that this was the best part of the trip, and after about ten minutes went back to his bunk leaving me to enjoy a pleasant afternoon sail by myself.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

The place I used to work had a skipper and up to twelve passengers doing ~30nm 4hr trips around the Small Isles. Occasionally we would take crew but generally only if there was a spare member of staff, new skipper in training etc. Vast majority of the trips were skipper only.
I agree that it would probably be better to have crew, but I think that would truly blow the already tenuous economics apart.

If you are coded for Cat 2, 60 miles from a safe haven, you are obliged to ensure someone other than the skipper can do something! It is deliberately vague. This is usually achieved by showing someone how to send a mayday, how to start and stop the engine and steer at the safety briefing. This is how sailing centres that instruct in Cat2 waters, all Comp Crew and establish the second person.

 

[ylop]

But as you say, if there was a market, somebody would be doing it already...

Don’t take that too seriously, everyone with a slightly different or better approach could be shot down with such suggestions. Whilst we ended up buying a yacht we seriously considered the Brighton Belle Club. If it was in Scotland every year we probably would have done that. Now it’s a different business model but it is effectively a sort of skippered charter (in an Oyster 55 Ketch!).

The motivation behind this really stems from seeing so many boats passing through this area who all do the exact same stuff

I think that poses an interesting question are the skipping the anchorages because they don’t know they exist? Because they don’t feel confident using them? Because they want step ashore convenience (or shore power)? because they want food and a pint? Because they have planned it months in advance before they knew the weather or to tie in with road/rail transport?

I think with CCC Pilots, the internet (esp and Insta and YouTube showing what they could be missing) and Antares charts make it unlikely that anyone who really wants to doesn’t go there, whether in their own boat or bareboat. But you are targeting someone who probably doesn’t sail the west coast at all. If they don’t sail at all they may find even full day passages day after day not their taste. What you want is everyone leaving saying they had an amazing experience and it was amazing because of you so their friends use you.

There is of course a danger that if you are successful your 8 pax post all over insta and their mates all come back next year and post on insta and your quiet anchorages go from you being the only boat there to all the bareboats etc turning up and within 5 yrs you are the Skye/NC500 of the marine world !

Interesting thought. I'm wary of being stuck with a particular itinerary

That is definitely the downside to that approach. I think if your T&Cs cover it and you take on responsibility for getting people where they need to be when it goes wrong it will be fine. With the right spin the jeapordy can be part of the adventure. A bit of sensible planning can build in some fudge factor just in case - ultimately if you have back to back bookings it won’t matter if they are point to point or circular - when weather or mechanical issues get in the way you still end up in a pickle. I can see it is handy to get back to your own base for repairs etc from time to time.

But I’m projecting what I would have wanted before we had our own boat or what I would want to do if I was cruising for a living.

I'm also envisaging that she could do occasional pick ups and drop offs if we can't make it back to base on schedule

Interesting - at what point does she need registered as a Taxi? Years ago a seakayak guide I was using told me he’d been berated the week before (by one of his own customers who was a taxi inspector in another county) because he would pick people up at the train station and then drive wherever was best for the weather that day.

You also asked if your guests could count as part of the 24h watch system if they had the qualifications necessary for bareboat… I think you need to dive deep into the rules to work that out. My gut feel is no - I could bareboat, but I’m not commercially endorsed. I think if I was left as “on watch crew” whilst the skipper went to bed the MCA would not think that acceptable: I’ve no medical to prove I can read red/green lights, etc. but as someone else pointed out there are people looking to build experience who are actually quite happy to be “exploited” if you needed it for the occasional longer passage.

 

[benjenbav]

“Now it’s a different business model but it is effectively a sort of skippered charter (in an Oyster 55 Ketch!).”

Thread drift - sorry - one of my favourite boats.

 

[B27]

The place I used to work had a skipper and up to twelve passengers doing ~30nm 4hr trips around the Small Isles. Occasionally we would take crew but generally only if there was a spare member of staff, new skipper in training etc. Vast majority of the trips were skipper only.
I agree that it would probably be better to have crew, but I think that would truly blow the already tenuous economics apart.

...

Was that a motorboat?
Regardless of what the rules say, a sailing boat is less easy, as the 'passengers' are on deck among a lot of 'machinery' like winches which sailing people might understand and take for granted, but landlubbers can hurt themselves with these things.
Also when you are on the helm, you will find that 'passengers' get in the way, they are between you and the sheet winch or whatever, or they are on deck blocking your view of where you are going.

The whole 'paying guest'/'boat person' relationship is different from 'instructor/student'.

 

[Sea Change]

I think that poses an interesting question are the skipping the anchorages because they don’t know they exist? Because they don’t feel confident using them? Because they want step ashore convenience (or shore power)? because they want food and a pint? Because they have planned it months in advance before they knew the weather or to tie in with road/rail transport?

I'm sure it's a combination of all of the above. And I don't want to overblow the whole 'hidden anchorages' thing, a lot of people will talk about getting away from it all but then choose to go to the marina/village/pub anyway. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If they don’t sail at all they may find even full day passages day after day not their taste.

I'm not sure how necessary that would be. From where I'm based, it's ~15nm across to Uist and once you're there there are good anchorages every five miles or so, all within the lee of the islands. We've got Canna and Stornoway each a long day sail away. If people are set on specific destinations like Barra or St Kilda then yes some long passages would be necessary, but that's their choice.

At what point does she need registered as a Taxi?

Must admit that never occurred to me! I'll look in to it but intuitively I would have thought there was a bit of a difference between a scheduled and advertised service moving tourists around, vs occasional 'emergency' runs when we couldn't get the boat back to base on time.

You also asked if your guests could count as part of the 24h watch system if they had the qualifications necessary for bareboat… I think you need to dive deep into the rules to work that out. My gut feel is no - I could bareboat, but I’m not commercially endorsed. I think if I was left as “on watch crew” whilst the skipper went to bed the MCA would not think that acceptable: I’ve no medical to prove I can read red/green lights, etc. but as someone else pointed out there are people looking to build experience who are actually quite happy to be “exploited” if you needed it for the occasional longer passage.

Understood. Slightly different scenario.
As I've outlined above, there's really no need for 24hr watches when all of your major destinations are within 45nm.

 

[Sea Change]

Was that a motorboat?
Regardless of what the rules say, a sailing boat is less easy, as the 'passengers' are on deck among a lot of 'machinery' like winches which sailing people might understand and take for granted, but landlubbers can hurt themselves with these things.
Also when you are on the helm, you will find that 'passengers' get in the way, they are between you and the sheet winch or whatever, or they are on deck blocking your view of where you are going.

The whole 'paying guest'/'boat person' relationship is different from 'instructor/student'.

Yup, open RIB with 700hp. People tend to stay in their seats when you're doing 27kt

I've taken whole groups of completely newbies out on sailing boats before, as a volunteer skipper on historic vessels. I find people do tend to listen, and they want to learn how things work. On those boats we genuinely needed the passengers to contribute, as the boats cannot physically be sailed singlehanded. We never had a problem. But you need to have a good system for briefing and introducing everything- concise and snappy enough to hold attention. A bit of humour can help too.