Stemar
Well-known member
Finally getting to fetch mine from Guernsey next Thursday.
Yep.
Not even a little bit jealous... No, really ☹
What has happened to all the motorsailers?
- Thread starter Rob_Webb
- Start date
Not even a little bit jealous... No, really ☹
Rob_Webb
Active member
Finally getting to fetch mine from Guernsey next Thursday.
Hey, that’s very nice! What is it?
Seven Spades
Well-known member
Back on track, what happened to all the motor sailors ? They went to Scotland, Scottish harbours are full of them for some reason.
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rotrax
Well-known member
First Mate and I spent 2 seasons in the North and East coasts of Ireland, the IOM and the Clyde.
During our five weeks in the Clyde it decended into winter. 7 Degrees C in mid July.
We were lucky enough to have a great boat with everything - including Air-Con- but not heating unless on shore power.
That five weeks in the Clyde is why we have a Motorsailer with a good Webasto and an 8KW Genset.
We started searching for the next boat with full pilothouse as soon as we got back.
Rappey
Well-known member
I've been at various locations around portsmouth harbour this week and every time time I look out there is a motorsailers sailing by!
Can only conclude all the motorsailers are in Portsmouth Harbour !
Can only conclude all the motorsailers are in Portsmouth Harbour !
rotrax
Well-known member
Mine is still on the hard round in Haslar Creek.
We did get two coats of Jotun Seaforce 60 on her Wednesday though!
Be looking for a launch date soon - you might see another!
We did get two coats of Jotun Seaforce 60 on her Wednesday though!
Be looking for a launch date soon - you might see another!
ryanroberts
Well-known member
Ta
Fjord MS 33. Sort of ashamed I'd never heard of the design before seeing her for sale. Wasn't really a rational choice but I have convinced myself she's practical by boat standards.dunedin
Well-known member
Perhaps, but if so they rarely go out sailing.
The vast majority of boats seen actually sailing in Scotland are your standard AWBs (Bavaria , Jeanneau etc), MABs (where let's use M as modest, rather than manky
and a smattering of Scandinavians.
KINGFISHER 8
Well-known member
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
Sadly, the biggest enemy of the motorsailer is the motorsailor.
Bought, it seems, in folk's golden years as a last ditch attempt to get the missus to come sailing again, with the prospect of not having to spend another summer sitting in the rain.
Unfortunately, they then end up as a permanently moored man-cave in the local marina when said missus realizes that the poor thing is so short-rigged that to actually get it sailing, will require her to be going out at such times when only the bravest of the brave would dare to and only then to save the lives of those foolish enough to have been caught out in a lesser vessel.
Thus the myth of the incredible seaworthiness of the traditional motorsailer is born and with a factory standard storm rig to boot; the old boy, having coffee in the wheelhouse with his pals, nods his head at the lifeboat, braving the mad mayhem of seas at the entrance bar and says: "Yer know, Jock, she could easily take it, me old girl," as he pats the teak, "but the wife wouldn't"!"
In many Dutch harbours there is a bench at the entrance; here the old fishermen sit and watch the boats going by. The locals call it "The Liar's bench".
There is a real chance traditional motorsailers could become like that, except with a proper roof over one's head, of course.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Someone, please, give them all more sail ... set them free, to actually go sailing when most normal and sensible people do.
Bought, it seems, in folk's golden years as a last ditch attempt to get the missus to come sailing again, with the prospect of not having to spend another summer sitting in the rain.
Unfortunately, they then end up as a permanently moored man-cave in the local marina when said missus realizes that the poor thing is so short-rigged that to actually get it sailing, will require her to be going out at such times when only the bravest of the brave would dare to and only then to save the lives of those foolish enough to have been caught out in a lesser vessel.
Thus the myth of the incredible seaworthiness of the traditional motorsailer is born and with a factory standard storm rig to boot; the old boy, having coffee in the wheelhouse with his pals, nods his head at the lifeboat, braving the mad mayhem of seas at the entrance bar and says: "Yer know, Jock, she could easily take it, me old girl," as he pats the teak, "but the wife wouldn't"!"
In many Dutch harbours there is a bench at the entrance; here the old fishermen sit and watch the boats going by. The locals call it "The Liar's bench".
There is a real chance traditional motorsailers could become like that, except with a proper roof over one's head, of course.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Someone, please, give them all more sail ... set them free, to actually go sailing when most normal and sensible people do.
Refueler
Well-known member
To paint Motorsailers with that is grossly unfair and shows a lack of understanding of what they are actually designed for. They are NOT designed to rough out seas that others fear to sail. They are not designed to race round the cans.
I own a motorsailer ... it will never catch a Beneteau or such ... but it can give fair turn when set up ... I've had over 7kts out of her just under sail ... but that is NOT how she is designed ...
MOTOR - SAILER ... the name gives it away ...
Take a passage I have done a number of times : Ventspils to Gotland ... a direction of ~WNW .. often with prevailing SW - WSW winds ... sails set ... engine set at easy rpm ... speed maintained at 5+kts .... all nice and easy .. sails stay steady ... engine hums along ... autopilot happy .... 15 - 18hrs later all alongside safely and without fuss.
Few hours later depart Gotland and head for Swedish Islands .. similar setup again ...
I have had my race ventures ... placed usually quite well ... in my Saaremaa actually won by first over line AND by handicap Baltic Regatta in Pirita .... boat I sold on to one of the crew a year later. Now I enjoy sailing to relax and be away from it - no longer needing the adrenaline rush of washjng windows / decks awash etc.
Rob_Webb
Active member
Thanks yes fab looking boat and comes close to the brief - if the wheel was further forward under the hard dodger and therefore more protected we would be there!
Rob_Webb
Active member
The more I think about it and reflecting on the comments and feedback here, maybe the term “Motorsailor” is itself a bit outdated and creates an impression of dark, heavy, slow, old and underpowered sailing boats with scary big old engines under the cockpit floor!
Whereas a better definition of what I’m looking for is a centre-cockpit protected sailing boat. You could take many of today’s modern centre cockpit boats and if you simply made the dodger solid and moved the wheel forward (and slightly to one side probably) then you would have it.
Or put another way, a smaller, more affordable version of an Amel above decks with a modern 3-cabin family cruising layout below decks (not a 2-cabin offshore cruising layout).
Is there a 45-50ft 3 cabin version of an Amel somewhere?
Whereas a better definition of what I’m looking for is a centre-cockpit protected sailing boat. You could take many of today’s modern centre cockpit boats and if you simply made the dodger solid and moved the wheel forward (and slightly to one side probably) then you would have it.
Or put another way, a smaller, more affordable version of an Amel above decks with a modern 3-cabin family cruising layout below decks (not a 2-cabin offshore cruising layout).
Is there a 45-50ft 3 cabin version of an Amel somewhere?
Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
ashtead
Well-known member
Have you looked at a jongert ? When the waves roll down the deck and the large Mercedes diesel ploughs on you stay cozy under the hard top and even when on night passage in the med under mizzen and headsail the hardtop and wheel with comfy chair means it's not too arduous standing the early morning watch and keeping an eye on radar up top. . Plenty of older smaller versions out there - they did do them in smaller versions than 23 m which might be a bit OTT .
Rappey
Well-known member
So your not looking for a motor sailer, but are looking for a centre cockpit ?
Maybe no one can say what has happened to all the motor sailers until someone can define exactly what a motor sailer is ?
There are all sorts of definitions online and discussions on here going back nearly 20 years but each article has a different opinion as to what defines a motor sailer.
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
I find it interesting that sailing apparently only comes in two flavours:
sort of lethargically drifting about while cruising or screaming along, decks awash and shipping green water in a race.
That is clearly ridiculous.
The traditional motorsailer is a holdover from the time when engines were crazyly heavy. A Hundested engine that had the same hp as my 60hp diesel would have weighed ten times as much as mine or 2400kg. As vessel capable of floating such a beast would have had to have considerable displacement and not to mention, massive scantlings. That did not leave a lot of capacity for ballast if you had any sailing in mind.
All that changed when engines became more efficient and GRP was introduced, making it possible to build a much lighter structure. What didn't change for the Fishers, Watsons and Banjers was the shape and all of a sudden you had ballast/displacement ratios of 40%-50% instead of 15%; after all, the thing had to be brought down to her lines somehow, once you ran out of accommodation to squeeze in.
What also didn't change were the stumpy rigs even though there was now an (over) abundance of stability. Sail had to be divided up into ever smaller bits (for ease of handling, you know) with multi- masted rigs on boats of 25' or less. Sure they look cute, but they're not efficient. This was at the time when you still had to hank on the jibs and racing crews got to do that every twenty minutes if the skipper thought it was worth it. Good old Hiscock claimed the biggest sail a single man could handle was 400 sqft. By comparison the mizzens on some of the smaller units are barely the size of beach towels!
Now-a-days you can reef or furl 1000sqft, singlehandedly, easily and in seconds.
Much vaunted motorsailing, that is running under sail and engine at the same time is a lot less efficient than most think with one exception and that is with a variable pitch prop. Such a system is unpleasantly expensive and I'm saving my kidney for something else. There was an article in PBO Nov. '16 on this; the main benefit is comfort, not significant gain in speed.
And this is where we come to my previous point, for I too have a motorsailer, an old-fashioned one, with a roof over my head. Except I doubled her sail area and cleaned her up a bit underwater.
In 10kts apparent, F3, I make 5.8kts close reaching under sail.
the standard model needs a F5 to reach the same speed, except she wouldn't as the probable wave height in those conditions would between 4' and 6'
In 18kts (apparent), I reach hull speed(7.12kts) on a reach.
Again, to do that the standard model would need 29kts of wind, well into a F6 with a probable wave height of 8' to13'. (that is definitely not a selling feature for the wife)
So, unless you just can't get enough of the smell of diesel exhaust, I'd rather lope along in silence at 5.8 kts, on a calm sea with a nice cuppa or hang out in the wheelhouse if it is raining, while Arnold our electronic slave tends the helm.
Sailing in light to medium air is where the real fun is at and a larger rig and more sail calms down her tendency to roll something wonderful and I have my wife's explicit and wholehearted permission to say so.
And yes, we have passed a Benny (F5) and an Egeyat 35 (F5-6) and a Bav 32 (light airs).
I still have a honking big engine to get us out of trouble if need be, except we use it 75% less of the time now.
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
I think they started at 15m. Steel construction and heavy as sin. Teak decks over steel will be a serious problem on the older models. But if you're looking for a real pirate ship ...
Refueler
Well-known member
Exactly .....
My 25ft Sunrider is classed as a Motorsailer .... but to most people when they look at her put her in the Colvic 26 / Centaur cl;ass ....
She sails reasonably ... but like most older Bilge Keelers is not best close hauled on the wind. But that's where 43HP of Perkins comes in ... purring away aiding sail and she will stay straight as a die .. sails full all day ...
What defines a Motorsailer ? As Rappey says - some have the vision of heavy old dumpy boats that basically need a howling gale to get moving. Others see more modern versions such as Moody Eclipse as the MS .... and so it goes ... its a very grey area and IMHO comes down to how YOU picture your boat etc.
I don't usually regard my boat as a 'pure MS' ... I regard is as a 'between' style that can make passage in any of 3 ways comfortably and safely in even harsh conditions ... sail only ... motor and sail .... motor only.
duncan99210
Well-known member
I have a friend who had a Nauticat 33. We sailed in company quite a few times in the Ionian where the wind is lacking in the morning and present in the afternoon. He’d disappear as we motored but as the wind picked up we’d rapidly overhaul him. I therefore wrote off the boat as “not much use for sailing”.
A bit later and he had to stop sailing and left the boat on the hard for a couple of years. He persuaded me to spend a few weeks helping him get her back in the water before selling her. Once we’d finished the work, we took her off for a bit of sailing. It was then apparent why we never had any trouble overtaking her. He didn’t sail her to anything near her capabilities: easing sail or reefing well before it was needed. I found that she sailed remarkably well and was enjoyable to work.
So, don’t dismiss motorsailers as boat that won’t sail: look at how well they do when they’re properly set up and given a chance. Still don’t want one though.....
A bit later and he had to stop sailing and left the boat on the hard for a couple of years. He persuaded me to spend a few weeks helping him get her back in the water before selling her. Once we’d finished the work, we took her off for a bit of sailing. It was then apparent why we never had any trouble overtaking her. He didn’t sail her to anything near her capabilities: easing sail or reefing well before it was needed. I found that she sailed remarkably well and was enjoyable to work.
So, don’t dismiss motorsailers as boat that won’t sail: look at how well they do when they’re properly set up and given a chance. Still don’t want one though.....
