Can I afford a Sunseeker Predator 108?

[superyaat]

I know any smart Alec will say "if you have to ask if you can afford a yacht, then.. you can't afford a yacht", but hear me out. And this question is for anyone who owns a boat such as this, has owned or knows a lot about them.

I owned a Jeanneau Prestige for about 6 years, berthed in France, and I have to say I had some incredible times. I never hired a captain, crew, ever, I always drove the boat myself and always took a friend who would throw over the fenders, help with the anchor, tender etc. Yes, a few times I came unstuck- once both engines stopped in the middle of the med. Once I jumped out the boat thinking the anchor was secure and it wasn't. Had my Mum on board, and let's just say she thought she lost her son for a few minutes . I dropped the tender upside down a few times, when launching on my own, not a good look when the tender is full of petrol. However! I learnt the hardware and became very confident parking the boat, in adverse weather and would say I was a pretty good driver with hundreds of hours beneath my belt. I love being physical and active.

Ok so back in the day, I did ok running my business. However, since then, I've spent a lot of my money and a lot has gone to the British... Let's say, the guys that run the country. So I recently have been looking to downsize and sell my home, to pay off more debt, in the UK. Unfortunately I am now not left with much. I do still have a few properties that bring in some rent. SO I've been thinking about buying an apartment In Cannes. Then it dawned on me, hold one, for 2m euros I can buy a 108 Mangusta or Predator. Half I could pay, the other half I would marine-mortgage. berth is 3k a month. So here's my question.. With NO money in the bank, could I look at living on and owning this boat as a business? If I chartered the boat, a friend just paid 13.5k euros per day to charter a Mangusta 108 in Ibiza.. So let's say I can clear 60k per week, and I contracted a captain, 3 crew for each week surely I would clear 50k for what 4-6 weeks per year out of the 4-5 months of summer in France?

When I looked at this a few years back, it was 450k Euros a year to run the boat BUT that's with a full time captain. I am thinking if I charter 6 weeks per year, thats 150k per year - 36k berth, let's say 100k upgrades / mechanic (I remember how much work my last boat always needed, the mechanic had to stay on my boat for 5 days after every time I used it to fix depth gauges, toilets, etc etc). Then, the times I would want to take friends out, I would just hire a couple of local deck hands super cheap and drive the boat myself, which I feel more than confident to do. After seeing TikTok videos all Monaco GP of Captains literally leaving port Hercule without removing the ropes, crashing into things, I am sure I can do a better job, especially as it's my 2m worth of material I would be driving around. And then, if / when I really come upon hard time (which looks likely with all these fines I keep receiving) I would just captain the boat in the charter weeks.

This would also be in place of my buying an apartment in Cannes to live in and work in. I am single, no kids, young and fit etc and I run a business but figure I could run it from the boat. My boat if you slept on it for a few weeks, you would really have sea legs by the time you left, would it be the same for such a larger boat at 108 foot? I'm thinking 3-4 months per year I would live on the boat.

Would love to hear if I am being FAR to risk taking here- as in a new engine I heard is 450k? Obviously I do not have this kind of cash right now, so I know most people would say dont buy this boat. I got to where I am from taking risks, and I actually havent taken risks for the last 10 years and been playing it much safer. In reality how many weeks a year can you charter a boat like this in south of France each year? And if I drive myself and do not have full time staff what is the realistic cost and can I treat this like a business?

Thanks so much for any real advice here from anyone who has been in the same boat Cheers

 

[benjenbav]

Seems to me like you need everything to go right for you for your plan to work. Like that happens with boats… And that’s if you can find someone to lend you 50% of your 2 bar outlay without certainty of being able to service the debt or any other security.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

It could be done but 108. I would stay in that 23/24 meter ball park, which have big spaces, and then is easier to handle, and even for charter you enter a much simple regulation.
Between your 10 meter Prestige (was it 10?) there is 15/18/20/22 etc meters. The average cost to maintain a thirty meter is about 200k and a minimum crew is always required onboard in such a size IMO.

tip; you can buy an eighteen meter which has all the comforts in the World and live on it, and still keep your bread and butter investments.

Today with social media everyone seems to see things small, back a decade ago going above fifteen meters seemed a big step for private ownership....
Damn fifty feet still seem big to me, and a size which is at the border of many things.

This is my 2 cents of the matter.

 

[jointventureII]

The Pred 108 has triple ASD16 surface drives doesn't it? Eep....

I know of a few boats of that size, that turn a profit, but they are chartered constantly. It's also a very competitive market with newer, more interesting yachts appearing all the time. The older your boat gets, the less you can ask for.

Then you've got to keep the thing charter seaworthy - all the certs and docs need to be in order, boat needs to be in class.

If you're going to have a go, it'll need to be with something much less maintenance heavy, as @PowerYachtBlog sensibly suggests, sit at the boundary of when the regs go up a gear - stay under 24m load line. That is also plenty big enough to live on.

 

[benjenbav]

It could be done but 108. I would stay in that 23/24 meter ball park, which have big spaces, and then is easier to handle, and even for charter you enter a much simple regulation.
Between your 10 meter Prestige (was it 10?) there is 15/18/20/22 etc meters. The average cost to maintain a thirty meter is about 200k and a minimum crew is always required onboard in such a size IMO.

tip; you can buy an eighteen meter which has all the comforts in the World and live on it, and still keep your bread and butter investments.

Today with social media everyone seems to see things small, back a decade ago going above fifteen meters seemed a big step for private ownership....
Damn fifty feet still seem big to me, and a size which is at the border of many things.

This is my 2 cents of the matter.

Out of interest, would that £200k/year include finance costs?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Out of interest, would that £200k/year include finance costs?

No, and I meant Euros. That would include a yearly berthing fee, yearly haul-out (and what comes with it) and an average on maintenance with some surprise nugget thrown in there.

 

[Seastoke]

He would have to pass his commercial cert won’t he. Being he seems to have done well in business, he seems a bit disorganised.

 

[Portofino]

I would buy the property first .Go down that route .That’s the real secret to modern world wealth accumulation.
Buying a depreciating asset on finance ( your boat loan ) will eventually bankrupt or near bankrupt you in the Cannes area .The property route won’t and depending on how many you buy ( poss a Air B+B ? ) you buy for the same dosh in / around the Cote d Azur .It’s % interest charged by the bank will be less than the finance rate on a boat .
Socials mean it’s occupancy rate will be assured and believe me properties are far simpler and easier to maintain requiring less need to hire “ experts “

Not even convinced you will get a mortgage offer on a 50 % of a old boat anyhow ? So this plan is doomed . The bank ( finance Co ) will be doing you a favour imho to refuse you .

We reached a point bringing in PYBs point @50 Ft a decade or so ago of up sizing from a Sunsqueaker 37 to a FB 50 ish or a 53 sports .
I went down the property route buying in Antibes …..no regrets .
Kept the boat to a 14 M open Med sports for personal use as it didn’t need to pay for itself or provide income .
Buying the right boat at the time @ the right age ( bottom of its dep curve ) means it hasn’t depreciated btw FWIW .
Anything above a popular size , it’s mkt for resale as it ages shrinks to almost semi give away .That’s why there’s so many Mangusta s et al at silly prices .A Pred 108 is in that category I am afraid . It’s running costs will envelope its value ( what you paid ) in a very short time season wise .

Sorry to rain on your parade , but you need to rid yourself of debt not acquire more at your time of life .

There’s enough guys sleeping rough with a bottle around the marina in Antibes / Cannes as it is without encouraging another .

 

[Portofino]

No, and I meant Euros. That would include a yearly berthing fee, yearly haul-out (and what comes with it) and an average on maintenance with some surprise nugget thrown in there.

Then the finance on top . Plus a few meteorites as well as tiny “ nuggets “ on a 108 Pred .

Even the berth rental I suspect is more in a likely hot area Cannes / Antibes / Cap D Ail .

Edit = Then there is the Fr taxation ……far more difficult to nav than the boat @ sea .

Even opening a Fr bank Ac they declare or more like you have declare ( own up ) that you are earning a income in Fr .
A Fr fiscal code is an onerous thing to have hung around your neck ……your other WW assets will be looked at by the Fr with a view to grabbing a slice in tax .Obviously you will need to professional advice on this .

Rule of thumb 1/3 rd ton1/2 of the boats net income eventually one way shape or form will end up in Paris .

 

[petem]

Something like this would be suitable for charter (find a coded one), be far less hassle form a regs perspective and be perfectly comfortable to live on (a fellow berth holder does exactly that).

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2003-princess-v65-8865795/

 

[ontheplane]

I think unless you have significant experience in this field it’s far more likely to bankrupt you than pay you.

And you can’t live in it if you are chartering it so where you gonna live.

Sounds like a way to make a small fortune…..

….out of a large one….

 

[petem]

It would be skippered charter so the op would live in the crew cabin when chartering

 

[ontheplane]

I would think but a £100k apartment and invest £1.9m in property (not necessarily in UK) and you’d likely make more money?

 

[MapisM]

Compared to buying a Predator or a 'Gusta, I reckon you'd likely make more money from just about anything else!

 

[Hooligan]

The whole idea is insane.

 

[superyaat]

I would buy the property first .Go down that route .That’s the real secret to modern world wealth accumulation.
Buying a depreciating asset on finance ( your boat loan ) will eventually bankrupt or near bankrupt you in the Cannes area .The property route won’t and depending on how many you buy ( poss a Air B+B ? ) you buy for the same dosh in / around the Cote d Azur .It’s % interest charged by the bank will be less than the finance rate on a boat .
Socials mean it’s occupancy rate will be assured and believe me properties are far simpler and easier to maintain requiring less need to hire “ experts “

Not even convinced you will get a mortgage offer on a 50 % of a old boat anyhow ? So this plan is doomed . The bank ( finance Co ) will be doing you a favour imho to refuse you .

We reached a point bringing in PYBs point @50 Ft a decade or so ago of up sizing from a Sunsqueaker 37 to a FB 50 ish or a 53 sports .
I went down the property route buying in Antibes …..no regrets .
Kept the boat to a 14 M open Med sports for personal use as it didn’t need to pay for itself or provide income .
Buying the right boat at the time @ the right age ( bottom of its dep curve ) means it hasn’t depreciated btw FWIW .
Anything above a popular size , it’s mkt for resale as it ages shrinks to almost semi give away .That’s why there’s so many Mangusta s et al at silly prices .A Pred 108 is in that category I am afraid . It’s running costs will envelope its value ( what you paid ) in a very short time season wise .

Sorry to rain on your parade , but you need to rid yourself of debt not acquire more at your time of life .

There’s enough guys sleeping rough with a bottle around the marina in Antibes / Cannes as it is without encouraging another .

That's great advice thanks Portofino!

So I had a Prestige 60ft, I always drove myself. I started (years ago) also taking my yacht masters but never completed it.

The 60ft was great, but yes I know this sounds silly to some, always wanted a larger boat that I could charter. Mangust 108 or 93 would charter for so much more than a 60 ft Jeanneau.

I also think the time sap would be huge, even if I had a company managing it. I've seen 108s for under 2m but I've seen 93's for about 1.2m euros... BUT I guess I would need to charter it all the time.

Yes also looked at AirBNB's and they seem strong now for Cannes so I will go this route. Thanks again for you advice, really appreciate it!

 

[superyaat]

It could be done but 108. I would stay in that 23/24 meter ball park, which have big spaces, and then is easier to handle, and even for charter you enter a much simple regulation.
Between your 10 meter Prestige (was it 10?) there is 15/18/20/22 etc meters. The average cost to maintain a thirty meter is about 200k and a minimum crew is always required onboard in such a size IMO.

tip; you can buy an eighteen meter which has all the comforts in the World and live on it, and still keep your bread and butter investments.

Today with social media everyone seems to see things small, back a decade ago going above fifteen meters seemed a big step for private ownership....
Damn fifty feet still seem big to me, and a size which is at the border of many things.

This is my 2 cents of the matter.

Yes I checked the quote and it's 3k per month for the berth at Vieux port de Cannes.

so 200k sounds about right, it's the engines that would be the surprise! Well I had the 60ft Jeanneau Prestige.. I did enjoy it, it did seem like the smallest boat if I went to Monaco, or Cannes. Had the boat in Nice. Was also quite choppy, as in, if I slept on the boat for a few weeks, you would really notice walking off- I would have sea legs for a few days so was hoping a larger boat that would not happen.

Thanks again! Apologies for the late reply, I didn't receive a notification so just checked the page.

 

[superyaat]

The Pred 108 has triple ASD16 surface drives doesn't it? Eep....

I know of a few boats of that size, that turn a profit, but they are chartered constantly. It's also a very competitive market with newer, more interesting yachts appearing all the time. The older your boat gets, the less you can ask for.

Then you've got to keep the thing charter seaworthy - all the certs and docs need to be in order, boat needs to be in class.

If you're going to have a go, it'll need to be with something much less maintenance heavy, as @PowerYachtBlog sensibly suggests, sit at the boundary of when the regs go up a gear - stay under 24m load line. That is also plenty big enough to live on.

Yes that feels to me like a lot of work.. And a 20 year old boat is going to have a lot of issues.

I was actually sent a decent 93 ft Mangusta which I was considering, but actually now think to leave it.

The guy selling it told me for the 108 you need a full time onboard mechanic, but you don't for the Mangusta 93..

 

[superyaat]

Then the finance on top . Plus a few meteorites as well as tiny “ nuggets “ on a 108 Pred .

Even the berth rental I suspect is more in a likely hot area Cannes / Antibes / Cap D Ail .

Edit = Then there is the Fr taxation ……far more difficult to nav than the boat @ sea .

Even opening a Fr bank Ac they declare or more like you have declare ( own up ) that you are earning a income in Fr .
A Fr fiscal code is an onerous thing to have hung around your neck ……your other WW assets will be looked at by the Fr with a view to grabbing a slice in tax .Obviously you will need to professional advice on this .

Rule of thumb 1/3 rd ton1/2 of the boats net income eventually one way shape or form will end up in Paris .

oh wow I did not know that.

I can only spend 90 days per year in France because I am not a French resident. I am also non-resi in the UK so was hoping the tax wouldn't be huge.

Hahaha half!! that's a lot, ok, feels expensive. Thanks again for the honest feedback

Thank you

 

[superyaat]

The whole idea is insane.

thanks hooligan
I love a bit of insanity

Im under playing how well I did some time back, most would have classed it as insane. I always remember my Mum would shudder whenever I came up with an expensive plan, but it always worked out and made money