sailing to france question

[Tom Price]

Brittany is different . . .

[QUOTE=TSB240
"No ICC required or obtained by self - ICC and Cevni endorsement NOT required for some inland locked waters in France. Eg Vannes or above Arzal barrage and below Redon."

Because Breton waterways are not part of the national scheme. It also means that chomages (predicted maintenance closures) aren't listed on the VNF website.

 

[alan17]

ssr & France

On the last 4 occassions that I have been into Calais I was asked by the marina management for my SSR. I did have it so no prob. I think that they may have accepted just the SSR number but not sure.

Why risk possible hassle? If you have documentation that may be requested just take it with you.

You are probably just going for an enjoyable trip/experience so take all docs that you can and relax. Probably nothing will be demanded. Lets not stand on rights. Relax and enjoy even if that means producing forms etc that the "authorities" do not have the powers to insist upon.

 

[Tranona]

There is a long-standing convention on this forum that one does not criticize other members' spelling and grammar.

Could not agree more - having spent most of my working life deciphering all kinds of variations on the English language.

However in this case, incorrect spelling and lack of grammar/punctuation meant that the string of words could have two entirely different meanings. I happened to choose the one the author had not intended. Such are the limitations of the written word and the value of writing correctly. Communication is a two way process.

 

[al.carpenter]

agreed

Could not agree more - having spent most of my working life deciphering all kinds of variations on the English language.

However in this case, incorrect spelling and lack of grammar/punctuation meant that the string of words could have two entirely different meanings. I happened to choose the one the author had not intended. Such are the limitations of the written word and the value of writing correctly. Communication is a two way process.

but what do you do if you are a foreigner and english is not your language, if you are not that well educated, or dyslexic, or tired, or drunk, or lazy ? Does it mean you have nothing to write about or are less knowledgeable than a well written forumnite? Sometimes it is hard to follow a thread because of grammar and spelling but it does not bother me to reread a sentence a couple of times before getting the point...

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

However in this case, incorrect spelling and lack of grammar/punctuation meant that the string of words could have two entirely different meanings.

Fortunately one of the potential meanings involved an incongruous clause about weather, and could therefore easily be discounted as making no sense in the context. Equally fortunately the other made perfect sense in the context.

EDIT:

If the writer writes "weather" in relation to sailing conditions, not unreasonable to take it that he means what he says.

I'll let people judge for themselves: Here's the post in question.

 

[Tranona]

Fortunately one of the potential meanings involved an incongruous clause about weather, and could therefore easily be discounted as making no sense in the context. Equally fortunately the other made perfect sense in the context.

However the two together did not make any sense. If the writer writes "weather" in relation to sailing conditions, not unreasonable to take it that he means what he says.

Perils of writing as if it is a two way verbal interchange when in fact a statement is being made that can be misinterpreted.

It was just a string of words that had two meanings - the writer's meaning was lost in a wrong choice of words.

One of the joys of the English language is that the spoken word leads to the same sounds having different meanings depending on context - hence puns and double entendres. Correct spelling in the written word removes that confusion.

 

[LadyInBed]

Talking from my own experiences. I have owned and sailed british flagged yachts (two of them)

Undoubtedly it is your own experiences, why should I 'not believe what you state here'!

You may have flown a British flag on your yacht, but without some form of British registration, it is not a "British flagged Yacht", so have no claim to be under British law.

Regarding VHF registration and operator's licence

From what you say, it sounds like it is still on the 'To Do' list of the French Government, which does not mean that British OFCOM requirements will change, though if you push a pig off a cliff, it could be said that it flew for a short while

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You may have flown a British flag on your yacht, but without some form of British registration, it is not a "British flagged Yacht", so have no claim to be under British law.

It's the exact opposite. If he's British resident and he owns the boat and it's not registered elsewhere then the boat is a British Flagged Boat. He can't escape from that - it's British even if he didn't want it to be.

It really couldn't be any clearer:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/1

So the question is, what is the French approach. Do they:

a) Grant non-registered non-French vessels some kind of honorary French status (and then prosecute for all the French laws they don't & can't comply with). This seems a little far fetched and I'm sure there would be evidence for it if it were true.

b) Have a specific law requiring visiting vessels to carry registration docs. Well there's no compelling evidence for this and I'm sure there would be if it were true.

c) Simply respect the home nation's definition of Vessel Nationality.

Right now C seems most plausible to me. Consistent with what is seen on the ground. Good for their tourist industry. Easy to Police - because it requires no Policing. If C is true it also explains why nobody can find any reliable accounts of named boats who've been prosecuted or any sign of the legislation and the amount of the fixed penalty.

However, I could be wrong in that assumption.

Whatever the truth of the matter, if this issue matters to the OP he should do his own research and not take any of our guesses as gospel.

 

[Tranona]

I'll let people judge for themselves: Here's the post in question.

How gracious of you. At least one other has seen it in the way that I saw it.

I guess the rest couldn't give a toss as with either meaning it adds little to a rather sterile debate.

The only difference is that if you take the meaning I did then it is not unreasonable to ask why the author thinks an ICC is required for "offshore sailing" and what has the weather got to do with it.

But as that was not what he was trying to say - sounds like a "storm in a teacup" to me.

 

[Dockhead]

So the question is, what is the French approach. Do they:

a) Grant non-registered non-French vessels some kind of honorary French status (and then prosecute for all the French laws they don't & can't comply with). This seems a little far fetched and I'm sure there would be evidence for it if it were true.

b) Have a specific law requiring visiting vessels to carry registration docs. Well there's no compelling evidence for this and I'm sure there would be if it were true.

c) Simply respect the home nation's definition of Vessel Nationality.

or, as in many continental, bureaucratized nations:

d) Decline to provide clear guidelines, thus leaving much up to the mood and whim of the particular inspector, who may be a perfectly nice guy or may be a vicious little Hitler, depending on your luck that day.


Keep in mind the awesome and often arbitrary power which petty bureaucrats have in continental societies like France.

Bearing all that in mind, I choose to have my own vessel Part I registered and keep an impeccable set of registration, insurance and VAT documents with me at all times, not to mention VHF station and operator's licenses, and a complete collection of fuel receipts. It's not that much trouble and saves one from all this pointless agonising.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

or, as in many continental, bureaucratized nations:

d) Decline to provide clear guidelines, thus leaving much up to the mood and whim of the particular inspector, who may be a perfectly nice guy or may be a vicious little Hitler, depending on your luck that day.

Well maybe but they've got to write something on the receipt.

Keep in mind the awesome and often arbitrary power which petty bureaucrats have in continental societies like France.

Well this is new information. The French Police can issue on the spot fines at will without any offence having been committed? What if people don't have the cash? Are there people in prison at the whim of local plod?

If this were true, and a rozzer wanted to fine you the SSR wouldn't help - wouldn't he just make up another reason to fine you?

 

[Dockhead]

Well this is new information. The French Police can issue on the spot fines at will without any offence having been committed? What if people don't have the cash? Are there people in prison at the whim of local plod?

If this were true, and a rozzer wanted to fine you the SSR wouldn't help - wouldn't he just make up another reason to fine you?

I see you have spent little time in the Romance-language speaking part of the Continent! And don't even think about the Greek- or Slavic-language speaking parts!

Oh yes they can, and oh yes they do! The best defence is a perfect set of documents and suitably ingratiating manner. And if you get a really bad one, even that won't help -- he'll find some reason to fine you and/or extract a bribe.

 

[robin_99]

Interesting what you say about the end of licensing for fixed or more than 5W sets or operator's licenses, where did this nugget come from?
I wonder if / when the RYA will propagate it.

You can read about it here (in French).
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/La-VHF-modalites-et-nouvelles.html
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/DGITM_VHF_dite_CRR_2p_web.pdf

The CRR (SRC) will no longer be required to operate a portable non-DSC VHF radio of less than 6 watts in French territorial waters. CRR still needed to operate in international waters. These changes are supposed to come into effect in early 2011.

Fixed radios still need to be licensed.

Best,
Robin

 

[Sailfree]

Oh yes they can, and oh yes they do!

Friend lives in Pontrieux. Moored his British registered boat in France. After a couple of years he was asked to pay the French Tax on boats.

Very questionable what a British Registered /flagged boat means once they stay in foreign waters for any period of time.

 

[Lucky Duck]

What about a Q flag? Is it still needed?.

Only if you are coming from outside the EU. The Channel Islands fit this description but I'm not sure just how much this requirement is observed in practice.

 

[Tranona]

Ignoring the legality or otherwise of the penalty, I can tell you exactly what they do as in my daughter's experience less than 100miles into her first drive to the South of France. Caught speeding just outside Alencon. Pleaded no money. Passport and licence confiscated and given directions to the hole in the wall. 900 francs later, documents returned (with receipt) and wished bon voyage!

As ever Toad, you make the fatal error of believing that authorities and officials in other countries act in the way you imagine they ought to (according to your apparent limited world view) rather than the way they act in practice.

You are therefore condemned forever to live in ignorance, despite the efforts of many to explain reality to you.

 

[al.carpenter]

in theory

You can read about it here (in French).
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/La-VHF-modalites-et-nouvelles.html
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/DGITM_VHF_dite_CRR_2p_web.pdf

The CRR (SRC) will no longer be required to operate a portable non-DSC VHF radio of less than 6 watts in French territorial waters. CRR still needed to operate in international waters. These changes are supposed to come into effect in early 2011.

Fixed radios still need to be licensed.

Best,
Robin

that's right and I will add that since 2003, you are not supposed to pay your license... as per following written letter by an MP and the answer (published in the Senate Official Journal


quote
Question écrite n° 03181 de M. Alain Gérard (Finistère - UMP)
publiée dans le JO Sénat du 17/10/2002 - page 2353

M. Alain Gérard appelle l'attention de M. le ministre de l'économie, des finances et de l'industrie sur la demande, formulée à de nombreuses reprises par la Fédération nationale des pêcheurs plaisanciers et sportifs de France, d'obtenir la suppression de la redevance et la diminution significative de la taxe d'examen VHF. En effet, il apparaît certain que cet instrument de communication est le seul moyen véritablement fiable de garantir la sécurité en mer. A ce jour, aucune réponse satisfaisante n'a été apportée aux intéressés sur ce dossier qui concerne directement la vie des usagers de la mer. C'est pourquoi il lui demande de bien vouloir prendre cette demande en considération et lui faire connaître ses intentions à ce sujet.


Réponse du Ministre de l'économie, des finances et de l'industrie
publiée dans le JO Sénat du 04/12/2003 - page 3509

Le comité interministériel de la mer (CIM) du 29 avril 2003 a évoqué notamment les questions relatives à la redevance liée à la licence VHF et à l'organisation des examens du certificat restreint de radiotéléphoniste. A la suite du CIM, le secrétariat général de la mer a demandé aux ministères et administrations concernés de faire des propositions sur ces deux sujets afin de promouvoir l'utilisation de la VHF. Dans l'attente des résultats de ces travaux, les projets de textes réglementaires en la matière ont été suspendus. Dans ces conditions, la réponse aux interrogations évoquées par le parlementaire sera apportée dans le cadre de la réflexion en cours sous l'égide du secrétariat général de la mer.
Taxe VHF, donc pas supprimée mais suspendue....
Mais dans les propositions du CSNPSN du 31/03/2004 et dans le " Relevés de décisions du CSNPSN" il est demandé l'abrogation définitive de la taxe VHF.

unquote


meaning, "even if the law says you have to have one, do not have one because nobody will ask for one"...
This is what, (in response to the post above about french and latin administrations...) makes this country so wonderful to live in. There is ONLY ONE law in France... do not get caught!!! and we love it... it makes life so much more fun.


note that it took the minister 14 months to answer that question... typical... Wouharff...
just like my email to Customs about SSR docs months ago... all I got back was a docket sayaing thank-you, we acknoledge receit of your mail... may be in a couple of years will we get the answer.

 

[Tranona]

Friend lives in Pontrieux. Moored his British registered boat in France. After a couple of years he was asked to pay the French Tax on boats.

Very questionable what a British Registered /flagged boat means once they stay in foreign waters for any period of time.

Thats quite normal if he lives in France. Just paying the same annual tax as a French boat. Nothing to do with whether it is British registered or not. Keeping the British registration means that it does not need to comply with the much more restrictive registration requirements in respect of equipment and usage.

 

[Sailfree]

Caught speeding just outside Alencon. Pleaded no money. Passport and licence confiscated and given directions to the hole in the wall. 900 francs later, documents returned (with receipt) and wished bon voyage!

Thanks for info. As a person that often drives in France - out of curiosity 900francs or Euros? How much over the speed limit was she.

A friend of mine that lived and worked in Holland remarked that the Dutch always think the French Police have the hots for Dutch drivers. I assume the French Police don't mind they just got targets to meet!!

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for info. As a person that often drives in France - out of curiosity 900francs or Euros? How much over the speed limit was she.

Francs - was a few years ago, on her way to Montpellier for university in her Christmas present - an 1100cc Escort. Sunday morning radar gun on the approaches to a village on the RN. Nice little earner. Survived 3 more years in France without any more trouble.

She really was unlucky - I have driven thousands of miles all over France and never been stopped.