sailing to france question

[Sailfree]

Quite the opposite, indeed, I once offered you £100[1] to get the details of these laws/rules from the RYA so everyone could see it. You declined.


[1] Paid to yourself of the RNLI as you wished.

Be interesting to get from the French the rules/penalties they are applying to British Boats. Effectively from the horses mouth you can argue over their legality later.

If with Al's help if I get that will you still offer the £100? or do I have to do another round to pass GO?

Happy for the £100 to be made out to "The Smile Train" or RNLI. In fact if you pay the £100 I undertake to double it.

 

[Searush]

Now I have no knowledge of this subject (just like any other subject!) but all laws are subject to interpretation by whoever is tasked to apply them.

Consequently, you may have as many "sets of rules" written down as you like, but the individual Douanerie (HM, or whoever) will simply trump your set with his own. Is that not how life really happens, whether it is parking in town, boarding a plane, sailing a boat or whatever?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Be interesting to get from the French the rules/penalties they are applying to British Boats. Effectively from the horses mouth you can argue over their legality later.

If with Al's help if I get that will you still offer the £100? or do I have to do another round to pass GO?

Happy for the £100 to be made out to "The Smile Train" or RNLI. In fact if you pay the £100 I undertake to double it.

Sounds promising. More than happy to offer you the same deal as I offered Tranona. I want to see the legislation you're talking about. Ie The Legislation that applies & has been applied to UK flagged vessels which cannot provide an original SSR when in France.

If you can find that and present it here I will be happy to pay £100 to any cause you wish.

Obviously the final decision on whether I pay up or not rests with me but I will not arse you around. If you can find it I will pay up with a smile on my face - £100 will be cheap to avoid these hopeless threads.

 

[Tranona]

Quite the opposite, indeed, I once offered you £100[1] to get the details of these laws/rules from the RYA so everyone could see it. You declined.


[1] Paid to yourself of the RNLI as you wished.

Why do you have to introduce this red herring.

It is YOU that disbelieves, not me, so why are you offering money to me?

All you have to do is to take up the kind RYA offer of a meeting to discuss your concerns. If they fail to convince you then you can report the outcome to anybody else that might be interested.

Why can you never do anything for yourself? Sounds like the actions of a very insecure person.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Why do you have to introduce this red herring.

I was directly answering your point. (See post 100).

It is YOU that disbelieves, not me, so why are you offering money to me?
All you have to do is to take up the kind RYA offer of a meeting to discuss your concerns. If they fail to convince you then you can report the outcome to anybody else that might be interested.

Two reasons:

1) An RYA member could ask the RYA to identify the legislation the French use to prosecute UK sailors with no original SSR today. Right now. Who knows when I will get my date to visit RYA headquarters? As Ma Toad says, “never put off 'till tomorrow what you can do today.”

2) A total of £200 to Sailfree's choice of charity.

Why can you never do anything for yourself? Sounds like the actions of a very insecure person.

Listing my short comings isn't really helping to get hold of the legislation.

 

[bbg]

Toad, as you know, I have in the past pointed you to the French authorities own website where they say that registration documents are required:

clicky

And legislation giving the douaniers the authority to board vessels

Art 62

and to conduct checks / controls

44 bis

So - the authorities themselves say they require the documents. There is legislation. Undoubtedly you will say this doesn't satisfy you, but only a fool would take the chance that the French authorities are wrong in their stated interpretation of their powers.?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

There is legislation.

So what possible harm could there be in reading it?

 

[bbg]

So what possible harm could there be in reading it?

By all means, go ahead. I gave you the links. Do the predictable thing now, and say it isn't specific enough.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

By all means, go ahead. I gave you the links.

Which of the three links identifies the legislation the French use to prosecute UK sailors with no original SSR?

 

[bbg]

Which of the three links identifies the legislation the French use to prosecute UK sailors with no original SSR?

Not one of those three links, but it is in the same legislation. Article 410 sets a fine of 300 to 3000 Euros.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

, but it is in the same legislation. Article 410 sets a fine of 300 to 3000 Euros.

Many thanks for revealing your source. Can you (or someone else) quote the clause in there that imposes a fine on foreign leisure boats that can't produce original registration documents? (I can't see it at first glance but I'm sure it must be there.)

 

[Tranona]

Two reasons:

1) An RYA member could ask the RYA to identify the legislation the French use to prosecute UK sailors with no original SSR today. Right now. Who knows when I will get my date to visit RYA headquarters? As Ma Toad says, “never put off 'till tomorrow what you can do today.”



Listing my short comings isn't really helping to get hold of the legislation.

It is now 3 years since you questioned the RYA advice and some months since you received your invitation.

And yet you still do NOTHING. Yet something else to add to your long list of shortcomings - a complete inabilty or unwillingness to do anything for yourself to resolve YOUR doubts. You seem all too willing to try and transfer responsibility to other people rather than taking it yourself.

Once again, if you have questions about advice from the RYA (or any other body) take them up directly with that body. If you are unclear about French legislation, seek advice from a qualified French legal source.

 

[bbg]

Toad, you misunderstand the way legislation works. I've pointed you to the legislation authorising the douaniers to board and search, and undertake controls of any vessel in French waters. The authorities say that includes the right to demand registration documents.
I've pointed you to the article that provides for a fine of 300-3000 euros for violations of the Code.
This legislation, like most legislation, is intentionally broad so as to cover many situations. There is no English law making it illegal for a cashier to take £20 out of the cash drawer every time she serves a customer - it would be covered by the more general prohibition against theft.
It is extremely unlikely that any nation would enact the specific legislation that you insist upon.
So, the legislation is not specific. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The only way for you to be sure that you are right in your interpretation would be to go over in your unregistered boat and provoke the douaniers to try to fine you, then challenge that in court.
As I said in my first post, the douaniers say that registration documents are required, and there is legislation that supports their assertion, but the general nature of the legislation means that it hasn't convinced everyone on this forum.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

There is no English law making it illegal for a cashier to take £20 out of the cash drawer every time she serves a customer

Theft Act 1968. Took me 10 seconds to find it.

So, the legislation is not specific. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I agree. If people have been legally offered fixed penalties they will have been convicted of something/b], the legislation will exist. ...and I'd like to have a look at the legislation they use.

The only way for you to be sure that you are right in your interpretation would be to go over in your unregistered boat and provoke the douaniers to try to fine you, then challenge that in court.

Is that how the RYA got their information?

 

[Tranona]

Is that how the RYA got their information?

Why don't you ask them? Unlikely not be based on information gained by an obscure amphibian on a forum offering £100 to any comers to find out.

 

[bbg]

Theft Act 1968. Took me 10 seconds to find it.

I agree. If people have been legally offered fixed penalties they will have been convicted of something/b], the legislation will exist. ...and I'd like to have a look at the legislation they use.

Is that how the RYA got their information?

Theft Act 1968 makes no mention of cashiers or £20 notes. Under your reasoning, taking £20 notes out of a cash drawer is not illegal.

I have no idea where the RYA got their information, but it isn't unreasonable for them to rely on the douaniers' stated position. It would be pretty bold for the RYA to say, "The douaniers claim that British boats are required to carry registration documents, but we disagree. Enjoy your trip to France, you don't need to register on SSR. If the douaniers ask for the documents tell them to ___ off."

Why isn't it good enough to say that the douaniers say registration documents are required, and anyone who acts otherwise does so at their own risk?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Theft Act 1968 makes no mention of cashiers or £20 notes. Under your reasoning, taking £20 notes out of a cash drawer is not illegal.

I'm asking what offence is committed when a British Boat visits France with no original registration document.

Has the offence they use has been presented and erroneously discounted on the grounds that each specific term was not mentioned? I can't see where.

Just to be on the safe side cut and paste the actual text that you think has been discounted so it's clear.

Why isn't it good enough to say that the douaniers say registration documents are required, and anyone who acts otherwise does so at their own risk?

Fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't actually help us get sight of the legislation they use to prosecute, which is what these threads are about.

You might as well say "Adventure sailing is great." now I've told you that you don't need to read Tillman.

 

[reginaldon]

See what you started AntC!

 

[Sailfree]

Guys I am happy to let this thread run & run but if one of you living in France could visit a local office and confirm:-

1) The legislation referred to in this thread is applicable to visiting British Flagged boats.

2) Do they apply it (even when the British skipper is nice and apologetic for not having the relevent original paperwork).

3) Do they apply a fixed fine or it the amount descretionery.

4) How frequently do they fine British boats.

If you can quote the office address visited, date, time hopefully it should convince Toad and either the answers confirm the RYA advice and I can ask Toad for a cheque or otherwise. If it ends up with charity contributions (including my £100) I will get a receipt and table it at the Scuttlebutt dinner.

Appreciate that this is a bit of an inconvenience (but you could be benefiting a charity by your actions) but if no one can manage it prior to September I will take Al up on his kind offer and ask the above questions myself.

Obviously only action similar to the above will convince Toad and the important thing about this thread is that to anyone inexperienced follow the RYA advice that the majority consider valid and there is one doubting Thomas that requires proof in a chapter and verse manner.

 

[al.carpenter]

may I?

I just spent one hour reading between the lines of all the pages of the Code in reference above and could not find anywhere a single word concerning a british yacht having to carry ssr reg.... all I found was a bleeding headache...
On a british yacht only british law applies.
Why don't you do like the Italians ??? I'll never understand this kind of attitude!