What has happened to all the motorsailers?

[LittleSister]

Thanks L.S., they still make a very persuasive case all round.

Have you any idea what proportion of LM 27s had the bilge plates, enabling drying out upright on hard surfaces?

Not many, I would think. I think the bilge plates would have been fitted to LM24s and LM27s either to order by the UK importer, Scanyacht, or by subsequent owners. (Scanyacht also bought the moulds after LM ceased production of the LM27 and built a de-luxe version (with options of deeper keel/taller rig and different internal layouts) called the Scanyacht 290.)

The later series LM motor-sailers - LM26, LM28, LM30 & LM32 - were mainly fin keel, but some were (factory fitted) twin bilge keels. There seem to be fewer of those in the UK and they tend to be more expensive than the 24s and 27s. (LM also built non-wheelhouse fin keel yachts, but I think there are very few, if any, in the UK.)

 

[Laminar Flow]

On deck salons, soft dodgers, hard dodgers and wheelhouses ...
A few years ago I sailed a large twin screw, lifting keel, centre cockpit cutter from Central Europe to the Canadian West Coast via Panama. She had a decksalon with inside steering. Before leaving we added a bimini over the cockpit.

We used the inside steering once, during a storm on the way to the Canaries, as I found that I didn't like the restrictive visibility. So we steered mostly from the cockpit from under the bimini.
Going up the West Coast we added a perspex windshield to the front of the bimini. This was a huge improvement. and provided us essentially with a soft, full height, covered steering station. We never took it down after. It was open to the sides and rear.

Later I replaced this with a carefully styled hard top with enclosed sides, a large sliding plexi hatch and open to the rear. This again was a huge improvement in the soggy weather of the Pacific Northwest.

I have also sailed a boat across the North Pacific and back that had a hard dodger and with which we went through a couple of storms.

In conclusion there is really no comparison between a soft or hard dodger and a proper wheelhouse. A good wheelhouse is not just the place you navigate from, it is part of the accommodation and as such we live in ours. The actual "downstairs" salon is really just for cooking, getting the clothes on, bathroom facilities and sleeping, for all else there's the WH. As a navigational centre, I have found the visibility of deck salons too restrictive. In that sense they are neither here nor there.

I always supposed that redrawing something like the F25's sailplan so the skipper is obliged by physics to pull in a reef after force 4, was the sort of change which owners' associations and designers and insurers would decry as inherently unsound. I didn't want to believe that, because it seems to me reefing options today are clever enough that an average crew can tame a very powerful rig with ease, so there really is nothing prudent or preferable about the 'snug' undersized sailplans that motorsailers were typically given.

True, I never understood that is was perfectly acceptable for "sailboats" to have to reef , while motorsailers were issued with factory standard storm rigs. Not even Colin Archer's sailing lifeboats, designed to go out in the thick of it, were that "snuggly" garbed. In the 60's and 70's the only proper seagoing boat was a ketch; to keep those sails manageable in pre-furling times. Occasionally this was taken to absurdum in some of the smaller MS. Today there is really no excuse for it.
Many of the traditional brands, while they were still around, if they are still around at all, saw the light and gradually increased their rigs. The Banjer 37's started out with 28sqms and the final model had 100sqms. The Fishers as well upped their SA and I understand that a new 25 is to be brought to market with an enhanced rig, for the small price of a kidney and a half, no doubt.
I firmly believe that many of the old, traditional MS can have their sailing ability improved, with some preparatory insight, experience, as well as some basic engineering and calculation to make sure the old girl can stand up to the new rig.

On owner's associations: Some are so unimaginably conservative, they would make even the Vatican seem like a group of liberally unhinged free-thinkers.
For what an owner's association group/site might look like, I can suggest the Banjer site. They have not just all the usual "the burgee flies prettily" offerings but also post relevant technical data, as well as the lines and all the important hydrostatic data. Encouragingly, they also support a segment on making improvements to the brand rather than the resident, and usually, self-appointed, imam issuing a fatwa for anyone who does or even suggests it. It helps that the Banjer site is hosted by a naval architect, who actually knows what he is doing and talking about.

 

[LittleSister]

I firmly believe that many of the old, traditional MS can have their sailing ability improved, with some preparatory insight, experience, as well as some basic engineering and calculation to make sure the old girl can stand up to the new rig.

I'm working on my plans for a high-aspect ratio rigged foiling LM27 as we speak.

 

[Refueler]

Its not just amount of sail area .. its balancing act. Many Motor Sailers tend to be beamy and well rounded bilges ... if you raise the CoE - that round bilge could lead to a boat that tends to lay over - negating the expected gains.
A lot of motor sailers or the heavier built cruisers tend to have weather helm or other trait that robs efficiency of rig. So re-distribution or alter sail plan without significant area increase can improve matters.

Just my thoughts .....

My Bow Sprit idea for my boat is based in that ... and also the thought to use a large genny from the race boat I sold as a cruising chute .....

 

[Laminar Flow]

I'm working on my plans for a high-aspect ratio rigged foiling LM27 as we speak.

I always thought the LMs sailed quite well within context of the breed, but I await the fruition of your plans with baited breath.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Its not just amount of sail area .. its balancing act. Many Motor Sailers tend to be beamy and well rounded bilges ... if you raise the CoE - that round bilge could lead to a boat that tends to lay over - negating the expected gains.
A lot of motor sailers or the heavier built cruisers tend to have weather helm or other trait that robs efficiency of rig. So re-distribution or alter sail plan without significant area increase can improve matters.

Just my thoughts .....

My Bow Sprit idea for my boat is based in that ... and also the thought to use a large genny from the race boat I sold as a cruising chute .....

Agreed, and I am not suggesting anyone rush into supercharging their old faithful without exercising due diligence. Before making significant changes I would always suggest calculating righting moments at say, 30 & 20 degr., to confirm the boat could stand up to the canvas. (There are a number of ways to do this on an existing vessel) Aiming for a certain SA/Displ ratio is one thing, whether the boat actually has enough RM is another.
The same goes for investigating sail balance and an imbalanced boat will never perform to it's potential.

A 25 footer that doesn't have to reef until in a F8 is ridiculously underrigged and perhaps shouldn't be out sailing, recreationally at least, in the kind of weather necessary to reach it's potential.

Wide(r) beam is not necessarily a bad thing and in itself does not produce an imbalanced boat. Imbalance is the result of a longitudinal shift in buoyancy when heeled or the result of an imbalanced sail plan. This is exacerbated in beamy boats when the designer tries to keep the entry angles tight (to reduce wave resistance) and the sterns wide (to resist squatting). This lead to a whole crop of badly behaved IOR sponsored creations. No one ever accused the Watson, Fisher, Banjer etc. crowd of having overly fine bows.

The truth is that "professional" designers just don't get it always right and with a healthy portion of "it don't matter, it's just a motorsailer' thrown in.
The fact that I could add a six foot bowsprit to our boat and achieve a nicely balanced outcome, simply shows how far off the original design had been.

 

[Greenheart]

...the old, traditional MS can have their sailing ability improved, with some preparatory insight, experience, as well as some basic engineering and calculation to make sure the old girl can stand up to the new rig.

It's not just amount of sail area...it's a balancing act. Many Motor Sailers tend to be beamy with well rounded bilges...if you raise the CoE - that round bilge could lead to a boat that tends to lay over - negating the expected gains.

Surely the point is not to encourage exaggerated or uncontrolled heeling, but only to carry enough sail to enable the boat to heel (indicating that it's actually being driven hard) earlier than its designer's overly-cautious sail-area allowed...

..suppose we call 20° of heel the point at which we decide it's time to reef...that 'point H' may be reached in (I'm guessing) 12 knots of headwind aboard a lightweight race-boat; traditionally, the offshore cruiser was meant to need 20 knots before she heeled 20 degrees; and I'm inferring that Northshore were claiming their baby needed a full force 8. Scarcely a boast!

So giving a motorsailer a much, much bigger than standard sail area, isn't a bid to make her go faster at the limit, but just to reach that limit in less wind...beyond which, she needs to be reefed, exactly as a lighter yacht would.

I'm working on my plans for a high-aspect ratio rigged foiling LM27 as we speak.

Careful now, L.S...that kind of insincerity keeps owners' association members smug about their boats' shortcomings!

I too have heard good things about the unmodified LM 27's sailing characteristics. Believable, since they sold 1,500.

 

[Landfall]

So much wisdom here, from everybody contributing.

I want a wheelhouse more and more. I suppose it's better to be reluctant to buy the yacht one can afford because of its shortcomings, than to buy it despite what it doesn't have, and regret it.

Rather amusing that in one of the UK's rare, 30°+ Celsius spells, we're unanimous about the virtues of cold weather-protection...

...though it has been pointed out that sun-protection is another motorsailer benefit. A pity that rain and chill-factor issues can't be solved aboard open-decked yachts by an afterthought as simple as a Bimini top.

Refueler, I was very keen to believe that a fabric/plastic windowed sprayhood or tent could substitute for a hard shelter, because adding one to an open cockpit could save me finding double the budget for the same-sized boat with a sheltered helm...

...I realise that an all-over cover such as is pictured above, is probably not what your boat has, and I must state that I don't think the people who make those tents, intend them for use in boisterous weather at sea...

...but everyone I've asked said they're no substitute for a wheelhouse...drips don't run off clear plastic the way they run off glass; there is no wiper option; and in gale conditions, there's the ugly possibility of the whole fabric structure being carried away by green water coming aboard...

...the advice being that they're fine for increasing accommodation space in camping weather, but that at sea, when you might want to retreat inside a wheelhouse, any non-solid structure is even more vulnerable than the people attempting to benefit from it. The LM motorsailers seem to have provided the smart answer to that, with a solid steering shelter and a full high-quality cockpit canopy supplied as a factory option.

The idea of creating a glassfibre 'bolt-on' hardtop for a Westerly Centaur is very appealing, not only because it would add a season-extending dimension to owning one. Am I wrong in thinking it likely that if a two or three-piece bolt-on/bolt-off Centaur cockpit roof could be designed, reinforced, moulded and constructed at reasonable price, allowing dry and draught-proof sailing at all times of year, there might be hundreds of interested customers amongst the 2,000+ owners out there?

Rotrax, I hadn't realised that you can only helm outside, 'by wire'. Are you really not tempted to try out the tech? I would want to know if I could depend on it, and its response time, for possible emergencies that called me away from the inside wheel. Plus, aren't there occasions when you're relaxing in the 'jacuzzi' and have to attend the indoor wheel to be sure of avoiding a possible collision course?



Not sure whether, as a new member here, you provided a picture which we can't yet see, Landfall? Or is it only me?

Laminar Flow, what you've done with your boat's rig seems from my point of view to answer every objection I ever heard, made against conventional heavy motorsailer design. I recall Northshore claiming - proudly - that the Fisher 25's rig could cope with 35 knots of wind, without reefing. They didn't comment on what that meant for boatspeed in, for example, 15 knots, when any yacht designed with sailing considered foremost, might expect to be moving at or close to hull speed.

I always supposed that redrawing something like the F25's sailplan so the skipper is obliged by physics to pull in a reef after force 4, was the sort of change which owners' associations and designers and insurers would decry as inherently unsound. I didn't want to believe that, because it seems to me reefing options today are clever enough that an average crew can tame a very powerful rig with ease, so there really is nothing prudent or preferable about the 'snug' undersized sailplans that motorsailers were typically given.

The fact that underpowered rigs persist today aboard last century's numerous motorsailers, and are accepted by owners as the par for their chosen course, must be the reason for so much scorn expressed by 'purists' about these otherwise brilliantly versatile boats.

I did add a photo but it hasn’t worked I will try again

 

[Landfall]

Still can’t see to attach a photo I am selecting a photo from my library selecting it and then post reply but only the narrative appears.?

 

[Landfall]

Worked that time
didn’t do anything different any way
“still would not change it for the world”

 

[LittleSister]

I did add a photo but it hasn’t worked I will try again

Still can’t see to attach a photo I am selecting a photo from my library selecting it and then post reply but only the narrative appears.?

Worked that time

You not allowed to insert photos until you've made a few other posts. You've obviously clocked up enough now.

Nice boat!

 

[Laminar Flow]

Still can’t see to attach a photo I am selecting a photo from my library selecting it and then post reply but only the narrative appears.?

Nice boat, what is she?

 

[Landfall]

She is a landfall 39 built in Taiwan in 1982 to a Ron amey design
Plans later sold to another company who produced the same yacht calling it a vagabond
200 built only 2 in Europe mostly the states and Pacific rim about twenty in total still survive
we love her and she keeps me very busy

 

[Laminar Flow]

She is a landfall 39 built in Taiwan in 1982 to a Ron amey design
Plans later sold to another company who produced the same yacht calling it a vagabond
200 built only 2 in Europe mostly the states and Pacific rim about twenty in total still survive
we love her and she keeps me very busy

I didn't think she looked British, no offense meant. Super heavy hull layup and tons of teak inside, I bet. Decent SA as well and at the time she would not have been considered a motorsailer. I should think she sails quite well?

 

[Greenheart]

She's a real beauty, no question about it...

...but I am slightly in doubt that she exemplifies what I think of as motorsailer-versatility...

...because, how high and how broad a view of the boat's surroundings, is possible from inside?

I was looking at yachts in a marina earlier today, probably 29 out of 30 of which had no covered helm. It struck me suddenly that the boats I like best are those which are most like accommodation on shore, because:

a) You don't have to descend steps to go indoors;
b) You'll still be able to look out of the windows when you're sitting down; and
c) The view from inside the windows is equivalent to standing on deck, with all the perspective necessary to steer the boat.
.

 

[Cptsideways]

We're just back from three weeks motor sailing the West coast of Scotland in our Finnsailer 35. The weather has frankly been shite for all but a few days.

Thankfully we did get quite a bit of proper sailing in, some pretty rough conditions no shortages of f6 and f8 weather. Biblical amounts of rain. Arrived home to the Kyle's of Bute in a F8 & 3rd reef having not seen another sailing boat all day.

We only really got wet doing the Crinan Canal or going to the pub! The rest of the time was mostly shorts and tees and some wet ropes to contend with in the cockpit. Though I have re-jigged our boat to be sailed from the cockpit as they aren't like that from the factory.

I have noticed a lot of normal yachts going for the big aftermarket cockpit tents including a brand new Sirius with what could only be described as a huge greenhouse on the back.

We've been looking at a future replacement, not much fits the bill though, an IP SP Cruiser does tick many of the boxes.

Here's our very warm & dry Pilothouse and a tent combo, two helms, windscreen wipers, can easily be sailed from either. A tad slow unless it's blowing I'm sure most of the slowness is due to the huge prop. 80hp on tap but if motorsailing we just motor on tickover but that'll also give us 15deg sailing off the wind so we pretty much always have the sails up for comfort.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Huge props are one thing that slows them down, but most MS have abysmal SA/D ratios (sail area/ displacement), by comparison with "real" sailboats., which is the real culprit.

Some hull shapes could not stand to carry more sail, the Fisher is one of them (for all of those who dream of putting a large rig on one of them).
I saw a Fisher 34 that had a 50' tall mast on her and had a chat with her owner. I had seen her sales documentation and had noted that she did appear to sail at rather startling angles of heel. The owner told me that she would never do more than 5kts. In 20kt on the beam she would top out at 5kt, in 25 kt she would still only do 5 kt. I was rather astonished by this as our "pimped" CW 32 will be doing well over 7kt in 20kt and 8 kts or more in 25kts of wind. My conclusion is that the Fisher hull with large amounts of immersed volume does not have enough initial stability to carry that kind of rig.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

We're just back from three weeks motor sailing the West coast of Scotland in our Finnsailer 35. The weather has frankly been shite for all but a few days.

Thankfully we did get quite a bit of proper sailing in, some pretty rough conditions no shortages of f6 and f8 weather. Biblical amounts of rain. Arrived home to the Kyle's of Bute in a F8 & 3rd reef having not seen another sailing boat all day.

We only really got wet doing the Crinan Canal or going to the pub! The rest of the time was mostly shorts and tees and some wet ropes to contend with in the cockpit. Though I have re-jigged our boat to be sailed from the cockpit as they aren't like that from the factory.

I have noticed a lot of normal yachts going for the big aftermarket cockpit tents including a brand new Sirius with what could only be described as a huge greenhouse on the back.

We've been looking at a future replacement, not much fits the bill though, an IP SP Cruiser does tick many of the boxes.

Here's our very warm & dry Pilothouse and a tent combo, two helms, windscreen wipers, can easily be sailed from either. A tad slow unless it's blowing I'm sure most of the slowness is due to the huge prop. 80hp on tap but if motorsailing we just motor on tickover but that'll also give us 15deg sailing off the wind so we pretty much always have the sails up for comfort.

Excellent .... how long have you had her!

 

[Cptsideways]

We've had our Finnsailer 5 years now.

Excellent .... how long have you had her!

This is our fifth year owning her & several thousand miles of comfy warm sailing.

 

[nevis768]

We've had our Finnsailer 5 years now.

This is our fifth year owning her & several thousand miles of comfy warm sailing.

Looks a great boat, I've got a Mascot 28 on the Clyde just now, but it's a bit small. I know of a Finnsailer 36 for sale do you know anything about them?