What has happened to all the motorsailers?

[Laminar Flow]

How about adding a load of sail at the top of the rig? i.e. Convert to gaff! Loads of power off the wind and loads of horsepower available for sailing to windward. Plus imho it would look far better with those short masts and traditional hull. And add a triatic* sail.

* I've forgotten what they are properly called.


I have a Beneteau Evasion 34, an unashamed 50:50 motorsailer in a more modern less traditional style. She too has a `missing ten feet off the mast ` issue, but the advantage is that I mostly only get to sail when it is a little breezy and can carry plain sail in over 15kt upwind (20kt over the deck) and actually outpace some of the local racing boats. I carefully tie the fenders back in place when doing so and would go inside if it was raining or cold, but they never seem to be out when it is... ;0)

Off the wind I have a 150% heavyweight genoa I made for my old Listang which is a perfect fit on the staysail stay and seems to yield an extra knot or so over the original staysail. Having too much draft it was rubbish on the Listang!

I agree with you that for some of these traditional hulls a gaff rig would be more suitable, with a low CE and a superior performance off the wind. There were some very few Watsons built that way. Modifying a "modern" Bermudan to gaff is not practicable (financially and technically) and most rigs on contemporary MS seem to be deck-stepped as well.

Your next point. I'm afraid, I'll have to disagree with you and this is precisely what killed the "traditional" MS, IMHO:
Boats that were designed with a factory standard storm rig. I mean, why bother with sails in light conditions at all, when that big engine will get you there much faster and way more efficiently? Unless you have a variable pitch prop, the entire, old concept of "motorsailing" is simply inefficient; anyone who does not believe this is welcome to "do the math".
My wife is not overly fond of the rough stuff and nor are many other families. Yet, even with our old rig, which was already 130% larger than standard, the sea state, when the old girl would finally get going, was already unpleasant enough.
Since (more than) doubling our boat's SA, we make satisfactory progress in a F2, sail much better to windward (lift is a factor to the square of the speed), motor 75% less than we used to and the boat is much less rolly in a seaway, as both speed and increased SA have a stabilizing effect.

So what is a motorsailer, since all modern sailing boats have a powerful engine?
A couple of years ago we cruised to Sweden. We were late in the season and at some point we realized we needed to get back, as the country and the weather had started to shut down. Together with a couple of other yachts we sheltered in Simrishamn, waiting out some weather. At some point we felt things had settled down enough for the next leg south and three of us headed out. There was a 40 foot sloop, a smaller 30' German sloop and us. We were all under sail, close hauled. The larger boat lead the way, we stuck back with the little sloop, although it was out-pointing us.
By the next headland the wind had picked up unexpectedly and as we came around the corner, it was now blowing a F8. The sea was completely white with breaking waves. It was utter mayhem and we would have to to turn straight into it. 3 miles to windward was a small harbour called Kaseberga, not our original target and just the size of a couple of tennis courts. We furled the sails, started the engine and headed straight for it. We managed to make headway through the breaking seas, but only just and every locker threw up it's contents with pots and pans and books shooting all over the deck. We were taking over so much water that the dorades where overwhelmed and water was finding it's way through the sliding windows in the wheelhouse. It was not until the last terrifying moments that we could make out the entrance in the surf and thankfully slid into the surreal stillness of the port. The crew from the large sloop that had arrived some time ahead of us ( and luckily before things had gotten really bad) took our lines.
We spent the next tree hours keeping an anxious lookout for the little sloop, until it finally made port with it's exhausted and thoroughly drenched owner and him in a severe state of sea shock.
We had him over for dinner that evening and he told us his boat had seemed to have been mostly underwater and that he hadn't been able to make headway under power or sail and only at the last moment, when he had already decided to return all the way back to Simrishamn (some 4-5hours), the winds had temporarily eased and he had managed to get in, just.

And there you have it. That is, in my humble opinion, what defines a motorsailer: to be able to make headway in adverse conditions and under power alone. To keep it's crew dry, and as far as possible, comfortable while doing so is an additional bonus.

 

[Iliade]

I think that we actually agree on my second point, though maybe in a roundabout way ;0)

EDIT - I see my error:

I wrote: '...but the advantage is that I mostly only get to sail when it is a little breezy'
but meant: '...but the advantage is that SINCE I mostly only get to sail when it is a little breezy'

i.e. work intervenes if it isn't breezy.

 

[LittleSister]

disadvantage- really only that the steering isn’t as much fun as a tiller.

My hydraulics do feel a bit lifeless compared to wheel or tiller

Some of us have motor-sailers that can be steered either by wheel from the wheelhouse, or by tiller (with or without the wheel disconnected) from the cockpit.

 

[38mess]

My take on this is motor sailers are aimed at the older sailor who perhaps doesn't want to be bashed about in the elements anymore, and they usually have a couple of Bob going spare.

 

[rotrax]

Exactly so.

Bob Johnson who designed our Island Packet SP Cruiser found many of the 'more mature' owners changing to trawler motor yachts from centre cockpit and aft cockpit Island Packet yachts.
The SP Cruiser gave them a modern motorsailer that was absent from the market. Many chose the option.

Like all boats it is a compromise, but a compromise that suits our sailing very well.

It can make fair progress in the right conditions under sail, excellent progress when the wind will not serve under the iron jib and is very comfortable alongside or on the hook.

Which is exactly what we require.

But the limited performance under sail would be a stopper for many.

 

[LittleSister]

My take on this is motor sailers are aimed at the older sailor who perhaps doesn't want to be bashed about in the elements anymore, and they usually have a couple of Bob going spare.

Probably generally true, especially these days, but the LM27 and LM24 were originally marketed towards young families. See the following brochure:
LM2427folder.pdf

 

[fredrussell]

Laminar Flow, I’ve always wondered why the front windows on your wheelhouse lean forward, so to speak? Is there some benefit from it or is it purely aesthetic? It can’t help with the aerodynamics surely?

 

[Poignard]

View attachment 96131
this is my motorsailer - advantages - easy to keep dry and warm
lots of power for rough seas & comfortable ride
disadvantage- really only that the steering isn’t as much fun as a tiller.

Question for you Howard:

Would you call her a motor-sailer if she didn't have a wheelhouse?

She seems a lot more yachtlike than many of the motor-sailers one sees.

 

[Refueler]

Motor Sailer is a term that IMHO has no real definable boundary's .............. much like when does a Cruiser become a Racer ... etc.

The term will be used by the person concerned in respect of what THEY consider is a Motor Sailer.

I've heard Colvic 26's ... Centaurs ... and similar termed Motor Sailers .. where I would consider they are more a cruiser ..

My fav boat - the Moody Eclipse 43 ..... is that a Motor Sailer or a Cruiser ? It does both very well.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Laminar Flow, I’ve always wondered why the front windows on your wheelhouse lean forward, so to speak? Is there some benefit from it or is it purely aesthetic? It can’t help with the aerodynamics surely?

Yes, I suspect you're right, that they are aesthetic or simply an affectation: as in fishboat-tough. Other than downwind, they assuredly contribute nothing to the aerodynamics. It could be argued that they keep some of the rain off the glass and the forward projection provides a fine place for the overhead instruments and keeps out some of the sun's glare.
I'm near certain that the Watsons were designed as a marketing response to the Fishers; if the Fishers had it, they had to have it too. That said, some Watsons have a more yachty, back leaning wind shield. Not sure that alone makes them any quicker.

 

[Poignard]

Motor Sailer is a term that IMHO has no real definable boundary's .............. much like when does a Cruiser become a Racer ... etc.

The term will be used by the person concerned in respect of what THEY consider is a Motor Sailer.

I've heard Colvic 26's ... Centaurs ... and similar termed Motor Sailers .. where I would consider they are more a cruiser ..

My fav boat - the Moody Eclipse 43 ..... is that a Motor Sailer or a Cruiser ? It does both very well.

I always thought it was to avoid dazzle or glare. Many ships have bridge windows sloping that way.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I always thought it was to avoid dazzle or glare. Many ships have bridge windows sloping that way.

Yes, and they also allow you to look more directly down, onto the deck. The ferry I worked on for a while as quartermaster had them as well.

 

[Poignard]

Yes, and they also allow you to look more directly down, onto the deck. The ferry I worked on for a while as quartermaster had them as well.

'

Making it easier for the Mate to keep an eye on any of the crew who might be skiving off!

 

[Laminar Flow]

My take on this is motor sailers are aimed at the older sailor who perhaps doesn't want to be bashed about in the elements anymore, and they usually have a couple of Bob going spare.

Perhaps I have always been old, then.
When I was twelve, my Mother packed me on a train in southern Germany and sent me to England to spend my summer with my Grandmother ( quite probably illegal these days). My uncle had every single copy of PBO and I spent my time reading and looking at the Colvic adds for their hull&deck moldings. The motersailers were clearly the best; they, after all, looked like real ships. I quickly calculated that if I carefully saved my allowance for a mere hundred and twenty-five years, I would be able to afford the hull and for just eighty-five more (and a few birthday wishes thrown in as well) the matching deck.
45 years later I bought one of these boats, though by then I had forgotten about the evident imprinting I had been subjected to as a child.
Trapped into buying such a geriatric vessel, I have since done everything to make her sail as well as she can. She is now faster, more close winded, more enjoyable to sail and steer and if anything, more comfortable and safe in a seaway.
And, so the circle closes.

 

[Refueler]

I always thought it was to avoid dazzle or glare. Many ships have bridge windows sloping that way.

None of the boats I mentioned have reverse slope windows ... in fact none of them have pilothouses .. except the Eclipse.... and that is not reverse sloped.

 

[Refueler]

Perhaps I have always been old, then.
When I was twelve, my Mother packed me on a train in southern Germany and sent me to England to spend my summer with my Grandmother ( quite probably illegal these days). My uncle had every single copy of PBO and I spent my time reading and looking at the Colvic adds for their hull&deck moldings. The motersailers were clearly the best; they, after all, looked like real ships. I quickly calculated that if I carefully saved my allowance for a mere hundred and twenty-five years, I would be able to afford the hull and for just eighty-five more (and a few birthday wishes thrown in as well) the matching deck.
45 years later I bought one of these boats, though by then I had forgotten about the evident imprinting I had been subjected to as a child.
Trapped into buying such a geriatric vessel, I have since done everything to make her sail as well as she can. She is now faster, more close winded, more enjoyable to sail and steer and if anything, more comfortable and safe in a seaway.
And, so the circle closes.

If you buy a Watson ... you are basically buying a boat based on an inshore fishing boat hull and a working pilot house ... never designed to be a sail only vessel.

In terms of older boats ... I also have a liking for the Macwester Seaforth ... not so much for the Wight as that hasn't that bit of length to do it justice. The Seaforth despite its heaviness and hull - can sail ... not fast - but will sail ...

I also like a Ketch ...

Of course there's also the Waterwitch ... but now we are entering the world of the classics .... Golden Hinds ... Hilyards ... Riptides ... etc.

You may have been brought up on Watsons ... but I was brought up on Hilyards etc.

I actually told my Father that if he did not buy a certain boat he was offered .. he would sail his next alone. An Airline Capt friend of my Father had a Kings Amethyst moored in the Beaulieu River ... it had been modified to single handed sailing. Basically it was offered to my Father at knock down price ...
My Father declined ...

There are few boats that I have stepped on and just felt ... this is the one ... That Kings Amethyst may have been many years ago - but I can still smell that wood and remember her ... an absolute beauty on the water.
You can keep all your modern stuff .. that KA was IT !

 

[38mess]

Perhaps I have always been old, then.
When I was twelve, my Mother packed me on a train in southern Germany and sent me to England to spend my summer with my Grandmother ( quite probably illegal these days). My uncle had every single copy of PBO and I spent my time reading and looking at the Colvic adds for their hull&deck moldings. The motersailers were clearly the best; they, after all, looked like real ships. I quickly calculated that if I carefully saved my allowance for a mere hundred and twenty-five years, I would be able to afford the hull and for just eighty-five more (and a few birthday wishes thrown in as well) the matching deck.
45 years later I bought one of these boats, though by then I had forgotten about the evident imprinting I had been subjected to as a child.
Trapped into buying such a geriatric vessel, I have since done everything to make her sail as well as she can. She is now faster, more close winded, more enjoyable to sail and steer and if anything, more comfortable and safe in a seaway.
And, so the circle closes.

I have always aspired to a fisher 32, it ticks most of the boxes, but couldn't afford one...30 years ago I just missed out on a lovely colvic Watson 26. I ended up with a moody 30, nice boat, but no wheelhouse just a spray hood. Now I'm back in the market for a boat, that fisher might just come my way ?

 

[Laminar Flow]

I have always aspired to a fisher 32, it ticks most of the boxes, but couldn't afford one...30 years ago I just missed out on a lovely colvic Watson 26. I ended up with a moody 30, nice boat, but no wheelhouse just a spray hood. Now I'm back in the market for a boat, that fisher might just come my way ?

My late uncle lived in Itchenor, before it all went unbearably posh. We did a sort of pilgrimage there, last summer, anchoring at East Head.
I used to walk through the old North Shore yard admiring all the Fishers on the hard. They always looked just so damned right. Still do, but until you get up into the 34, the wheelhouse is just a wee bit pokey.

 

[LittleSister]

In contrast to some of the tales above, I didn't set out to buy a motor-sailer at all!

I was looking for a sailing cruiser about 28ft, and was disappointed after investigating and viewing a number of them - either pokey design or - surprisingly common - only really kitted out for day sailing. I can't remember how I came to view the LM27, but this one was well equipped and I was immediately taken by the general 'open' feel and Scandinavian interior of the LM, the numerous clever little design features, and especially the old-fashioned butterfly hatch in the saloon (early models only) that gave so much light and air. The clincher was that in the wheelhouse the kettle is within arm's reach of the helm - a pukka cruiser!

 

[Laminar Flow]

If you buy a Watson ... you are basically buying a boat based on an inshore fishing boat hull and a working pilot house ... never designed to be a sail only vessel.

The lineage of the older fishing boat styles goes directly back to their sailing ancestors. If one compares the profiles of traditional sailing vessels with those of the Watson , they are very similar.
Where the shapes of motorized fishing craft began to diverge, is that the hulls became much more burdensome to support the incredible weight of the early engines. As a result CP increased with much blunter entry angles; this is not beneficial for sailing to windward as it increases the resistance in waves. A higher CP however indicates a hull designed for higher (hull) speeds. This makes sense for a power driven vessel that can choose it's range of speed.

Motorsailers, in general, have a higher CP than pure sailing boats.
Sailing boats in the norm are around 0.54; motorsailers 0.60 and above.

It is "easier", in terms of resistance, for a high CP to go slow than a low CP to go fast.

In a design brief for the Watson 32 it was specifically mentioned that the entry lines had been slimmed down to improve sailing ability. CP for the 32 is 0.61.
The 32 has the slimmest (if one is allowed to use that adjective in this context) Beam/Lenght ratio of all the Watsons.
Compared to the Fishers and Banjers (which I both like) the Watson lines show a much firmer bilge and flatter underwater sections, indicating better roll resistance and initial stability. The wide aft body resists squatting and shows a fairly flat, clean run.

Under sail:
As originally designed, they are severely underrigged. In spite of this they have a relatively decent Ballast/displacement ratio, good beam and a hard bilge that can easily support more sail.
The original rudder/deadwood design is, sadly, very crude and severely impedes her sailing abilities.
Fix these two items and you get a responsive sailer, in the context of a long keel boat, that can carry her full 71.6 sqm of sail (new, now) up to 22kts.
Her wake is remarkably flat and clean up to 20 degr. heel, at which point it pays to reef and pick up at least another knot for the effort.
We have easily sustained speeds of 7.5 kts continuously, even 7.8kts. Top speed, ever, was 8.2kts. This is not surfing down waves, but in flat water, through the water and under sail only, of course.
Her windward ability is what one would expect from a ketch with her type of underwater configuration and is, in cruising terms, perfectly acceptable. With our new rig we have averaged 6kts over 210 miles in 35 hours and 6.8kts over 70 miles.

She is not a racer, but she is damned comfortable and we do, rather frequently, "surprise" some other boats we encounter.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are its a duck (or a sailboat, as that may be).

Edit: I used to own a ketch rigged Waterwitch. She was a project when I got her, but she came with a set of brand spanking new sails, cruising chute and all. With her 8hp Lister no one would have ever thought to call her a motorsailer.
It is my considered opinion that my current, upgraded, Watson, a motorsailer, no doubt, would have sailed rings around her and is (now) much better balanced to boot. She looked pretty enough riding to her anchor, once I got her all painted up, but I should not miss her lack of headroom.