DJE
Well-known member
Then you get those light wind days when the boats going upwind are sailing and those going downwind are motoring!
What has happened to all the motorsailers?
- Thread starter Rob_Webb
- Start date
TernVI
Well-known member
Some of those days are improved by using a big cruising chute and reaching downwind.
ryanroberts
Well-known member
Motorsailed my motorsailor for the first time to get out of the western solent last weekend. It was fairly lively and didn't see many other yachts making the same trip. Chickened out of the Needles channel and going far south enough to make it back into Poole without cheating. I much prefer to sail her but that big engine and dual controls sure are handy when you just want to be somewhere for a time
dancrane
Well-known member
Motor Sailer ............. what defines a Motor Sailer ?
I have a 1970s sailing yacht...large diesel in her...I can make passage and be reasonably sure of ETA.
She's often termed a Motor Sailer, but has no Wheelhouse / Pilot house ...
A Colvic Watson - I think we can all agree is a MS ... but what about the generalised use of the term ?
Somebody the other day quoted to me the old 'one horsepower per tonne of displacement' auxiliary theory, which once upon a time may have been deemed sufficient - or, more likely, was as much as the technology of the period could provide economically.
I don't think any new sailing yachts are given badly underpowered inboard engines - there's no need to. It's dazzling how much lighter today's Beta range is, per horsepower, than the same powered Volvo of 40 years ago, for which the Beta is often a replacement. So I don't think the option of motoring briskly to a destination, makes a yacht a motorsailer today.
To me, the meaning of the term includes the enviable quality which motorboat designers can include, and which their customers relish, without a thought for the effect on windage - a motor-sailer has an actual wheelhouse. No cowering behind a fabric sprayhood - an actual, enclosable helm that is as much a part of the accommodation as the saloon.
I don't even call most raised-saloon yachts, motorsailers - the indoor helm is so low (in order to smooth the upwind profile) that the view is poor - which I believe accounts for deck-saloon yacht owners reporting that they rarely steer from indoors. If one wants the option of a weatherproof helm, it's best achieved without compromise.
Collective readiness by 'pure' sailboat owners to use the engine shows that a lot of being afloat involves hurrying towards a goal and arriving as soon as possible, regardless of finer preferences; and we know that being on our home berth, or away, or anchored, fills a lot of time afloat...
...so as a return on the cost of a boat, the bright, draught-free, all-season views from a wheelhouse, and the option to instantly stop steering outside, according to choice, not necessity, are to me unbeatable. Pity these boats are also mostly unaffordable.
ryanroberts
Well-known member
To me, the meaning of the term includes the enviable quality which motorboat designers can include, and which their customers relish, without a thought for the effect on windage - a motor-sailer has an actual wheelhouse. No cowering behind a fabric sprayhood - an actual, enclosable helm that is as much a part of the accommodation as the saloon.
I don't even call most raised-saloon yachts, motorsailers - the indoor helm is so low (in order to smooth the upwind profile) that the view is poor - which I believe accounts for deck-saloon yacht owners reporting that they rarely steer from indoors. If one wants the option of a weatherproof helm, it's best achieved without compromise.
View from my helm is not useful when heeled to starboard, but there's a good standing position to press autopilot buttons from. She's has a low fattish hull. Biggest issue is that I can't keep a dinghy on deck without being blinded.
Refueler
Well-known member
1 HP per 1 Tonne ................. if that was the spec today - then my 25ftr should be 43 Tonnes displacement ......... she's 4 Tonne.
So my ratio is just over 10HP per 1 Tonne.
Yes I know ... WOW !!
But I can just start up .. put throttle at about 30% and maintain a nice 5kts ...
So my ratio is just over 10HP per 1 Tonne.
Yes I know ... WOW !!
But I can just start up .. put throttle at about 30% and maintain a nice 5kts ...
dancrane
Well-known member
I find all this very encouraging. I've never been convinced of the virtues of a very heavy boat with very small sails.
I passed 'Pomona' in Southampton Water in 2017...may I ask where and by how much you would increase her sail area?
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
We have 214%, or more than twice her SA. Our SA/Displ. ratio is 17.8, the original version has 9.4 ( actually less (8.6) as, I believe there is a calculation error in the published size of the mizzen). To note: a SA/Displ. ratio of 8 or less is a Mobo with steadying sail.
Refueler
Well-known member
Its interesting the subject of sail area increase ... I have for a long time been considering the addition of a Bowsprit and second foresail. To 1. reduce weather helm .. 2. to give more option in sail set.
Keeping the sail area relative low as well allows a greater area to be added while still having boat stable on the water. The moment arm is kept low.
One day I may do it ...
Keeping the sail area relative low as well allows a greater area to be added while still having boat stable on the water. The moment arm is kept low.
One day I may do it ...
TernVI
Well-known member
It's not my kind of boat, but if people are enjoying being on the water that's great.
I'm fairly focussed on sailing performance, so I wouldn't start from there.
I sail where you can sit out the gales and rarely need to really rough it.
I have good friends who get a lot out of having that kind of boat, but it's not for me just now.
Maybe no point compromising what it is, for most people.
I have good friends with pure motor boats too.
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
People are looking for different things of course.
We live on board for 3-4 months each year, cruising continuously, and a light displacement type just wouldn't work for us with all the clutter and tools we carry about.
Displacement is, to put it simply, the enemy of speed and it pays to view a heavy boat as a closed, finite system in terms of performance.
That is the compromise. But too much is made of what that means in practical and real terms.
A ketch rig will never be "close winded", no matter what someone tells you; the only thing worse is a schooner and I have sailed on those as well. The mizzen, to weather, is just along for the ride and does not contribute anything other than drag. I do not like the rig other than that it might look "pretty"; This is the second ketch I've owned and I've finally come to accept that I must suffer from some rare form of learning disability.
That pilothouse we carry around on deck has a drag coefficient that would make the average garden shed look sleek. We would not trade it for anything in the world. Then there is the aircraft carrier like freeboard and a nearly 2m high bow. They do keep an awful lot of that wet stuff off the boat and make the average 31 footer tied up alongside look like a toy.
So, how much does all that impact my windward ability? I don't know and frankly, I don't care. Unlike my underwater appendages, I have not quantified the additional resistance these features cause.
Considering that a ketch is only 80% as efficient to windward as a sloop, it would be pretty pointless. That said, we have managed 4.8kts at 35 degr. in 12kts apparent (just under 8kts true). Flattish water of course.
In real performance terms we are as quick as any other "classic" cruiser, just not to weather, perhaps, garden shed an' all. A long keel generates additional frictional resistance, true, but easily overcome with a bit more sail. And yes, she will not plane and my wife would have my liver, if I tried.
DJE
Well-known member
You pays your money and you takes your choice. No I can't stay indoors in bad weather but in those conditions I would be doing about 6 knots at about 28 degrees apparent with a big smile on my face.
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
Good for you. What do you sail?
DJE
Well-known member
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
I have not been a member on this forum for very long, but I have come to understand that an Anderson 22 is the benchmark one has to aspire to. Sadly, no such luck with a Watson.
In relative speed terms your fine yacht (and I do mean that in all sincerity) is near enough a factor of 0,1 faster than my tub.
It is easy to forget that my boat is only 31.5' long on a DWL of 28.1'.
Your DWL is longer (31.5', not counting the shallow stern overhang) and your SA/Displ. ratio is two points higher.
28 degr. versus 35 is pretty exactly the 20% difference I predicted for our two rigs.
Considering your very fine boat with it's tall and narrow rig would be predictably superior to my Watson to weather, all considered, I might have been a bit harsh on my old girl; she's does a lot better than I had thought.
Wansworth
Well-known member
Could have taken the fenders in maybe an indication of mind set of owner.......
Iliade
Well-known member
How about adding a load of sail at the top of the rig? i.e. Convert to gaff! Loads of power off the wind and loads of horsepower available for sailing to windward. Plus imho it would look far better with those short masts and traditional hull. And add a triatic* sail.
* I've forgotten what they are properly called.
I have a Beneteau Evasion 34, an unashamed 50:50 motorsailer in amore modern less traditional style. She too has a `missing ten feet off the mast ` issue, but the advantage is that I mostly only get to sail when it is a little breezy and can carry plain sail in over 15kt upwind (20kt over the deck) and actually outpace some of the local racing boats. I carefully tie the fenders back in place when doing so and would go inside if it was raining or cold, but they never seem to be out when it is... ;0)
Off the wind I have a 150% heavyweight genoa I made for my old Listang which is a perfect fit on the staysail stay and seems to yield an extra knot or so over the original staysail. Having too much draft it was rubbish on the Listang!
* I've forgotten what they are properly called.
I have a Beneteau Evasion 34, an unashamed 50:50 motorsailer in a
Off the wind I have a 150% heavyweight genoa I made for my old Listang which is a perfect fit on the staysail stay and seems to yield an extra knot or so over the original staysail. Having too much draft it was rubbish on the Listang!
howardclark
Active member
this is my motorsailer - advantages - easy to keep dry and warm
lots of power for rough seas & comfortable ride
disadvantage- really only that the steering isn’t as much fun as a tiller.
ryanroberts
Well-known member
My hydraulics do feel a bit lifeless compared to wheel or tiller
Refueler
Well-known member
Lovely. Bet you are really proud of her.
