What has happened to all the motorsailers?

[ashtead]

Plenty of Moody 45 DS down under. Self tacking jib so little to do if tucked up inside on autopilot in bad weather but a pair of wheels and sun blind to keep the heat off. Large diesel and shed loads of space plus bow thruster to handle all that windage

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Plenty of Moody 45 DS down under. Self tacking jib so little to do if tucked up inside on autopilot in bad weather but a pair of wheels and sun blind to keep the heat off. Large diesel and shed loads of space plus bow thruster to handle all that windage

Yes that was my first suggestion in Post 2. It's a lovely thing if you can get over the position of the wheels, which TBH is one of its major weaknesses for this.

 

[Rob_Webb]

@Rob_Webb, how trad or modern do you want?

Budget and styling tastes both point towards boats around the 2000-2010 era. We plan to continue using for frequent family coastal cruising typically 20-30 weekends of the year with annual summer holiday of 6 weeks. But not actually long-term offshore liveaboard. So I’d like a (potentially impossible!) mixture of more modern family living space down below with more traditional seagoing ‘look & feel’ above decks.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Yes that was my first suggestion in Post 2. It's a lovely thing if you can get over the position of the wheels, which TBH is one of its major weaknesses for this.

Yes I get the huge benefits and amenity of the latest Moody DS designs and I’ve always admired earlier generations but the latest DS cockpit layout and boxy pilothouse just doesn’t give me ‘the fizz’. When I look at the cockpit with sliding sunroof and odd wheel positions it feels to me more like a motor boat designed for charter. But if I won lotto I’d probably swallow my words and take a more serious look! ?

 

[ashtead]

If looking for an older vessel a nauticat 43 might be of interest and less boxy and while slightly heavy should be forgiving in a blow etc.

 

[marttell]

Whereas a better definition of what I’m looking for is a centre-cockpit protected sailing boat. You could take many of today’s modern centre cockpit boats and if you simply made the dodger solid and moved the wheel forward (and slightly to one side probably) then you would have it.

Or put another way, a smaller, more affordable version of an Amel above decks with a modern 3-cabin family cruising layout below decks (not a 2-cabin offshore cruising layout).

Is there a 45-50ft 3 cabin version of an Amel somewhere?

I am surprised no one has suggested the Beneteau 44 CC.
2002 Beneteau Oceanis 44 CC Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

Centre cockpit, hard windscreen, helm at the front of the cockpit, 3 cabins with huge master aft.
Seems to fit the bill but not sure if there are any in your part of the world.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I am surprised no one has suggested the Beneteau 44 CC.
2002 Beneteau Oceanis 44 CC Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

Centre cockpit, hard windscreen, helm at the front of the cockpit, 3 cabins with huge master aft.
Seems to fit the bill but not sure if there are any in your part of the world.

That’s a great idea.

 

[Rob_Webb]

I am surprised no one has suggested the Beneteau 44 CC.
2002 Beneteau Oceanis 44 CC Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

Centre cockpit, hard windscreen, helm at the front of the cockpit, 3 cabins with huge master aft.
Seems to fit the bill but not sure if there are any in your part of the world.

Yes indeed I’d forgotten about those. The bigger B57 is a gem but too big and very few down here. But I have seen a handful of 44CCs over the years so will add that to the target list.

 

[Rob_Webb]

If looking for an older vessel a nauticat 43 might be of interest and less boxy and while slightly heavy should be forgiving in a blow etc.

Thanks yes a 43 or even a 441 would be serious candidates but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one in NZ since I arrived here from the UK 20 yrs ago. I wonder why.... maybe they are mainly used for European regional cruising but rarely for circumnavigations hence hardly any make it to NZ?

 

[dancrane]

5th August
Sorry to find this thread two months late. It's a subject I like, although I can't answer Mr Webb's question.

The fewness of new motorsailers amazes me. I don't understand the pursuit of weatherliness amongst leisure-minded boat-buyers. Far more pleasurable to have a boat that can benefit from a breeze if it's going your way, but which relieves you of any obligation to try, when it's not. As a dinghy sailor I often envy people with motor boats, so a motorboat with mast and sails must be ideal.

Considering the way sailing yachts with no concessions to comfort in poor weather are routinely driven hard under power in miserable conditions, it's obvious their owners feel no compunction about motoring...they're just determined not to regard motoring as any part of the pleasure of ownership. Very unfortunate, and must seem a bit daft to anyone who owns a boat with a wheelhouse.

Laminar Flow, did you consult your boat's designer before changing the rig to increase the sail area? What did your insurers say?

 

[Laminar Flow]

5th August
Sorry to find this thread two months late. It's a subject I like, although I can't answer Mr Webb's question.

The fewness of new motorsailers amazes me. I don't understand the pursuit of weatherliness amongst leisure-minded boat-buyers. Far more pleasurable to have a boat that can benefit from a breeze if it's going your way, but which relieves you of any obligation to try, when it's not. As a dinghy sailor I often envy people with motor boats, so a motorboat with mast and sails must be ideal.

Considering the way sailing yachts with no concessions to comfort in poor weather are routinely driven hard under power in miserable conditions, it's obvious their owners feel no compunction about motoring...they're just determined not to regard motoring as any part of the pleasure of ownership. Very unfortunate, and must seem a bit daft to anyone who owns a boat with a wheelhouse.

Laminar Flow, did you consult your boat's designer before changing the rig to increase the sail area? What did your insurers say?

Mr. Watson and I had a long discussion about it at the last seance.
He helpfully suggested I first determine the boat's righting moment for 20 and 30 degr. heel by timing her roll period so that I may confirm whether she could stand up to the increased area.
Fortunately, I had previously done some design work on other boats so that I knew what he was talking about and was able to calculate that she should be able to carry the new rig up to some 22kts of wind.
We also investigated her apparent imbalance and agreed that I should add a six foot bowsprit to address this problem.
With George's ethereal help it all worked out wonderfully well.

The boat had managed well enough throughout her last forty years and with the same masts. As such she had always been insured. The loads on a rig are determined by the righting moment; the sail area is quite irrelevant.

 

[Wansworth]

Before motors in boats was common in reference to working boats they carried lots of sail and reefed if it was windy

 

[rotrax]

Indeed, just re read a book about East Coast working boats and some of the pictures of 19th century smacks showed huge amounts of sail set.

There was reference to huge overlapping booms and very long bowsprits to assist with towing other vessels by allowing lots of sail to be set. Even more so than the famous Brixham Trawlers.

Having been aboard Laminar Flows boat and met him, I am sure the calculations were done before work commenced.

 

[dancrane]

I doubled her sail area and cleaned her up a bit underwater.

In 10kts apparent, F3, I make 5.8kts close reaching under sail.
the standard model needs a F5 to reach the same speed. In 18kts (apparent), I reach hull speed(7.12kts) on a reach. Again, to do that the standard model would need 29kts of wind, well into a F6 with a probable wave height of 8' to13'. (that is definitely not a selling feature for the wife)

Sailing in light to medium air is where the real fun is at and a larger rig and more sail calms down her tendency to roll something wonderful and I have my wife's explicit and wholehearted permission to say so.

And yes, we have passed a Benny (F5) and an Egeyat 35 (F5-6) and a Bav 32 (light airs).

I still have a honking big engine to get us out of trouble if need be, except we use it 75% less of the time now.

It all convinces me, thoroughly. I was just surprised if doubling the standard sail area didn't change the insurer's approach to the risk the boat represents, on the assumption that the original designer knew how much she could or should carry.

I've been redrawing motorsailer rigs on paper for about ten years in exactly the interests of improving light-wind speeds, that you've based your changes on. I never realised it was possible to actually do it for real without some desk-jockey raising objections.

 

[DJE]

I don't understand the pursuit of weatherliness amongst leisure-minded boat-buyers. Far more pleasurable to have a boat that can benefit from a breeze if it's going your way, but which relieves you of any obligation to try, when it's not. As a dinghy sailor I often envy people with motor boats, so a motorboat with mast and sails must be ideal.

It might be possible that you have the wrong boat.
Personally I find there are few things as satisfying as sailing well to windward in the right conditions.

 

[dancrane]

But that's entirely the point, isn't it? In the UK, the wrong conditions predominate.

 

[DJE]

But that's entirely the point, isn't it? In the UK, the wrong conditions predominate.

A bit pessimistic perhaps. If it's upwind for half the people it's downwind for the other half!

 

[dancrane]

Pessimistic, but practical. I only base my opinion on years of sailing. The upwind stuff always took much longer per mile than downwind, was harder work, less comfortable and more bother, and in a hard wind or on a cold day, was definitely something I'd have dodged if I could.

I think most new-boat buyers know all that, but keep selecting designs which pretend beating isn't a predictable long-winded pain. If those designs are largely drawn for warmer climates, their popularity in the UK must be specifically a British form of daftness, because we all know the sunny brochure-pictures only reflect a minority of days in the calendar.

 

[Refueler]

Motor Sailer ............. what defines a Motor Sailer ?

I have a 25ft 1970's sailing yacht .. it has a large diesel in her (larger than designer recc'd) ... she sails OK .. never win any race. She motors at respectable speed ..

I can make passage and be reasonably sure of ETA vs actual arrival.

She's often termed a Motor Sailer, but has no Wheelhouse / Pilot house ...

A Colvic Watson - I think we can all agree is a MS ... but what about the generalised use of the term ?

Personally - my SR25 was based on a Workboat hull designed for UK .. it inspires confidence and safe passage despite her small size. People come on her and after a short spell - appreciate that she has ability to 'get to the pub on time' !!

 

[TernVI]

Pessimistic, but practical. I only base my opinion on years of sailing. The upwind stuff always took much longer per mile than downwind, was harder work, less comfortable and more bother, and in a hard wind or on a cold day, was definitely something I'd have dodged if I could.

I think most new-boat buyers know all that, but keep selecting designs which pretend beating isn't a predictable long-winded pain. If those designs are largely drawn for warmer climates, their popularity in the UK must be specifically a British form of daftness, because we all know the sunny brochure-pictures only reflect a minority of days in the calendar.

Sailing upwind is a challenge and it rewards having a good boat.
Anyone who is any use at racing regards upwind as an opportunity.
Reaching is great in a dinghy which will plane and go twice as fast as it will on the beat, but in a yacht, you're just going to do 7 knots instead of 5.5 or something.