Skippered charter in the UK- legal hoops?

[westernman]

You might like to consider just a half day excursion.
This is likely to attract more punters and be much more of an earner.

The guy below was my pontoon neighbour at Leucate.
He would do two or three excursions per day and during the summer months the boat would have a dozen or so passengers at 34 euros or more each.

Accueil

 

[srm]

Those that want skippered charter will also not want to act as crew for the skipper and there are likely to be a host of legal issues if the OP tries to mix and match passenger and crew roles and anything goes wrong.

Can you support this statement with evidence? Obviously there are different niches in the market but I suspect you are thinking of the top end.

Paying crew has worked well for most of my commercial sailing, though I was offering sailing instruction and RYA certification for those who wanted it. Hands on sailing is also part of the attraction on many "heritage" vessels.

I agree with @Tranona that the old Moody will not attract many individual berth clients. As he said the boat needs to be "special" in some way. You also need to think about the sleeping arrangements, who wants to share a "double berth" with a stranger, even if you do give them separate sleeping bags?

The guy below was my pontoon neighbour at Leucate.
He would do two or three excursions per day and during the summer months the boat would have a dozen or so passengers at 34 euros or more each.

Accueil

Its not just the half day excursions that makes it profitable. Its a special boat that would attract experienced sailors as well. I would happily pay to go out on a boat like that for a day provided that it was actually sailing and not just motoring with a token sail set as so many short trip boats do.

 

[Tranona]

The number 1 question is whether you can put together a package that appeals to enough people at a price that will cover the cost of providing the service. The going rate for berths on boats is in a wide range - from £100 a night on a Thames barge to as much as £400 a night on an exotic vintage yawl, but the main range is £2-300 full board. The season is short and would guess that a typical occupancy is 10-12 weeks a year. 4 people at £1500 a week for 10 weeks is £60k gross a year. With my bareboat charter my break even was around 14 weeks a year. The last year I managed 16 weeks and made 3000 euros profit.

Marketing and running just one boat with essentially only one offering in a crowded market is a real challenge.

 

[benjenbav]

benjenbav said:
Those that want skippered charter will also not want to act as crew for the skipper and there are likely to be a host of legal issues if the OP tries to mix and match passenger and crew roles and anything goes wrong.

Can you support this statement with evidence? Obviously there are different niches in the market but I suspect you are thinking of the top end.

The comment about what charterers want is my opinion. I may be wrong. I think I am thinking of the top end and, speaking for myself, I’d either want the boat to myself plus family ( if my circumstances were different I might extend that to include close friends/relations) or to have a boat that was big enough for there to be a skipper and crew largely out of sight.

The OP’s plan is to use the passengers as crew with just the OP aboard. I don’t think that would be easy for any involved as the passengers’ skills would be variable and let’s imagine one gets washed off the deck in conditions beyond their capabilities. The legal wrangling that would be likely to follow could be considerable.

 

[westernman]

The number 1 question is whether you can put together a package that appeals to enough people at a price that will cover the cost of providing the service. The going rate for berths on boats is in a wide range - from £100 a night on a Thames barge to as much as £400 a night on an exotic vintage yawl, but the main range is £2-300 full board. The season is short and would guess that a typical occupancy is 10-12 weeks a year. 4 people at £1500 a week for 10 weeks is £60k gross a year. With my bareboat charter my break even was around 14 weeks a year. The last year I managed 16 weeks and made 3000 euros profit.

Marketing and running just one boat with essentially only one offering in a crowded market is a real challenge.

1500 a week is 214 per day.
My neighbour with 10 people on board made a load more than that in one of his two/three trips of 1h45 minutes.

 

[westernman]

Its not just the half day excursions that makes it profitable. Its a special boat that would attract experienced sailors as well. I would happily pay to go out on a boat like that for a day provided that it was actually sailing and not just motoring with a token sail set as so many short trip boats do.

Half day.

1h45.

 

[ylop]

There are so many small niches and what you offer has to appeal to 4-6 people, often strangers who are happy to pay the price for what you offer.

I guess that is a key difference between bareboat+skipper v skippered? Are you booking 6 berths and inviting people you like (or family!) or going to be lumped in with randoms.

Those that want skippered charter will also not want to act as crew for the skipper

I think that’s a massive assumption. Lots of people looking to build experience, go to new areas etc. A moody 44 might be within reach of many on here but there’s plenty of people post here who are looking to buy a much smaller boat that is basically camping and is never going to leave their local waters who might fancy something different, somewhere different and even if they have the right bits of paper don’t have the confidence to charter something big in a new area. The challenge will be finding those people with a price point and offering that makes sense. The Brighton Belle Sailing club is evidence that unusual models can work (although I caveat that by saying I believe their boat is for sale and I’m not sure if it is to be replaced).

You might like to consider just a half day excursion.
This is likely to attract more punters and be much more of an earner.

The problem with half day excursions in Scotland is they will be very weather dependant. When it’s perfect conditions you can sell the space 5x over - but when it’s raining, bouncy or cold and grey you need to want to go sailing to go out. Again niche “historic” boats have an advantage for that stuff.

who wants to share a "double berth" with a stranger, even if you do give them separate sleeping bags?

Well perhaps that’s the niche! Don’t give them separate bags!

The OP’s plan is to use the passengers as crew with just the OP aboard. I don’t think that would be easy for any involved as the passengers’ skills would be variable and let’s imagine one gets washed off the deck in conditions beyond their capabilities. The legal wrangling that would be likely to follow could be considerable.

I don’t think that’s insurmountable - every training school boat that goes out with novices handles this; every baseboat charter that employs a skipper; every RIB trip that goes with a single helm. It may well mean you narrow the range of “usable” conditions - but unless you like mopping up sick that’s probably wise anyway. Personally I think part of the sales pitch would be you will get involved in sailing the boat - being a passenger on 30 yr old yacht in the pissing rain in a hard sell no matter who good the skipper’s patter, and his wife’s rewarmed meals are!

 

[srm]

I don’t think that would be easy for any involved as the passengers’ skills would be variable and let’s imagine one gets washed off the deck in conditions beyond their capabilities.

Depends on the skipper, boat, and how it is managed. I have made the passage between Shetland to Norway a number of times with crews made up of people I only met the day before. They varied in ability from complete novices to very experience cruising sailors. Sailing to a timetable we I experienced the whole range of Norwegian Sea summer conditions including a F8-9 northerly but without a fully developed sea state.

I did imagine someone getting washed off the deck (we used hanked on head sails) then ensured that the jackstays and harnesses system would keep them on board. There was a thorough briefing and practice of the safety procedures before the passage.

Nothing unusual in this, sailing schools and "heritage" boats take complete beginners sailing. When I was an RYA instructor the guidance included making use of bad weather to build confidence and demonstrate that one could still sail in it safely, all be it with some discomfort. This contrasts with a Canadian training organisation that I know with capable sea going boats that limits their sailing trips to a forecast of less than 20 knots of wind.

 

[benjenbav]

Depends on the skipper, boat, and how it is managed. I have made the passage between Shetland to Norway a number of times with crews made up of people I only met the day before. They varied in ability from complete novices to very experience cruising sailors. Sailing to a timetable we I experienced the whole range of Norwegian Sea summer conditions including a F8-9 northerly but without a fully developed sea state.

I did imagine someone getting washed off the deck (we used hanked on head sails) then ensured that the jackstays and harnesses system would keep them on board. There was a thorough briefing and practice of the safety procedures before the passage.

Nothing unusual in this, sailing schools and "heritage" boats take complete beginners sailing. When I was an RYA instructor the guidance included making use of bad weather to build confidence and demonstrate that one could still sail in it safely, all be it with some discomfort.

Absolutely accept that. The OP, however, mentions that their qualifications amount to DS. I think that’s an area where the lawyers would have a field day if something goes wrong, with passengers put to work under unqualified leadership - notwithstanding there may be plenty of experience.

 

[Sea Change]

The OP’s plan is to use the passengers as crew with just the OP aboard. I don’t think that would be easy for any involved as the passengers’ skills would be variable and let’s imagine one gets washed off the deck in conditions beyond their capabilities. The legal wrangling that would be likely to follow could be considerable.

I'm not sure why, when sailing a boat which I would happily singlehand, I would suddenly be relying on paying passengers to help me just because they're there?

 

[Sea Change]

Absolutely accept that. The OP, however, mentions that their qualifications amount to DS. I think that’s an area where the lawyers would have a field day if something goes wrong, with passengers put to work under unqualified leadership - notwithstanding there may be plenty of experience.

True, I currently only have DS. I've done it twice, for both sail and power.
I've also completed Advanced Powerboat and previously held a Boat master license.
I have over 10,000 miles under my belt as skipper on sailing yachts, including an Atlantic crossing with only one other adult and a six year old aboard.
I learned to sail on open wooden luggers where, once I became skipper, I would often take out an entirely novice crew for day trips.
I've spent about six years as a skipper on commercial powerboats, often reliant on compete novices as crew. I've worked the waters around Skye in an weathers and times of year, including St Kilda trips.

I wouldn't be thinking of embarking on this until after I'd done my YM. But thanks for your concern.

 

[Sea Change]

The number 1 question is whether you can put together a package that appeals to enough people at a price that will cover the cost of providing the service. The going rate for berths on boats is in a wide range - from £100 a night on a Thames barge to as much as £400 a night on an exotic vintage yawl, but the main range is £2-300 full board. The season is short and would guess that a typical occupancy is 10-12 weeks a year. 4 people at £1500 a week for 10 weeks is £60k gross a year. With my bareboat charter my break even was around 14 weeks a year. The last year I managed 16 weeks and made 3000 euros profit.

Marketing and running just one boat with essentially only one offering in a crowded market is a real challenge.

Agree, it always comes down to money. I don't need to make big bucks on this but I'd have to at least not be losing money.

I was looking at the going rate for bareboat on the west coast, and it's anywhere from £1800-£3600 a week. So I was assuming that a skippered charter could add a little bit on to that. Although obviously you lose probably two berths, unless I end up sleeping in the saloon which doesn't seem very practical.

 

[benjenbav]

I'm not sure why, when sailing a boat which I would happily singlehand, I would suddenly be relying on paying passengers to help me just because they're there?

My apologies, I thought that’s what you had suggested. But reading back, I must have conflated your separate comments that you planned to singlehand (in terms of paid crew) and that you would be dependent on crew capabilities and assumed the crew would have to come from the roster of guests.

 

[benjenbav]

True, I currently only have DS. I've done it twice, for both sail and power.
I've also completed Advanced Powerboat and previously held a Boat master license.
I have over 10,000 miles under my belt as skipper on sailing yachts, including an Atlantic crossing with only one other adult and a six year old aboard.
I learned to sail on open wooden luggers where, once I became skipper, I would often take out an entirely novice crew for day trips.
I've spent about six years as a skipper on commercial powerboats, often reliant on compete novices as crew. I've worked the waters around Skye in an weathers and times of year, including St Kilda trips.

I wouldn't be thinking of embarking on this until after I'd done my YM. But thanks for your concern.

I hope that the airing and challenging of perceived issues on this thread has been of some help in your thinking about what might be an interesting and fulfilling business venture.

 

[Sea Change]

My apologies, I thought that’s what you had suggested. But reading back, I must have conflated your separate comments that you planned to singlehand (in terms of paid crew) and that you would be dependent on crew capabilities and assumed the crew would have to come from the roster of guests.

The only thing that would be dependent on crew capabilities would be the itinerary. If nobody is interested in lending a hand, we won't get as far. If I've got as bunch of experienced gung-ho sailors who are set on St Kilda and willing to put in watches and overnight passages, then that's what we'd aim for.

As I've said it's very much hypothetical, and maybe it's not a great idea, given how few people seem to have managed to make it work. But I'm curious enough to put in the time just now to explore the idea.

 

[ylop]

Absolutely accept that. The OP, however, mentions that their qualifications amount to DS. I think that’s an area where the lawyers would have a field day if something goes wrong, with passengers put to work under unqualified leadership - notwithstanding there may be plenty of experience.

He did clearly state was going to do YM though - and that would be essential really as otherwise he'd be restricted to 20NM from his nominated departure point!

I was looking at the going rate for bareboat on the west coast, and it's anywhere from £1800-£3600 a week. So I was assuming that a skippered charter could add a little bit on to that. Although obviously you lose probably two berths, unless I end up sleeping in the saloon which doesn't seem very practical.

Were you imagining it being booked on a "whole boat basis" or by the berth? If its whole boat your competition is all the bareboats who have a "skippered option". If its by the berth you can probably get slightly more per berth (when occupied), but presumably still have to go if its only me and the mrs that happen to book on that week in Sept.

The only thing that would be dependent on crew capabilities would be the itinerary. If nobody is interested in lending a hand, we won't get as far. If I've got as bunch of experienced gung-ho sailors who are set on St Kilda and willing to put in watches and overnight passages, then that's what we'd aim for.

Oh, now I can see a potential issue there. Lets say a group book as gung-ho sailors for a trip involving watches and overnight passages. If they had lots of experience presumably they would just have booked a bareboat. So you are taking some relatively inexperienced people you've never met before and trusting them to sail in the dark on a boat they aren't familiar with whilst you head down below for a snooze. You are more trusting than me! I think the MCA might believe that if the skipper is resting someone else who is qualified should be on watch - and of course if they are qualified the inevitable question is why would they not just bareboat.

I think there probably is a market for a boat that is going to sail a particular pattern and which people can book onto legs for, rather than always being in the same place and sailing the same loop. That would mean you could bring second crew for trickier legs too.

As I've said it's very much hypothetical, and maybe it's not a great idea, given how few people seem to have managed to make it work. But I'm curious enough to put in the time just now to explore the idea.

The lack of competition could be a sign there is no real market - but it could also be a good thing if you manage to find a business model that works for you.

Its probably more work to become an RYA school - but if you are good with people - would that be effectively a similar thing? I think that market may be bigger - but is certainly more crowded.

 

[Sea Change]

Were you imagining it being booked on a "whole boat basis" or by the berth?

It could be either. I guess I could offer a combination of options (book singly for the bunk cabin, or book as a couple for one of the doubles, or book the whole boat). There possibilities would depend on the boat of course

Oh, now I can see a potential issue there. Lets say a group book as gung-ho sailors for a trip involving watches and overnight passages. If they had lots of experience presumably they would just have booked a bareboat. So you are taking some relatively inexperienced people you've never met before and trusting them to sail in the dark on a boat they aren't familiar with whilst you head down below for a snooze. You are more trusting than me! I think the MCA might believe that if the skipper is resting someone else who is qualified should be on watch - and of course if they are qualified the inevitable question is why would they not just bareboat.

Fair points. I'd need to judge their abilities, and also consider the legalities of leaving somebody else on watch. Presumably if they were sufficiently qualified to do a bareboat themselves, that would be good enough?

There's only so much passage making involved when you've got one week to play with. Even Leverburgh-Hirta is only 45nm. I'm not envisaging going outside of the west coast, unless it was, as has been suggested, doing legs on a one-way basis. Even then, I think that shorter passages with more in depth exploration close to shore would make better use of having me onboard as a guide. There's not that much to see or talk about when you're in the middle of the Minch. Weaving between islands and creeping up narrow inlets is more what I have in mind. Anybody can sail/motor in a straight line from one marina to the next...

I think there probably is a market for a boat that is going to sail a particular pattern and which people can book onto legs for, rather than always being in the same place and sailing the same loop. That would mean you could bring second crew for trickier legs too.

Interesting thought. I'm wary of being stuck with a particular itinerary. It's less of a concern for the likes of the Hjalmar Bjorn or Cuma who have been offering these kinds of trips for many years- the difference being, they are large motorboats.

The lack of competition could be a sign there is no real market - but it could also be a good thing if you manage to find a business model that works for you.

Its probably more work to become an RYA school - but if you are good with people - would that be effectively a similar thing? I think that market may be bigger - but is certainly more crowded.

In a previous life I did train as a teacher, and I do enjoy teaching, in general. It's certainly crossed my mind and I wouldn't rule it out.


The motivation behind this really stems from seeing so many boats passing through this area who all do the exact same stuff- hop from marina to marina and if feeling adventurous, anchor in Pulldorran. People even stop in horrible places like Kinlochbervie rather than anchor in one of the dozens of beautiful lochs nearby. I think there's a lot more to see that people miss out on, and it would be a bonus to have an experienced local skipper to explain the history and stories behind many of these places. I think you could also be a lot bolder sneaking in to the less well known anchorages this way.

But as you say, if there was a market, somebody would be doing it already...

 

[Tranona]

The motivation behind this really stems from seeing so many boats passing through this area who all do the exact same stuff- hop from marina to marina and if feeling adventurous, anchor in Pulldorran. People even stop in horrible places like Kinlochbervie rather than anchor in one of the dozens of beautiful lochs nearby. I think there's a lot more to see that people miss out on, and it would be a bonus to have an experienced local skipper to explain the history and stories behind many of these places. I think you could also be a lot bolder sneaking in to the less well known anchorages this way.

But as you say, if there was a market, somebody would be doing it already...

Suspect the big difference is that Scotland is well trod and even the small locations are known and heavily promoted as a tourist destination. Sailing bare boat is not difficult and just about any family or group of mates can access it easily. Skippered charters are more common in typical holiday places as people are looking for a holiday in the sun and a skippered boat is one way of doing it.

Not sure much of that effort free holiday market exists in Scotland and from what I have seen most of the operators who have worked there have packaged an experience for independent individuals or couples who can't get it any other way than finding a berth on a boat/itinerary that they fancy. Are there enough of such people around, and if so how to you find them?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… The motivation behind this really stems from seeing so many boats passing through this area who all do the exact same stuff- hop from marina to marina and if feeling adventurous, anchor in Pulldorran. People even stop in horrible places like Kinlochbervie rather than anchor in one of the dozens of beautiful lochs nearby. I think there's a lot more to see that people miss out on, and it would be a bonus to have an experienced local skipper to explain the history and stories behind many of these places. I think you could also be a lot bolder sneaking in to the less well known anchorages this way.

But as you say, if there was a market, somebody would be doing it already...

I don’t think that is as true as you may believe. There are lots of west coast based boats exploring away from marinas. You have said it a few times, I would drop that as a reason.

I think your idea is good, and is exactly the sort of niche market segment that folks would be interested in. It needs to be a quality service, good descriptions and stories, followed up with trips ashore to see what you’re talking about. I believe there is a hunger for such inside, interesting knowledge.

Don’t worry about the boat or how to set it up, focus on the stories and experiences you can offer. That is where the demand will come from. The boat will just be a vehicle for the experience, but of course it can’t be a piece of shit.

Don’t be dissuaded by what you perceive as no market. People creat markets and skippered charter is, has worked, so folks do pay for that experience already. Make what you offer better than mile crunching.

 

[srm]

But as you say, if there was a market, somebody would be doing it already...

In the 80's when I was active in the charter/sailing school business skippered charters had a significant share of the market north of the Clyde (I never went down there), with only a few bare boats available on the west coast. The last few years that I was on the west coast, 2005 to 2014, there were quite a lot of big, and fairly obviously, bare boats around.

I think your idea could work, the problem is marketing it. Something like "Explore the secret Hebrides and its hidden anchorages under sail" Perhaps pitching it to North America and Europe. It may help to find a tour company or two to promote it and take bookings for you.

Not quite the same but there was, and may still be, an ex-European waterways motor barge taking passengers along the Caledonian Canal on one week trips. They seemed to be working each time I passed through.