What has happened to all the motorsailers?

[Greenheart]

My take on this is motor sailers are aimed at the older sailor who perhaps doesn't want to be bashed about in the elements anymore...

Even before my teens, I never understood why yachts with no weather protection are assumed to be what any generation wants.

It's very irritating. By next spring, I should have enough to buy a Centaur - not a tragically neglected Centaur, but a nice one. And it'll be tempting, because they're definitely good boats for not a lot of money...

...but they're also as limited in terms of poor-weather appeal, as the dinghy I already own. If I wanted to put on layers of purpose-designed gear in order to sit outdoors in comfortless low-season British conditions, I already have a boat to do that in. Why would I buy a much bigger one if it doesn't provide even as much weather protection as the cheapest, oldest car?

There are sometimes 1970s Fisher 25s on the market at a shade under £20,000. That's almost encouragingly cheap, but it's still the same money as two really clean, re-engined Centaurs.

Rather surprisingly, I realised a few years ago that the only yacht I've ever seen whose accommodation I would happily move into without planning to modify, is Westerly's mid-eighties Konsort Duo. I would kill for one. It's perfect!

Not even a moment of the designer's time has been spent trying to beautify her - she looks like a slabby, overheight, mid-seventies pre-flybridge river-cruiser, with mast and sails added as an afterthought. But the fact that the Konsort hull was proven before Westerly ever thought of adding an inside helm, or of setting up the accommodation just for the comfort of a cruising couple, means it works as a sailboat in spite of being primarily a comfort boat.

The state of motorsailer construction and purchase is very sad. British yachtsmen seem as self-deluding as ever, determinedly buying open-cockpit boats that will be comfortless to sail here for five months out of twelve. The fact that old motorsailers command solid prices while same-size same-age no-protection designs lose value, shows that people want comfort. Unfortunately the people driving new-yacht sales are persuaded by marketing that the exposure is worth it. What can that be, except wilful daftness?

 

[Sharky34]

My late uncle lived in Itchenor, before it all went unbearably posh. We did a sort of pilgrimage there, last summer, anchoring at East Head.
I used to walk through the old North Shore yard admiring all the Fishers on the hard. They always looked just so damned right. Still do, but until you get up into the 34, the wheelhouse is just a wee bit pokey.

Isn't the 34 reputed to be the best?

 

[Stemar]

If I wanted to put on layers of purpose-designed gear in order to sit outdoors in comfortless low-season British conditions, I already have a boat to do that in. Why would I buy a much bigger one if it doesn't provide even as much weather protection as the cheapest, oldest car?

My thoughts exactly.

I can't afford any of the boats I'd like, nor will I ever be able to without a substantial lottery win - and since I don't do the lottery, that seems unlikely, in spite of the regular emails about wins in lotteries I haven't heard of, let alone entered, and the odd one from that nice Mrs Ghaddafi, who needs my help getting her money out of Libya. A full cockpit tent goes a fair way towards providing protection, though, so I make do.

I've seen a couple of Centaurs with rigid doghouses. On my Snapdragon, a doghouse would have to be too low to be practical, but I wonder if it could be made high enough on a centaur to provide a lid over the steering position?

 

[38mess]

Even before my teens, I never understood why yachts with no weather protection are assumed to be what any generation wants.

It's very irritating. By next spring, I should have enough to buy a Centaur - not a tragically neglected Centaur, but a nice one. And it'll be tempting, because they're definitely good boats for not a lot of money...

...but they're also as limited in terms of poor-weather appeal, as the dinghy I already own. If I wanted to put on layers of purpose-designed gear in order to sit outdoors in comfortless low-season British conditions, I already have a boat to do that in. Why would I buy a much bigger one if it doesn't provide even as much weather protection as the cheapest, oldest car?

There are sometimes 1970s Fisher 25s on the market at a shade under £20,000. That's almost encouragingly cheap, but it's still the same money as two really clean, re-engined Centaurs.

Rather surprisingly, I realised a few years ago that the only yacht I've ever seen whose accommodation I would happily move into without planning to modify, is Westerly's mid-eighties Konsort Duo. I would kill for one. It's perfect!

Not even a moment of the designer's time has been spent trying to beautify her - she looks like a slabby, overheight, mid-seventies pre-flybridge river-cruiser, with mast and sails added as an afterthought. But the fact that the Konsort hull was proven before Westerly ever thought of adding an inside helm, or of setting up the accommodation just for the comfort of a cruising couple, means it works as a sailboat in spite of being primarily a comfort boat.

The state of motorsailer construction and purchase is very sad. British yachtsmen seem as self-deluding as ever, determinedly buying open-cockpit boats that will be comfortless to sail here for five months out of twelve. The fact that old motorsailers command solid prices while same-size same-age no-protection designs lose value, shows that people want comfort. Unfortunately the people driving new-yacht sales are persuaded by marketing that the exposure is worth it. What can that be, except wilful daftness?

Dan, I realized in the late 60s in the sea cadets and the early 70s when we used to sail walers and ASC's in the RN, that I didn't like getting cold and wet on what was supposed to be a pleasant occupation.
Fast forward 20 years to my first boat, a lovely old wooden Eventide, with a small doghouse, this little wooden dog kennel transformed sailing for me, especially to windward, or as close to windward that this little boat could manage ?
Then I sailed a friend's centaur that he had a boxey sort of wheelhouse built, it did the job.
I agree, a proper wheelhouse on the centuar would make so much difference and instead of 6 grand for a tidy one, you would be paying double that.
I have bought lots of old boats without wheelhouses just to get on the water.
My present boat is my livelihood, it has a lovely wheelhouse which I can sleep in if I want, but it's a power boat.
I was looking at fishers again last night, and they are nice boats, but maybe not for me, alas.

 

[Stemar]

a proper wheelhouse on the centuar would make so much difference and instead of 6 grand for a tidy one, you would be paying double that.

Or buy the tidy one without - drag down your offer because the sprayhood's tired, and build one. That's a project I'd enjoy.

How does the mainsheet work on a Centaur? Any mileage on putting it on the lid, a bit like the arch on an American Hunter? From my position of near total ignorance, that's about the only thing that appeals to me about those boats.

 

[E39mad]

Isn't the 34 reputed to be the best?

Yes - it was the last one designed by Wyatt and Freeman and has a finer bow entry in comparison to her sisterships.

I'd like a later sloop rigged one with the Mk III interior which has a bigger heads and forecabin by loosing the starboard saloon seat where the galley sits. The saloon is smaller but still large enough and you also have the wheelhouse. I worked for Northshore between 1990 and 1996 in sales and came up with the new interior design. The heads is in fact a slightly modified Vancouver 34 internal heads moulding!!

 

[rotrax]

The Motorsailer debate can be summed up using a truism that most definitley covers Motorcycling.

So, a simple modification produces :-

"Motorcycling and Sailing should both be enjoyed, not endured."

IMHO, of course.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Even before my teens, I never understood why yachts with no weather protection are assumed to be what any generation wants.

It's very irritating. By next spring, I should have enough to buy a Centaur - not a tragically neglected Centaur, but a nice one. And it'll be tempting, because they're definitely good boats for not a lot of money...

...but they're also as limited in terms of poor-weather appeal, as the dinghy I already own. If I wanted to put on layers of purpose-designed gear in order to sit outdoors in comfortless low-season British conditions, I already have a boat to do that in. Why would I buy a much bigger one if it doesn't provide even as much weather protection as the cheapest, oldest car?

There are sometimes 1970s Fisher 25s on the market at a shade under £20,000. That's almost encouragingly cheap, but it's still the same money as two really clean, re-engined Centaurs.

Rather surprisingly, I realised a few years ago that the only yacht I've ever seen whose accommodation I would happily move into without planning to modify, is Westerly's mid-eighties Konsort Duo. I would kill for one. It's perfect!

Not even a moment of the designer's time has been spent trying to beautify her - she looks like a slabby, overheight, mid-seventies pre-flybridge river-cruiser, with mast and sails added as an afterthought. But the fact that the Konsort hull was proven before Westerly ever thought of adding an inside helm, or of setting up the accommodation just for the comfort of a cruising couple, means it works as a sailboat in spite of being primarily a comfort boat.

The state of motorsailer construction and purchase is very sad. British yachtsmen seem as self-deluding as ever, determinedly buying open-cockpit boats that will be comfortless to sail here for five months out of twelve. The fact that old motorsailers command solid prices while same-size same-age no-protection designs lose value, shows that people want comfort. Unfortunately the people driving new-yacht sales are persuaded by marketing that the exposure is worth it. What can that be, except wilful daftness?

I don't think it's all that cut and dry these days.
As the gulf between performance boats/racers and cruisers widens these days and people become less willing to make the sacrifices necessary to obtain said performance, new breeds are being developed. One of these "new" types are the "expedition" models marketed by Garcia or Boreal, super expensive versions of a marine Range Rover destined for high latitude sailing.

Most of these boats do not have a second interior helm, which brings us to the next change since the early seventies: sophisticated autopilot systems that are capable of steering a yacht in the most severe of conditions, coupled to a charging system that can keep them doing it ad infinitum.
A friend of ours has a Boreal. It does not have an inside helm in it's Star Ship nav pod on deck. Instead, it has a second set of controls for the auto pilot. This is where the skipper, comfortably sheltered, stands watch (well, sits, really) or can supervise the crew chipping the ice off the deck during an arctic storm.

Sirius Yachts, who have also discovered that people, fortunate enough to afford it, do not like to live in basements, now no longer offer an interior helm anymore either. You get a bunch of buttons instead.

APs are meanwhile available with a remote, so you can make course changes from anywhere on board, such as tucked up under the dodger or standing in the companion way in nasty weather. It is an improvement.

I have sailed many thousands of miles in all sorts of weather with both hard and soft dodgers and also without. Regardless of the benefits that any dodger offers, there is absolutely no comparison to a full, heated wheelhouse ( with standing headroom, perhaps) and where you can close the door, even to just shut out the psychological effect from the sound of the roaring madness going on out side.

To a large degree the demise of a sheltered steering concept is also largely due to current day marketing. I seems (to me) to come in two flavours:

The man against sea version, with a strong sportive/machismo appeal; you never see women featured, other than as decor and never mind, kids.

Then, the Caribbean/Med model, with a more hedonist feel to it; ice cooled Chablis in the cockpit and acres of nubile flesh draped over the decks. (How's that working in Brit climes?).

I found the marketing model of the old LM brochure posted by Little Sister strangely touching by comparison. Sure, there was the "Dad" quote: "I do 6-7kts in my LM 27!" (Good on him, by the way) but it showed more kids and older folk than a social services flyer. Strangely, LM built boats following this concept for near on fifty years and they still have a dedicated and loyal fan club. Go figure. Do people not go sailing with their families anymore?

In the 60's, 70's and occasionally still in the early 80's people with a lot less disposable income were building or fitting out their own boats from, even relatively expensive, kits and molds. A rarity these days. I own one of these. With so much old plastic out there, I struggle to understand why some complain that there are no more good boats out there - there are thousands, literally and anyone without two left hands could put one back together again. We were walking down a canal in France and there were numbers of near derelict boats for which I would have given my liver as a youngster; all they really needed was a proper go with a power washer. Our own boat was no where near the state she is in now, when we got her. We made her what she is and the process was, at the very least, rewarding.

 

[Refueler]

APs are meanwhile available with a remote, so you can make course changes from anywhere on board, such as tucked up under the dodger or standing in the companion way in nasty weather. It is an improvement.

My old Nautech 800 and 1000 have remote (its cable) but I can stand at the mast on deck and control the boat from there ... in fact quite often I park bum on the boom and press the buttons ...

Here's enjoying Swedish Archipelago ..

 

[Landfall]

This is a pilot house and I wouldn’t change it for the world

 

[E39mad]

The main difference between a true motorsailer and similar (I tend to call them raised deck or deck saloon) yachts is where the primary wheel is located. In a Fisher or Colvic it is within the wheelhouse itself with the possibility of occasional steering from the cockpit with a tiller. Deck saloon yachts have their primary wheel in the cockpit and as stated above a second form of steering below either as a pilot/joystick or smaller wheel with is used occasionally rather than regularly.

Early Southerly boats had the small internal wheel and it proved a skill to work due to it's reduced diameter and also the additional linkage (was a solid rod system) created drag and the "feel" to the steering was lost. It was no wonder that a second pilot head unit became the preferred option as years went by.

 

[rotrax]

Our boat has a tiny rear cockpit but a larger front cockpit - known by all SP Cruiser owners as the Jacuzzi - equiped with a set of cushions and a table for relaxing alongside or on the hook. I have made a simple boom tent and it is now an ideal place to lounge.

The Raymarine AP has a remote on a lanyard. Apparently you can steer the boat with it from the front cockpit.

Never tried - it all seems a bit iffy to me..................................

 

[howardclark]

Question for you Howard:

Would you call her a motor-sailer if she didn't have a wheelhouse?

She seems a lot more yachtlike than many of the motor-sailers one sees.

I think I agree with you- without the pilot cabin she would be a centre cockpit ketch. We carry quite a lot of sail and without using chute/staysail reach hull speed in a F4 in a flattish sea which isn’t bad for a wooden boat so although ‘motorsailors’ are often underrigged, this too isn’t part of the definition.
Under power I can use the meaty angine to get to hull speed in a seaway which I could not manage in my old Westerly.
Nearly all boats described as motorsailers seem to have a pilot cabin or fixed cuddy for shelter, so I guess this is a misnomer and people just mean a well powered boat you can sail whilst keeping warm & dry! Can’t think of a good name for that.

 

[Poignard]

[...]
Nearly all boats described as motorsailers seem to have a pilot cabin or fixed cuddy for shelter, so I guess this is a misnomer and people just mean a well powered boat you can sail whilst keeping warm & dry! Can’t think of a good name for that.

I can: "Bliss!"

 

[Refueler]

I notice some claim that a sprayhood doesn't qualify .......... well I disagree, but I would as I have a boat that many term a MS and it has no pilothouse .. it has a sprayhood.

Having sailed her without while it was being repaired ... I can not imagine being without it again !

 

[ryanroberts]

In contrast to some of the tales above, I didn't set out to buy a motor-sailer at all!

I was looking for a sailing cruiser about 28ft, and was disappointed after investigating and viewing a number of them - either pokey design or - surprisingly common - only really kitted out for day sailing. I can't remember how I came to view the LM27, but this one was well equipped and I was immediately taken by the general 'open' feel and Scandinavian interior of the LM, the numerous clever little design features, and especially the old-fashioned butterfly hatch in the saloon (early models only) that gave so much light and air. The clincher was that in the wheelhouse the kettle is within arm's reach of the helm - a pukka cruiser!

Similarly with mine, I was mostly looking for quality + condition, forgiving sailing for a short handed newbie and somewhere to spend a lot of time. She has delivered in spades so far and I would not be without a pilothouse on any future boat. Have been pretty comfortable in challenging (for me) conditions 2 up and manage to solo her in very fair weather.

 

[Greenheart]

So much wisdom here, from everybody contributing.

I want a wheelhouse more and more. I suppose it's better to be reluctant to buy the yacht one can afford because of its shortcomings, than to buy it despite what it doesn't have, and regret it.

Rather amusing that in one of the UK's rare, 30°+ Celsius spells, we're unanimous about the virtues of cold weather-protection...

...though it has been pointed out that sun-protection is another motorsailer benefit. A pity that rain and chill-factor issues can't be solved aboard open-decked yachts by an afterthought as simple as a Bimini top.

Refueler, I was very keen to believe that a fabric/plastic windowed sprayhood or tent could substitute for a hard shelter, because adding one to an open cockpit could save me finding double the budget for the same-sized boat with a sheltered helm...

...I realise that an all-over cover such as is pictured above, is probably not what your boat has, and I must state that I don't think the people who make those tents, intend them for use in boisterous weather at sea...

...but everyone I've asked said they're no substitute for a wheelhouse...drips don't run off clear plastic the way they run off glass; there is no wiper option; and in gale conditions, there's the ugly possibility of the whole fabric structure being carried away by green water coming aboard...

...the advice being that they're fine for increasing accommodation space in camping weather, but that at sea, when you might want to retreat inside a wheelhouse, any non-solid structure is even more vulnerable than the people attempting to benefit from it. The LM motorsailers seem to have provided the smart answer to that, with a solid steering shelter and a full high-quality cockpit canopy supplied as a factory option.

The idea of creating a glassfibre 'bolt-on' hardtop for a Westerly Centaur is very appealing, not only because it would add a season-extending dimension to owning one. Am I wrong in thinking it likely that if a two or three-piece bolt-on/bolt-off Centaur cockpit roof could be designed, reinforced, moulded and constructed at reasonable price, allowing dry and draught-proof sailing at all times of year, there might be hundreds of interested customers amongst the 2,000+ owners out there?

Rotrax, I hadn't realised that you can only helm outside, 'by wire'. Are you really not tempted to try out the tech? I would want to know if I could depend on it, and its response time, for possible emergencies that called me away from the inside wheel. Plus, aren't there occasions when you're relaxing in the 'jacuzzi' and have to attend the indoor wheel to be sure of avoiding a possible collision course?

This is a pilot house and I wouldn’t change it for the world

Not sure whether, as a new member here, you provided a picture which we can't yet see, Landfall? Or is it only me?

Laminar Flow, what you've done with your boat's rig seems from my point of view to answer every objection I ever heard, made against conventional heavy motorsailer design. I recall Northshore claiming - proudly - that the Fisher 25's rig could cope with 35 knots of wind, without reefing. They didn't comment on what that meant for boatspeed in, for example, 15 knots, when any yacht designed with sailing considered foremost, might expect to be moving at or close to hull speed.

I always supposed that redrawing something like the F25's sailplan so the skipper is obliged by physics to pull in a reef after force 4, was the sort of change which owners' associations and designers and insurers would decry as inherently unsound. I didn't want to believe that, because it seems to me reefing options today are clever enough that an average crew can tame a very powerful rig with ease, so there really is nothing prudent or preferable about the 'snug' undersized sailplans that motorsailers were typically given.

The fact that underpowered rigs persist today aboard last century's numerous motorsailers, and are accepted by owners as the par for their chosen course, must be the reason for so much scorn expressed by 'purists' about these otherwise brilliantly versatile boats.

 

[LittleSister]

The LM motorsailers seem to have provided the smart answer to that, with a solid steering shelter and a full high-quality cockpit canopy supplied as a factory option.

I think the cockpit canopies on the LMs were standard fittings, not optional extras. They quickly just fold and roll up out of the way to the top of the back of the wheelhouse when not in use, so unlike add-on ones they are not a pain to erect or store.

The one in your picture is unusual in not having windows in the side and (presumably) rear. (Ones with curtains for inside the windows are an optional extra, as are ones with an insulating lining, in case you wanted to use the cockpit benches as additional berths - theoretically it can sleep 8!) Both the sides and rear sections roll up so you can use it as a bimini. You can also have one or more of the sides and rear up or down according to whichever way the wind/rain is blowing.

You can still buy replacement cockpit canopies for all the LM motor-sailers, in various colours and materials, off the shelf from the sailmaking company that originally supplied them to LM. They also supply covers for the early LM27's saloon butterfly hatch, and 'tonneau' type cockpit covers.

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks L.S., they still make a very persuasive case all round.

Have you any idea what proportion of LM 27s had the bilge plates, enabling drying out upright on hard surfaces?

 

[Achosenman]

Sailors spend all sorts of money trying to get weather protection. Click here
If you want a motor sailor...buy one.