What has happened to all the motorsailers?

[ashtead]

Each to their own, but for me the Amel wheel position might have been useful 30 years ago, before good autopilots, but is an anachronism and the worst possible solution today. The Amel wheel position would certainly be a deal breaker for me.

If you think about the way we tend to sail these days, I think twin wheels plus a Scandinavian windscreen and sprayhood (like modern Halberg Rassy, some X-Yachts etc) is ideal.
The only time people tend to hand steer is when manoeuvring (on off pontoons etc) and when enjoying the fun of sailing, when wind in the hair, sitting on the high side and being able to see the luff of the sails is what you want. An enclosed steering position is the worst option for these situations.
When motoring, when on passage, or when wet, most of us put the autopilot on - and on a wet night watch, sitting in the companionway looking through the windscreen with a mug of coffee is perfect. Why waste the precious dry space with a redundant steering position.

NB. I tend to sail in northern latitudes, and yet only had an oilskin jacket on about 4 days last season - and never during winter sailing.

If you add a zip in drop down cover to back of sprayhood works very well , have been watching RAN on utube in their Najad and looked a cozy addition to keep out cold etc and the baby warm etc We tuck down under our hard screen and sprayhood with the iPad paired to the Raymarine on auto under sail at night and works well . Just have to keep eye open for fishing boats and small yachts without AIS which don't show to well on radar either.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I have a friend who had a Nauticat 33. We sailed in company quite a few times in the Ionian where the wind is lacking in the morning and present in the afternoon. He’d disappear as we motored but as the wind picked up we’d rapidly overhaul him. I therefore wrote off the boat as “not much use for sailing”.
A bit later and he had to stop sailing and left the boat on the hard for a couple of years. He persuaded me to spend a few weeks helping him get her back in the water before selling her. Once we’d finished the work, we took her off for a bit of sailing. It was then apparent why we never had any trouble overtaking her. He didn’t sail her to anything near her capabilities: easing sail or reefing well before it was needed. I found that she sailed remarkably well and was enjoyable to work.
So, don’t dismiss motorsailers as boat that won’t sail: look at how well they do when they’re properly set up and given a chance. Still don’t want one though.....

Yes, thank you for that. This was my initial point. Its not the sailer, its the sailor.

Kinney, who designed quite a few of them (MS) while working for S&S, defined a motorsailer as a sailboat that could keep on making way to windward under power in winds over 25 to 32 m.p.h.

In this context all, or nearly all, contemporary sailboats are motorsailers.

And this is why defining the category is confusing.

The real trouble is that the necessarily poor sailing performances of the early types have cast a poor reputation on the entire genre. This is not helped by owners who have absolutely no interest in or are perhaps fearful of sailing ( the previous owner of my boat was not "permitted" to put up the main) or are overly fearful of going to sea ( hence the myth of motorsailer seaworthiness with it's built in storm rig)
I have heard plenty of times and from stout advocates of the type: "Why bother with more sail or flying a spinnaker or trying a feathering prop or fairing away hydrodynamic atrocities? It makes no difference, its a motorsailer!" Apparently, so I have been repeatedly assured, the only other option to not having to motor in a F2 or F3 which is to be beating yourself up.

It is worth noting that may boats that in their day were clearly considered to be sailboats and with perfectly acceptable SA/Dplmt ratios, have now become "motorsailers" ( Centaurs, Colvic 26 and Refueler's Sun Burst 25, etc.).

When people felt like sitting in the cold and poring rain for something that was supposed to be fun, was not so brilliant, designers and marketeers tried their best to find new labels for more permanent structures that would keep the wet off their occupants :
deck salons, hard dodgers or hard tops (those are ok, right, they put them on sports cars, don't they ?) wheelhouse yachts, pilothouse sailers and the new one: 'expedition style' (Who wouldn't like that? Conjures up all the right images of kaki Land Rovers with stacks of spare tires and jerry cans on the roof and they don't have to be super fast either.) ... Anything to get away from that catch-all misnomer for poor performance, a motorsailer.

The truth is: the motorsailer in the traditional 1930's sense is dead. What remains is a cruising yacht that is prepared to make a few concessions in out and out speed for the owner's comfortable enjoyment.

As for Rotax, our boat is a traveling machine and we go places. Fast passages are for us the norm, rather than the exception and yes, autopilots have changed the way we cruise. We enjoy sitting in our deep foredeck well, having tea, high and dry above the rumble of her bow wave while the boat rushes along at 7.5 kts.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

...

As for Rotax, our boat is a traveling machine and we go places. Fast passages are for us the norm, rather than the exception and yes, autopilots have changed the way we cruise. We enjoy sitting in our deep foredeck well, having tea, high and dry above the rumble of her bow wave while the boat rushes along at 7.5 kts.

Totally agree ref modern Autopilots.

Laminar Flow, what boat do you have?

 

[Sybarite]

This is kind of a follow-on to my earlier thread (confused about how to progress from a J42DS) but more specifically to ask "Why have practical, affordable motorsailers gone out of fashion?"

I have a lovely Jeanneau 42DS of my own but I spent the weekend on a friend's Salar 40 pictured below. It might not look like it but that's us sailing home in 25kts of snotty weather with pouring rain and 2m+ swell. And as you can see we were sitting in shorts & t-shirts enjoying a dry and warm passage able to control all the sails from inside. Admittedly, a modern production boat (similar to my own 42DS) slowly crept past us but was only doing about 0.5kts more and by comparison we could see them sitting in their open aft cockpit in heavy wet-weather gear getting cold and soaked.

And we call this progress?!

I realise that boats like the Salar are not to everyone's tastes and but surely the ability to stay warm, dry and comfortable never went out of fashion. And yes if you look carefully that is an external aft cockpit so yes you can even sail the boat from outside too if you like.

So why isn't there a modern equivalent of this? imagine a 40-45ft modern version of the Salar with all the ergonomic, performance and space benefits of modern yacht design plus the huge benefits of wheelhouse comfort? And at an affordable, production boat price point not expensive niche market semi-custom builds.

Surely there would be a market for such a boat especially for families? Not everyone sails in tropical or Med-like climates 365 days.

Or if I've missed the modern-day equivalent of the Salar 40 then someone please point me in the right direction as I'd be a serious buyer!

View attachment 91129View attachment 91130View attachment 91131

This one has been adapted. They have added an outside cockpit and steering position where the lazarette is. I have seen some Australian built ones which have a steering position on the aft deck but without the second cockpit.

Or maybe I am confusing it with the Vilm 117.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Each to their own, but for me the Amel wheel position might have been useful 30 years ago, before good autopilots, but is an anachronism and the worst possible solution today. The Amel wheel position would certainly be a deal breaker for me.

If you think about the way we tend to sail these days, I think twin wheels plus a Scandinavian windscreen and sprayhood (like modern Halberg Rassy, some X-Yachts etc) is ideal.
The only time people tend to hand steer is when manoeuvring (on off pontoons etc) and when enjoying the fun of sailing, when wind in the hair, sitting on the high side and being able to see the luff of the sails is what you want. An enclosed steering position is the worst option for these situations.
When motoring, when on passage, or when wet, most of us put the autopilot on - and on a wet night watch, sitting in the companionway looking through the windscreen with a mug of coffee is perfect. Why waste the precious dry space with a redundant steering position.

NB. I tend to sail in northern latitudes, and yet only had an oilskin jacket on about 4 days last season - and never during winter sailing.

I think the rationale for Amel’s wheel position is linked to their primary design being long distance offshore cruisers - in which case the boat is on autopilot for majority of time underway. The exceptions being arrival, departure and battling really bad weather when even the autopilot might be struggling - and on those occasions you’re usually going to be more comfortable under the wheelhouse than back in an exposed cockpit.

But I appreciate that’s not to everyone’s taste and a better compromise might be pilothouse design that allows both outdoor and indoor helm positions and decent performance under sail or engine.

And pilothouse is probably the closest modern equivalent to what I’m looking for. My only challenge is they seem to be setup so that you have to be outside to be sailing and if you’re inside you either need to be motoring or have your wet weather gear ready to go back outside and trim the sails if you’re sailing in bad weather.

So a pilothouse that also offers key sail controls from inside would be interesting (let’s say main & jibsheets plus reefing lines would be ideal)?

 

[Rob_Webb]

This one has been adapted. They have added an outside cockpit and steering position where the lazarette is. I have seen some Australian built ones which have a steering position on the aft deck but without the second cockpit.

Or maybe I am confusing it with the Vilm 117.

View attachment 91427

Yes think you’re correct that some of the Salar 40s built down this side of the world (NZ & Aus) have second aft cockpits with second helm stations. This is what my friend’s version has (as shown in the pic in my very original post) and offers the best of both worlds.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Totally agree ref modern Autopilots.

Laminar Flow, what boat do you have?

Totally agree ref modern Autopilots.

Laminar Flow, what boat do you have?

Approaching 6kts in just over 10 kts apparent
'Tis her in her full glory, C Watson 31.5

 

[Rob_Webb]

So if I accept that a pilothouse design is the nearest modern equivalent I’ll find to my requirements, then the challenge becomes options down this side of the world (NZ &Aus). Realistically in today’s Covid world I won’t be ‘popping up’ to Europe or US to browse boats anytime soon.

So the best Oceanis regional design I’ve found is Buizen:

Buizen (Sail) Boats For Sale

 

[langstonelayabout]

Unfortunately, they then end up as a permanently moored man-cave in the local marina when said missus realizes that the poor thing is so short-rigged that to actually get it sailing, will require her to be going out at such times when only the bravest of the brave would dare to and only then to save the lives of those foolish enough to have been caught out in a lesser vessel.

Ah, the sort of weather when you can hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' and 'Oh Fortuna' in the wind as you leave your mooring. Great fun sailing days but your wife will hate you forever for sailing...

 

[Laminar Flow]

Ah, the sort of weather when you can hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' and 'Oh Fortuna' in the wind as you leave your mooring. Great fun sailing days but your wife will hate you forever for sailing...

I thought it might have been "Nearer my God to Me", but I'll listen more closely next time and check with the wife.

 

[Kola]

Comfort and speed.

Marquesas to Hawaii 2230nm in 12 days.

53ft - 18 Ton - 8mm Aluminium 5083 Insulated - Double glazings, tempered - Engine Range 3200nm.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Comfort and speed.

Marquesas to Hawaii 2230nm in 12 days.View attachment 91485View attachment 91486View attachment 91487View attachment 91488View attachment 91489

53ft - 18 Ton - 8mm Aluminium 5083 Insulated - Double glazings, tempered - Engine Range 3200nm.

Very cool. But obviously a large expedition boat so slightly outside my plans & budget!

 

[Sybarite]

Her

Very cool. But obviously a large expedition boat so slightly outside my plans & budget!

Here is my choice now when the lottery comes through:

 

[Refueler]

I have always liked the 40+ sized HR's ..... and of course the Moody Eclipse 43.

So those are my 'Lottery Prize' buys.

 

[Habebty]

I have always liked the 40+ sized HR's ..... and of course the Moody Eclipse 43.

So those are my 'Lottery Prize' buys.

No one mentioned a Hans Christian, Very Nice.

 

[rotrax]

For those who might be interested if you google 2020 Island Packet SP Cruiser you can get a video trip around the latest model, the Mark 2.

Think I prefer the Mark 1 - but I would say that, would'nt I.....................

 

[E39mad]

I remember there was a lot of interest in this boat back in 1989. Most of it seemed to be ahead of the curve although again it's designed primarily for distance cruising:

40 for sale UK, boats for sale, used boat sales, Sailing Yachts For Sale 1989 Aventura 40 - Apollo Duck

 

[Sybarite]

I remember there was a lot of interest in this boat back in 1989. Most of it seemed to be ahead of the curve although again it's designed primarily for distance cruising:

40 for sale UK, boats for sale, used boat sales, Sailing Yachts For Sale 1989 Aventura 40 - Apollo Duck

I used to think that the design of this boat was ideal - after all it was Jimmy Cornell's concept. However apparently it was very disappointing in the execution.
One of the problems was that it used a header tank for the diesel where there was not enough capacity and so the engine would cut out in an unforeseeable manner (dixit : Elaine Bunting).

 

[Rob_Webb]

Interesting boat (Aventura 40) and sone of the design principles still make sense. But now looking very dated and a brave choice. For example 2 engines might have made sense back then but today’s light modern reliable diesels means single engine plus bowthruster would be a better combo for starters...

 

[Sticky Fingers]

@Rob_Webb, how trad or modern do you want?