chris-s
Well-known member
And we were doing so well to avoid the ‘L’ word
You just need to factor in the charging requirements as an extra cost and potential complication.
What leisure battery and what capacity?
- Thread starter GetItDone
- Start date
You just need to factor in the charging requirements as an extra cost and potential complication.
vyv_cox
Well-known member
We have Winner Solar house batteries that have been excellent. They seem to be available all over Europe although we bought ours in Greece. They withstand more discharge cycles than many other types. Were no more expensive than other varieties.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Spot on Doug
vyv_cox
Well-known member
I have bought from and visited ABS in Stockport. From outside their premises were far from impressive but very different inside. They do a huge range of batteries, including some of the biggest I have ever seen. Very knowledgeable people and a pleasure to deal with.
B27
Well-known member
If you destroyed your batteries in two years, you probably need to look at why that happened.
I'm not sure if the OP's boat has an inboard diesel, if so then Lifepo4 batteries are generally not suitable for back up starting.
I'd be reluctant to lose the ability to start the engine with the house battery.
My boat hasn't seen shore power in two years, with a reasonable amount of solar, I don't generally find it hard to keep the house battery charged. I am considering a portable Lithium battery which would power the heater in the Autumn and also come in handy for my portable fridge ashore.
Moored where I am, a cruise normally ends with at least 40 minutes of motoring, the alternator chucks in some amps in this time, so the battery is not left too low. The solar tops it up over the next few days. It's not ideal, but the existing battery doesn't seem to have suffered much in the last 3 years.
Refueler
Well-known member
If you really want to get into A/hrs per £ .... then get yourself to a Truck Suppliers ... they sell the batterys based on A/Hr capacity ..
They also can provide what are termed Dual Purpose - they are not only starting big truck engines - but also powering the tail-lifts.
Its interesting that a trade that relies on batterys performing winter - summer running tail-lifts / hydraulics / starting reluctant diesel engnes are Lead Acid ??
As to Fred's 2 years ... ??? I used 2nd hand batterys for many years in UK until moving boat over here and it got hard to find over here .. I would trot along to Breakers Yard .. guy would drag out a few batterys - load test and I'd decide which I wanted .. usually about £25 or so for a 90 - 100A/hr ... how long did they last ? Shortest time was about 2 years and that was not the batterys fault - that was lack of charge when boat stood. Boat has two batterys and most I had would happily go 5yrs or more ... one in fact went over 7yrs.
They also can provide what are termed Dual Purpose - they are not only starting big truck engines - but also powering the tail-lifts.
Its interesting that a trade that relies on batterys performing winter - summer running tail-lifts / hydraulics / starting reluctant diesel engnes are Lead Acid ??
As to Fred's 2 years ... ??? I used 2nd hand batterys for many years in UK until moving boat over here and it got hard to find over here .. I would trot along to Breakers Yard .. guy would drag out a few batterys - load test and I'd decide which I wanted .. usually about £25 or so for a 90 - 100A/hr ... how long did they last ? Shortest time was about 2 years and that was not the batterys fault - that was lack of charge when boat stood. Boat has two batterys and most I had would happily go 5yrs or more ... one in fact went over 7yrs.
fredrussell
Well-known member
Yeah, sorry - it was going to rear its ugly head sooner or later!And we were doing so well to avoid the ‘L’ word
William_H
Well-known member
"True deep cycle are not suitable for engine starting" yes but..... That might be so for similar sized deep cycle versus start type batteries. Howeveer most people have very large multiple deep cycle batteries in a typical dual battery system compared to the smaller engine start batteery. ie 40 AH engine and 200 AH deep cycle service battery. The very large deep cycle should be able to cope with engine start current at least for occasional emergency start situations. Let's not panic people into thinking their deep cycle can't be used in an emergency. ol'will
Refueler
Well-known member
I question the 'most people have' .... may be true on here - where many are cruiser people do distances etc. but this forum I do not consider a good cross-section of the sailing community.
Many people are still on limited battery capacity's - many with a start and domestic of similar low total ...
Its actually not a simple matter of large capacity can cover the starting amps ... you have to appreciate that those amps are still passing out from soft plates regardless of how many batts make up that bank. Its not as if each plate is individually connected to the demand .. they are in series for each battery - then paralleled to create the capacity.
I agree that an emergency situation need - go ahead and I never said not to use .. my point was that true Deep Cycle is not designed for such start capability and should be born in mind when deciding what batterys to fit.
It is also relevant that a true Deep Cycle battery only provides a smallish amount more discharge capability than a cranker ! But the amp capability is significantly less.
I suggest that for most 'weekenders' - two crankers that are charged up literally continuously are adequate for the job. Its only when you start adding gear and using when charging is not in use - that deep cycle or the compromise leisure batterys really come into the mix.
My SR25 has two 90 A/hr crankers .. and I can easily go 10 days cruising with that .. with an average of 2hrs motor / 6 - 8hrs sail per day .. augmented by possibly one or two nights on pontoons with mains electric.
My Conq38 has three 90 A/hr crankers ... 1 for start, 2 for domestic. There is a 40W solar plus the Yanmar ... I have a fridge and a few more bits and bobs which dictated having the 3rd domestic ... - I expect to have same 10 day capability.
I really do not want to just keep adding batterys and weight ... charge requirements ....
Bristolfashion
Well-known member
Despite having 2 start/house batteries, I always carry a Li jump starter - belt and braces! They are small, provide start/phone charging/torch & handy for the car as well. They also make a good camping power pack.
I've just replaced one of these -
Advanced XD24 Dual Purpose Leisure Battery 90AH £85.50 from Advanced Battery supplies including free next day shipping. It was a same for same replacement with one of the two existing batteries - they were on the boat when we bought her, so of unknown age, but only one has died after 4 1/2 years of hard use, so I'm pretty happy.
We have 50W solar plus a Rutland wind generator. The new 50w was a distinct improvement. If starting from scratch, I'd look to have more solar - on a small boat, possibly a fixed small panel for general maintenance and a folding (or stowed) panel to plug in when tied up.
On our previous 28' we just had 50W of solar, which was plenty - but possibly 'cos we were in Australia!
If you're in a marina or visit them & get shore power,a small, high quality battery charger is a good thing - we don't (currently) do that on this boat, but did on the previous.
If you do end up with a 2 battery set up, a VSR is a pretty simple way to charge on battery first, then the other.
I've just replaced one of these -
Advanced XD24 Dual Purpose Leisure Battery 90AH £85.50 from Advanced Battery supplies including free next day shipping. It was a same for same replacement with one of the two existing batteries - they were on the boat when we bought her, so of unknown age, but only one has died after 4 1/2 years of hard use, so I'm pretty happy.
We have 50W solar plus a Rutland wind generator. The new 50w was a distinct improvement. If starting from scratch, I'd look to have more solar - on a small boat, possibly a fixed small panel for general maintenance and a folding (or stowed) panel to plug in when tied up.
On our previous 28' we just had 50W of solar, which was plenty - but possibly 'cos we were in Australia!
If you're in a marina or visit them & get shore power,a small, high quality battery charger is a good thing - we don't (currently) do that on this boat, but did on the previous.
If you do end up with a 2 battery set up, a VSR is a pretty simple way to charge on battery first, then the other.
NBs
Active member
Hi
This spring I went through a change to the lifeline AGM - eco worthy lifepo4.
It involved a lot of thinking, some disassembly, new wiring and a 50A DC-DC charger/mppt regulator and a new lifepo4 40A AC-DC charger. Now I can charge up to 125A at the same time while still letting the old victron phoneix connect to charge.
The life line batteries were lasting for 15 seasons, but they are very expensive 4*6V 220A = 440A 12V bank of which it makes sense to consume max half, for the same money I got all new systems and 2*280A = 560A lifepo4 bank of which I can take energy from without worry for a long time.
Time will tell if it was a good solution, but I will not go back to lead.
stu9000
Active member
It was not clear to me whether your leisure requirements are using the same battery as your starting requirements. Personally I'd have a separate source for each as it's just too stressful worrying that one might run the system down and have trouble starting thr engine. I currently have hankook 100ah lead acid leasure batteries for thr fridge and lighting etc. These are topped up with avictrom mppt controller and two solar panels. When it comes time to replace them I will seriously look at lithium as not having to worry about discharging too low is attractive. Prices on Ali express seem comparative, although one would have to do the homepwkr on quality and reputable vendor.
Refueler
Well-known member
I find it interesting and TBH - worrying that so many post that Lithium can be taken all way down and not worry ! mmmmm do it without BMS looking after the battery and you'll be out of pocket quick.
BMS is there for two equally important main reasons ... to prevent overcharging and to prevent over discharge.
There are many Li batterys out there that are not fitted with BMS - so you as buyer will have to sort that out. ... but those with good BMS will be of course more expensive.
BMS is there for two equally important main reasons ... to prevent overcharging and to prevent over discharge.
There are many Li batterys out there that are not fitted with BMS - so you as buyer will have to sort that out. ... but those with good BMS will be of course more expensive.
migs
Active member
Our £350 ‘L’ house battery has been powering a 400A bow thruster quite happily for the last 3 years - which incidentally is well within the battery manufacturer’s published specification i.e. our house battery would have no problem whatsoever starting our engine in the unlikely event that this was ever needed. The simple lead acid start battery in our car is now over 12 years old yet is still in fine condition, so I don’t expect the Optima Red Top in our boat will be failing anytime soon… For those that are interested, my article in last month’s PBO describes our boats 'L' battery electrical system in some detail.
Tranona
Well-known member
The OP has a small simple boat with modest electrical demands and limited charging capacity. While lithium does have value for some purposes, particularly when boats have higher electrical demands and used more intensively, for a 23' boat used for weekend coastal cruising lead acid, particularly AGMs is more than adequate if it is properly set up and maintained.
Refueler
Well-known member
OP' can have multiple repeats of Lead Acid over the life he owns the boat for 350 quid !!
fredrussell
Well-known member
Sorry, but that’s nonsense. If you google “12v LiFePo leisure battery” or just plain old “12v lithium battery” all the search results these days will be for a battery that INCLUDES a BMS. You can buy cells without a BMS, indeed many do, but if people are advertising a 12v leisure battery, if will come with a BMS fitted.
migs
Active member
'OP' can have multiple repeats of Lead Acid over the life he owns the boat for 350 quid !!'
Well, let’s compare like-with-like. A 12V 100Ah LiFePO4 (200Ah lead equivalent) would cost me about £50 at current prices. A 120Ah Numax lead acid from Tayna is £150.
The LFP battery will last 4000 cycles to 80% SoH, whereas you might get 400 from the lead acid. That makes the LFP battery 50 times cheaper in Ah time / £ …
Well, let’s compare like-with-like. A 12V 100Ah LiFePO4 (200Ah lead equivalent) would cost me about £50 at current prices. A 120Ah Numax lead acid from Tayna is £150.
The LFP battery will last 4000 cycles to 80% SoH, whereas you might get 400 from the lead acid. That makes the LFP battery 50 times cheaper in Ah time / £ …
Refueler
Well-known member
That SUPPORTS my post ...
Read my post again ... I was remarking about LiFe batterys that are sold WITHOUT BMS .... they are out there and they are not the best solution for the uninitiated !!
Second that a battery without BMS cannot be discharged fully as some think ... Li batterys are damaged by taking them below a voltage value (different value for each type of Li format) - the damage is accumulative - each time you do it .. and in fact if you have a 50 A/hr LifePo - you cannot actually use 50 A/hr ... that's b******.
Refueler
Well-known member
'OP' can have multiple repeats of Lead Acid over the life he owns the boat for 350 quid !!'
Well, let’s compare like-with-like. A 12V 100Ah LiFePO4 (200Ah lead equivalent) would cost me about £50 at current prices. A 120Ah Numax lead acid from Tayna is £150.
The LFP battery will last 4000 cycles to 80% SoH, whereas you might get 400 from the lead acid. That makes the LFP battery 50 times cheaper in Ah time / £ …
I would love to be able to buy "12V 100Ah LiFePO4" for 50 quid ... please where are you buying at that price ? Plus its interesting that you choose to quote a Lead Acid of higher price than I see on the shelf !! Selective comparison if ever there was !!
And please can you not bulls*** about it being 200A/Hr equivalent ... you are trying to say that a Lead Acid delivering 50% capacity as per advised max ... and that your LiFePo is delivering 100% ???
I have been using Lithium batterys of many different formats ... LiCo .. LiPo .. LifePo4 .. LiIon and all would suffer damage if discharged 100% .. and that damage is accumulative each time you do it ... doesn't matter whether big or small batterys .. the chemistry is same for per type.
Cycle life is bulls*** as well .. as most batterys live a life of perpetual high charge state ...
