Trip Debrief: What Went Right, Wrong, And What We Should Have Done Differently

[Deleted member 36384]

..... There is merit when looking to enter an unfamiliar harbour/marina/approach channel, to carry out a deliberate Approach to Minimums and then a Missed Approach Procedure...... Having a briefed Decision Point is sound practice.

Enjoi!

That's great advice.

 

[flaming]

That's great advice.

It is very good advice. Never be afraid to abort an entrance if things aren't looking as you expect.

An extreme example, but many, many years ago we did a family charter in the Carribean. We planned on going to one bay, and approached. The boat's GPS didn't work, and charts were all based on sextant surveys anyway, so navigation wasn't quite as easy as you might think. Things didn't look quite right, landmarks weren't quite what we expected, but we pressed on anyway and anchored up for the night with a load of other boats. It was only the following day that we realised that we were in fact in completely the wrong bay, and must have missed a reef near the entrance by a couple of boat lengths at most. I was about 13 at the time and it still gives me goosebumps to think about.

 

[zoidberg]

Don't worry about it, 'flaming'. Commercial pilots and Mil jet jocks manage it just about every other day..... f'r 'zample, confusing Dusseldorf with Edinburgh, as I recall.
That's what Navigators are for.....

 

[[3889]]

+1 for sleep when you can, sleep deprivation is a particular weakness of mine and I do all I can to avoid it: a 20 minute snooze in the cockpit can make all the difference.
If I grounded a boat through navigational error, however lightly, on a professional delivery I would be offering the owner a refund of their fee before being asked.
120 miles is a bit of a big ask for a first overnight. 60- 80 would be my starting point but good on yer. I just hope nobody is traumatised to the point of sailophobia after the experience, which didn't sound the best.

 

[flaming]

Don't worry about it, 'flaming'. Commercial pilots and Mil jet jocks manage it just about every other day..... f'r 'zample, confusing Dusseldorf with Edinburgh, as I recall.
That's what Navigators are for.....

Luckily I can, in that instance, make the entirely reasonable claim that I was not the skipper and was only 13!

 

[lampshuk]

Sounds like a "fun" sail, and quite a learning experience. Thanks for writing it up. We've all been there.

One thing to bear in mind is that - depending on your sail - it may not be absolutely necessary to turn head to wind to reef or completely drop the main.
It is rather inelegant, and not "best practice", but you _can_ release the halliard and carefully pull the sail down the track.
You'll need to sheet the boom in to stabilize it once the sail is on its way down, and pull the sail back away from the spreaders.
The friction is a lot more than when head-to-wind, of course, and some rigs will allow this more than others (I suspect fully-battened sails will not co-operate)

It takes longer than simply rattling it down H2W, but it does remove the adrenalin-pumping crash-bang-wallop of turning into an apparent wind that's suddenly jumped a BFT force or two.

Something to try on a calmer day for the first time - and not recommended as a regular practice because of the friction and wear on the sail.

As someone else pointed out, heaving to also works.

 

[LittleSister]

This seems to be the catch 22 of sailing that no amount of fair weather practice can prepare you for: You don't know what to do when conditions deteriorate until you are out in said conditions without knowing what to do in them.

As in other aspects of life, experience is what you get just after you needed it!

 

[lw395]

....

im also surprised he agreed to you staying up 24 hours while still being skipper and didn't have a watch system in place, i would have sent my crew below to rest, simple mistakes can happen after concentrating for extended periods without rest, especially at night.

you do acknowledge things i would have done on night passages i.e sticking in a reef prior to the sun setting, or sailing a reduced sail plan at night so you can be "off watch" .....

There's always loads of advice offered to reef before dark and always before you might need it, but the OP spent time motorsailing. I would not be reefing at dusk to spend the first half of the night trying to sleep with the motor running. It's not as if there was a gale forecast? Maybe the wind which piped up was a bit more than the F5 the OP stated, or reefing might never have been needed on a broad reach.
I think being able to reef really needs to be within one's confidence and competence so that you are not afraid of needing to reef in the dark any more than needing to tack or gybe in the dark.

What would have been a good idea might be to be sure that the reefing system (and your way of using it) works properly in daylight. Some boats have quirks which are much easier to suss out in daylight.

Single line reefing is often not as straightforwards in practice, compared to basic slab reefing with a rams horn and a pennant, which anyone who has ever sailed a basic yacht will know what's needed to put a reef in properly. Anyone who's raced a
Sigma 33 or a Sonata could reef my boat almost with their eyes closed. I've been on a boat with a roller reefing main where the owners method of reefing was downright cackhanded and put a lot of strain on things. A bit of practice after reading the manual online and we made it easy. Single Line can be a bit like that, it can work sweetly or it can be prone to only working if you keep checking that various lines (sections of the same line?) are not twisting or snagged etc.

When I've got extra hands on the boat, it's good to run through processes like reefing, taking five minutes at the start of the passage can be time well spent. While everyone is on deck, before anyone goes off watch. Likewise if there's any other thing which is not completely bog standard about the boat, e.g. if there's more to starting the engine than turning a key and pressing a button, if the nav electronics are not what people are used to, also essential stuff like working the stove and the loo. I once foound my self on a racing boat coming back from Alderney, when I woke up at 4AM I found people had been unable to have a cuppa all their night watch because they'd failed to work out there was a gas shutoff in the locker next to the stove! People who are familiar with their own boat and rarely sail other peoples don't realise how much it takes to know your way around some boats.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

...

Mistake #1: Not re-rigging the preventer after our turn.

We did not accidentally gybe, but i ended up sheeting the mainsail in tight to reduce boom travel if we had. Still the initial part of the overnight sail was reasonably comfortable. Winds had decreased enough that we motorsailed for about 6 hours.

Mistake #2: Letting the sun set with a full main hoisted and a deteriorating forecast.


I'm a commercial pilot, and the boat's motion downwind under headsail alone seemed very much like a dutch roll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_roll) which in an aircraft of course is something to be avoided at all costs lest you enter a realm of negative stability and suffer an upset. Aircraft actually have redundant computerized yaw dampers to prevent this. I would like to think that this concept of negative stability is less relevant in a keelboat, but the existence of a capsize screening formula makes me wonder.

This seems to be the catch 22 of sailing that no amount of fair weather practice can prepare you for: You don't know what to do when conditions deteriorate until you are out in said conditions without knowing what to do in them.

An early 90s design, 12'8" at the beam, carries more of that aft than the extreme IOR boats but not as much as a modern design. Here she is by the numbers:

38', 32' LWL
S.A./Disp.: 16.46
Bal./Disp.: 34.35
Disp./Len.: 193.09
Comfort Ratio: 21.90
Capsize Screening Formula: 2.11

I think she's a good, solid boat I'm just not sure of the best way to keep her in the envelope so that she - and we - are equally happy.

My tuppen'orth (1200 hrs, mostly gliding and 12 years RAF Avionics) - as a commercial pilot you are used to everything going according to your plan and have fall-backs carefully sorted in the event of a problem. Even if you have a failure you have a plan to follow and whenever you go outside that you have real situation on your hands. It needs to be that way because things can go wrong very quickly and then need fixing very quickly (with the outcome if you don't pretty bad usually). I've found a tendency to translate that into sailing with both good and bad results. The good is obvious - we tend to be risk-averse, understand risk management and workload management, prepare well and rehearse for problems. The bad I think is: we tend to assume that sailing will also follow our plans to the letter, we forget that we are lot more exposed to the environment (a 100 kt head wind en route is mostly a fuel mgt issue to an ATPL) so a situation to deal with doesn't allow us to cut out the irrelevant input so easily, and mainly that we tend to forget that we have more time to sort it out and that the boat's a lot tougher than we are. We also tend to over-analyse sometimes.

Regarding the gybe preventer being left unrigged, I would prefer not to be in a situation where I was relying on it at night unless I was very comfortable with de-rigging it quickly in the dark and completely trusted it unless I had no chance of needing to change course quickly. I'd simply reef and head up a bit but many more-experienced skippers reckon I'm over-cautious having said that.

Regarding the dutch roll the forces at play on a boat to create and counteract the roll are very different - on the aircraft it's the aircraft itself creating the forces for example, whereas on the boat it's the sea state. It usually freaks out an autopilot and makes it work way too hard if it actually manages to cope at all and it can drain a battery very quickly too if the AP is constantly trying to correct the motion. The boat may just about end up going into a situation that's beyond bloody uncomfortable but you should have ages to stop it before it gets to bad - sail and heading changes will quickly reduce it though they'll mean you're heading off course. I reckon any increase in passage time is more than compensated for by the increase in crew comfort and reduced fatigue. A long period of rolling can be surprisingly hard on rigging too - the motion can accelerate chafing and wear a huge amount.

Crew - this could be a transference from the aviation world again. We're used to people needing real qualifications (not just a tick in the box) to work on aircraft, never mind fly them. If someone says they are experienced they will tell you P1 and P2 hours, type ratings, etc. In sailing - let's just say it's not quite like that.

Be interested to hear if some of the vastly more experienced people on here agree with any or all of the above. Sorry my reply turned into War and Peace..

 

[Daydream believer]

I would certainly agree that reefing at night is not for the faint-hearted.
I think you said single-line reefing with lines lead aft? Should be even easier to do hove-to with only the halyard tended from the mast.
.

Which really supports the argument for single line reefing operated from the cockpit.
Why on earth the OP could not reef is a real worry. I would suggest that the main issue arising from the whole story is that he should sort the reefing out.

Personally I dislike sailing under jib alone, although just about everyone on the forum will disagree. The sail is unstable & flaps around in a big sea & as far as I can see only has the advantage that it can be furled away quite quickly if one wanted to, say, start the engine. A reefed main is, in my opinion, more stable & provides more power. But I sail single handed & like to be able to adjust it from the helm , which is easier than adjusting a jib when helming.

Would keeping the boat up to top speed all the time, rather than wallowing in the troughs have helped the motion? In my boat it would, but would have been hard work SH; but the OP was crewed so Ok on that score. Another benefit of a wide stern perhaps??? Or would broaching been an issue?

As for problems with the preventer !!. I tie a big loop through the mainsheet attachment at the boom(so I can undo the knot easily without having to reach the boom) then pass the line round the spring cleat & back to a cockpit winch. It does not stop movement entirely when the boom is well out but it stops a gybe & can be let off in an instant.It can be transferred to the other side quickly. Furthermore, I can flick the line over the cleat with the boathook & not leave the cockpit.

I have done lots of 100mile plus trips SH & can manage 24 hours Ok with a catnap in the cockpit. (normally in the middle of a shipping lane!!!!) It depends on the OP & how long he can go without sleep. To suggest that he should have gone to sleep early on is difficult, because with adrenaline pumping one cannot just say - " Oh! i will go to sleep now", One needs to feel tired first. Hence, that may not happen until well into the trip

But every boat & crew is different & it depends on what makes the crew feel comfortable & safe.

 

[weustace]

Regarding the dutch roll the forces at play on a boat to create and counteract the roll are very different - on the aircraft it's the aircraft itself creating the forces for example, whereas on the boat it's the sea state. It usually freaks out an autopilot and makes it work way too hard if it actually manages to cope at all and it can drain a battery very quickly too if the AP is constantly trying to correct the motion. The boat may just about end up going into a situation that's beyond bloody uncomfortable but you should have ages to stop it before it gets to bad - sail and heading changes will quickly reduce it though they'll mean you're heading off course. I reckon any increase in passage time is more than compensated for by the increase in crew comfort and reduced fatigue. A long period of rolling can be surprisingly hard on rigging too - the motion can accelerate chafing and wear a huge amount.

Crew - this could be a transference from the aviation world again. We're used to people needing real qualifications (not just a tick in the box) to work on aircraft, never mind fly them. If someone says they are experienced they will tell you P1 and P2 hours, type ratings, etc. In sailing - let's just say it's not quite like that.

I speak as an aviation enthusiast with no flying experience but some engineering knowledge, so take this with a pinch of salt. It has previously occurred to me that Dutch roll is analogous to "death roll" in dinghies etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_roll ), which I have experienced even on a reservoir—it can be a genuine mode of aero/hydrodynamic instability, I suspect because of a slightly positive feedback loop between the roll angle and the centre of pressure in the rig which is not present on upwind points. In a yacht, unless massively over canvassed, I would never expect this to result in a broach—that tends to come about as a combination of being overambitious with a spinnaker and/or running downwind before a sizeable sea state.

Reefing is often a good idea, but I would agree with Flaming—it can be equally uncomfortable to have too little sail, which can leave the boat slopping around a bit. Of course, if you know that the wind is coming, that's a different matter—for a cruising boat and crew still getting into the stride of night sailing, it's sensible to be cautious.

Also agree regarding crew qualifications—if the expert was a qualified instructor then he should have been up to this sort of thing, but just having a YM ticket (especially the first one) doesn't necessarily guarantee competence—though it often indicates it. I often find it difficult to sleep on passage when I'm in charge, but just to lie down for a while can help.

Well done on first night passage—an achievement that will let you stretch your cruising legs dramatically should you want to! Out of interest, where do you sail (UK waters? Med? Sorry if this was in first post...)

Regards
William

 

[Loopy]

Thanks to all who responded.

My only comment would be that when sailing with the wave direction in largish waves, especially at an angle it's probably better to hand steer and not use the autopilot. You can anticipate the waves as they come and keep on a much straighter course than any autopilots I know (you steer to counteract the yaw just as it starts). I get a lot of yaw with my autopilot and it can get overwhelmed by a largish following sea.

This thought did cross my mind, especially when I saw the electrical draw from the autopilot. In fact, part of my decision to motorsail was to run the engine to ensure that the house bank wasn't depleted by sunrise. We did suffer an alternator failure a few hours before sunrise, but by then we were close enough to the point that the solar panels were going to start working again.

But by the time these thoughts had coalesced, I decided that perhaps a moonless night in those conditions with a questionable expert on board was not the time to practice that skill.

You should always try to get your head down when you can, could you not kip when the expert was on watch, tiredness leads to bad decisions!

Absolutely. As for my lack of sleep, I was already beginning to have some questions about the skill set out "pro" brought to the table. With regards to electrical management, after I saw what the autopilot was drawing and did the math, I quickly realized that we were going to have to make some changes to get through the night. My initial plan involved shutting off the fridge and motorsailing. He was initially of the opinion that both actions were unnecessary. The conflict in my brain was between what I saw on the Victron, basic math, and "this is a guy who says he's delivered yachts across the Pacific...".

Perhaps you put too much faith in the helper, as he turned out to be a duffer and only made things worse. Putting a reef in at force 5 should be made easy, if you doubt your present arrangements you can probably easily sort it.

I've never tried to reef in those conditions, or tried the third reef, but the times I've put the first in its been a simple matter of lowering the sail, securing the reefing line, and tensioning the main halyard appropriately. I would have expected that the third would be just as easy to set. I was at the helm, holding the boat into the wind while he was attempting, then abandoning this procedure.

But certainly something to check out.

I’m intrigued about the grounding. Why did the instructor / pro ignore the channel markers? Did he/she claim to have local knowledge?

I have no earthly idea. He was at the helm, I pointed out the channel markers, I pointed out the previously record track on the chartplotter, and told him to follow the previous track. He had no local knowledge, I had at least been there once. By the time I realized what he was doing...bump.

The yawing you are experiencing under headsail is pretty normal, especially if your autopilot is from the same era as the boat. Worth seeing if it has a reaction rate that can be altered, turning that up can help the autopilot, but unless it's a fairly modern one with gyro compass then it will not be as good as a decent helmsperson in those conditions.

The autopilot is a hydraulic Garmin Reactor, much newer than the boat. I updated it with the latest firmware Nov of 2018.

An interesting post I guess the acid test of a successful trip is if your wife plans to sail with you again?

What's next?

She does, which is good. I think she was actually more laid back about the entire matter than I was but a healthy degree of paranoia is par for the course with my day job.

We lauch in Nov after the hurricane threat has passed. First on the list will be an upgrade of the house bank and solar. For double handed sailing with extensive autopilot use we will probably need double the Amp Hour capacity we currently have.

In 96, the (now defunct) yard went from hinged acrylic panels as portlights with bolted on external acrylic panels to cover gasketed deadlights to a traditional portlight/deadlight setup. As I have failed to source any replacement parts for the existing setup for leak mitigation - and I'm not inclined to take the bits and pieces to a custom fabricator to have them custom made - I've given the yard the mission of finding and installing traditional opening portlights with screens that match those on the 96 boat. This will double the ventilation below.

, where do you sail (UK waters? Med? Sorry if this was in first post...)

Then perhaps Georgetown Harbor if I'm satisfied with where she is at mechanically. Coastal cruising around Florida and the Bahamas are pretty much all that is on our radar at our current experience level.

 

[LadyInBed]

I've just googled your autopilot and it looks like it is one that attaches to the wheel, the bit I read says "Garmin GHP Reactor Hydraulic Autopilot is designed for boats less than 30 feet long".
Think it is generally accepted that Wheel pilots are not up to the job of serious down wind sailing, you need one that works directly on the rudder quadrant to get instant response, not one that has to cope with all the slack and gearing from the wheel.
I am now not surprised that you had a lot of yaw!
PS I have just looked at Garmin GHP Reactor 40 Hydraulic Corepack with SmartPump which looks to be a much more manly job, does yours operate direct on the rudder, if so, I still don't understand the yaw problem.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I would advise that you rehearse reefing while in harbour. List each individual action you have to make and go through it a number of times , then try and do it blindfolded! When I was training to be a keelboat instructor, we were required to be able to put in or shake out a reef in less than sixty seconds. admittedly this was on a simple dayboat with basic slab reefing, operated from the mast, single-line reefing may take a little longer.
You don't have to be head-to wind, you can heave-to, as, when hove to, the sail is not drawing wind and is, in fact, HTW . You can alternatively change luff up onto a broad reach, and then ease the mainsheet, so that the sail starts to flap, i.e. it's HTW, then with your highly rehearsed reefing evolution, you can have your reef in before the boat even slows down.

 

[lpdsn]

I have no earthly idea. He was at the helm, I pointed out the channel markers, I pointed out the previously record track on the chartplotter, and told him to follow the previous track. He had no local knowledge, I had at least been there once. By the time I realized what he was doing...bump.

I'm curious as to what qualifications your 'expert' claimed. Did he say he was an RYA YM Offshore? A little bit confusingly there is now a YM Coastal and I have from time to time encountered people who claim to be a yachtmaster on the basis of a shorebased certificate (i.e. theory only).

 

[RobF]

I'm curious as to what qualifications your 'expert' claimed. Did he say he was an RYA YM Offshore? A little bit confusingly there is now a YM Coastal and I have from time to time encountered people who claim to be a yachtmaster on the basis of a shorebased certificate (i.e. theory only).

The 3 flavours of YM are well documented on the RYA website and the websites of most sailing schools.

I've been victim to a few unpleasant rolly sessions. My preferred tactic is to bring the wind back onto the beam just enough to stop the boat rolling. Clearly this may result in a couple of gybes to reach the destination, but is a lot more comfortable and easier for both hand and autohelm steered boats.

If I have to sail under a single sail at night, I prefer the mainsail. Firstly, it gives me better visibility ahead. Secondly, I don't need to worry about my genoa sheets fouling on something by the mast un-noticed as the gybe happens.

Great write up, by the way. Thank you.

 

[lpdsn]

The 3 flavours of YM are well documented on the RYA website and the websites of most sailing schools.

Albeit the distinctions are maybe not quite so obvious to a new boat owner in Florida as they are to you.

 

[zoidberg]

Reading through again, 'loopy', I think I made the assumption - without justification I can find in your details - that the wazzock you employed to keep you safe was not necessarily an RYA Qualified Cruising Instructor. It rather seems that you were keeping HIM safe....

Similarly, I'd assumed - until you mentioned 'Bahamas' and 'Georgetown' - that this night passage was somewhere around the UK. I stand corrected for my assumptions.

From your information, re-read, it seems the boat is essentially sound and capable. While the rolly motion would at times seem concerning to a relatively inexperienced couple, the stability info you gave suggests she's quite OK. That's to be expected, if uncomfortable.

One important figure you didn't include in your OP - and I'm sure your 'day job' will have made you conscious of it as part of your continuing 'situational awareness' - is the depth you draw.

Be also aware that your depth sounder should be/may have been/needs checking that what the instrument displays is either
A: depth under the lowest part of the keel, or
B: depth from the surface. If the instrument has NOT been so calibrated, It could be
C: depth from the position of the sensing transducer.

As a pro pilot, you'll understand the need to know - it's akin to the difference between QFE and QNH Altimeter Pressure Settings. One final point on this.... be aware that, when sailing into shallow waters such as when crossing a bar, when there are steepening seas AND deepening troughs, you need to allow for that 'deepening'. The seas not only heap UP, they also heap DOWN. Otherwise, you can run aground hard when you thought you should still have a good couple of feet clearance. That has caused more than a few serious incidents....

You can't readily see such deep troughs from seaward - especially when they're on the large side and when a strong current is flowing out of an entrance/bay/channel against sizeable seas rolling in. That's a good time to make a VHF call to the harbour office, and ask advice.

 

[William_H]

I can't imagine why your "instructor" expert did not wan to follow the chart and marked channel. Perhaps he was sleep deprived too.
There are all sorts of sailing instructors. I spent years teaching people to sail on my little boat 21ft. However that would not put me up as an expert on the conditions you experienced. Indeed the first job of an instructor is to know when to cancel due to bad weather. Being an instructor requires a whole suit of skills around people management and coping with people's mistakes while letting them learn the hard way by experience. Of course an instructor must be skilled at handling his boat but unless he is a specialist instructor in passage making I would not see him as being especially skilled in your situation. A bit like a flying instructor. Anyway well done on making the passage in horrible weather. My only comment is that I don't like to sail my little boat without both fore sail and main. I reduce both in size with stronger winds. With both sails it means i can always turn easily to beat against the wind at any time. ol'will

 

[rotrax]

I'm curious as to what qualifications your 'expert' claimed. Did he say he was an RYA YM Offshore? A little bit confusingly there is now a YM Coastal and I have from time to time encountered people who claim to be a yachtmaster on the basis of a shorebased certificate (i.e. theory only).

I've been sailing with one of them out of Torreveija in Spain. We headed West two hours on a day sail, then back to the East.

He became very confused when " The big flagpole I use to mark my course to the harbour entrance is not there! "

It was the mast of a Dutch flagged 70 foot aluminium ketch that had left just after us for Menorca........................

If your "Expert" had sailed across the Pacific and was not very good, are you sure it was not Brent Swain!

Remember, Ex is a has been, Spurt is a drip under pressure.

Blaster Bates, 1971.