sailing to france question

[Dockhead]

Toad, you misunderstand the way legislation works. I've pointed you to the legislation authorising the douaniers to board and search, and undertake controls of any vessel in French waters. The authorities say that includes the right to demand registration documents.
I've pointed you to the article that provides for a fine of 300-3000 euros for violations of the Code.
This legislation, like most legislation, is intentionally broad so as to cover many situations. There is no English law making it illegal for a cashier to take £20 out of the cash drawer every time she serves a customer - it would be covered by the more general prohibition against theft.
It is extremely unlikely that any nation would enact the specific legislation that you insist upon.
So, the legislation is not specific. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The only way for you to be sure that you are right in your interpretation would be to go over in your unregistered boat and provoke the douaniers to try to fine you, then challenge that in court.
As I said in my first post, the douaniers say that registration documents are required, and there is legislation that supports their assertion, but the general nature of the legislation means that it hasn't convinced everyone on this forum.

From a legal point of view -- and I wasted part of my youth teaching in law schools -- this is correct. The law says every boat -- and specifically mentions foreign boats -- must have a certification of registration or title document on board. Period. It may or may not contradict international law, but it is very clear, and it is the law of the land in Frogland. Every boat.

I would not particularly like to spend the sailing season (or a few seasons) trying to prove to a French court that a French law contradicts international law. It would be a few million times easier to get the bit of paper in the first place.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Guys I am happy to let this thread run & run but if one of you living in France could visit a local office and confirm:-

1) The legislation referred to in this thread is applicable to visiting British Flagged boats.

2) Do they apply it (even when the British skipper is nice and apologetic for not having the relevent original paperwork).

3) Do they apply a fixed fine or it the amount descretionery.

4) How frequently do they fine British boats.

If you can quote the office address visited, date, time hopefully it should convince Toad and either the answers confirm the RYA advice and I can ask Toad for a cheque or otherwise. If it ends up with charity contributions (including my £100) I will get a receipt and table it at the Scuttlebutt dinner.

Appreciate that this is a bit of an inconvenience so if no one can manage it prior to September I will take Al up on his kind offer and ask the above questions myself.

Whoa! I agree it would be a good idea for someone to visit a local office (as Al did here: [1]) However in I offered to pay you £100 to identify the offence via the RYA because you are a current member and can ask wheras I cannot. I did NOT offer you £100 to ask people on YBW to talk to French customs which I could do for myself and has already been done at no cost to me and totally failed to identify the offence[1].

Having said that, if someone else can identify the legislation (meeting the criteria I laid out in post 103) within the next 7 days I will extend the offer I made in post 103 to them as well as Sailfree.

Needless to say I will stand by my offer to Sailfree in 103.

So for 7 days, first one to identify the offence committed when a British Flagged Vessel is unable to produce an original SSR when visiting France gets the ton.

£100 is a bargain to put this one to bed once and for all.

[1] Post here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2672504&postcount=19
Thread here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251517[/QUOTE]

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The law says every boat -- and specifically mentions foreign boats -- must have a certification of registration or title document on board. Period. It may or may not contradict international law, but it is very clear, and it is the law of the land in Frogland. Every boat.

So you don't need an original registration document at all - a title document is fine. No idea if that's true but it sounds plausible since a title document and proof of address would prove the vessel is British Flagged beyond doubt.

...be interesting to see if that turns out to be correct.

I would not particularly like to spend the sailing season (or a few seasons) trying to prove to a French court that a French law contradicts international law.

Why would you need to? At least one persons says the fine is £9. Just pay the fine. I suspect that only people who lose their docs, charter boats and boats from nations that do not have registration for small boats would be without registration certificate anyway. No need to go to court at all.

 

[al.carpenter]

there is no convincing Toad...

Toad is right, 100% right. If I proposed to visit officials in Cherbourg it is just to confirm what I have said months ago. I have been there, asked hundred of times all these questions and unless I really am stupid (not a Mensa member but always been told I was well above average intelligent...??!!) NO ONE can be fined for not providing a SSR document... Point. I will add 100€ to the charity kitty if proven wrong to today's date. Al.

 

[Wunja]

Just for some variety, I had a look on the website of the ANWB. (Dutch equivalent of the AA/RAC, but also look after the interests and qualifications of Dutch cruising sailors).

They say for France:

• an ICC is required;
• an ICP (equiv of SSR) has not been needed since 1/1/2006;
• insurance is not required, but recommended,
• the VAT receipt is required.
• They also say (and I don't think this has been mentioned) that a crew list is needed on entering a sea port.

No mention of VHF ships licence or user certificate

Link

 

[al.carpenter]

well

italiens don't need ssr (or equivalent), dutch don't need ssr. Why should brits have to have one? Could any spanish, german, portugese or whatever forumnite check on their respective "cruisers association" what they think of this? That's fun detective work. 007 what are you doing? In bed with a russian bird I bet....

 

[Tranona]

However in I offered to pay you £100 to identify the offence via the RYA because you are a current member and can ask wheras I cannot. I did NOT offer you £100 to ask people on YBW to talk to French customs which I could do for myself and has already been done at no cost to me and totally failed to identify the offence[1].

£100 is a bargain to put this one to bed once and for all.

[/QUOTE]

Coming out now! Your beef is with the RYA. Why are you offering £100 to someone to do what you can do for a fraction of that - by signing up to be a member. And if you behave yourself for the required number of years you can become a well informed Gold Personal member.

You see, I think you have some dark secret you are hiding. Perhaps you are a character in a Dan Brown story searching for the Holy Grail. Well, you are now in sight courtesy of bbg. Normally at this stage in the story, the pursuers are either blinded by the brilliance of their discovery, condemned to eternal damnation- or the ground opens up and swallos them.

You have 24 hours to choose your ending.

 

[vyv_cox]

Just for some variety, I had a look on the website of the ANWB. (Dutch equivalent of the AA/RAC, but also look after the interests and qualifications of Dutch cruising sailors).

They say for France:

• an ICC is required;
• an ICP (equiv of SSR) has not been needed since 1/1/2006;
• insurance is not required, but recommended,
• the VAT receipt is required.
• They also say (and I don't think this has been mentioned) that a crew list is needed on entering a sea port.

No mention of VHF ships licence or user certificate

Link

I'm not getting involved in the SSR debate but I'm pretty certain the ANWB are incorrect about the ICC, at least so far as British yachtsmen are concerned. We don't need an ICC for French waters. I also believe that we don't need a crew list. Is this not a Schengen requirement? UK is not a signatory.

There is also considerable debate about VAT receipts, but that is yet another argument.

 

[Stork_III]

I'm not getting involved in the SSR debate but I'm pretty certain the ANWB are incorrect about the ICC, at least so far as British yachtsmen are concerned. We don't need an ICC for French waters. I also believe that we don't need a crew list. Is this not a Schengen requirement? UK is not a signatory.

There is also considerable debate about VAT receipts, but that is yet another argument.

Schengen Crew list is certainly required by UK boat into any Schengen Area country.

 

[bbg]

italiens don't need ssr (or equivalent), dutch don't need ssr. Why should brits have to have one? Could any spanish, german, portugese or whatever forumnite check on their respective "cruisers association" what they think of this? That's fun detective work. 007 what are you doing? In bed with a russian bird I bet....

Good idea. What various national cruising associations say about the French requirements is much more persuasive than what the French authorities say themselves.
Or you do believe the same thing as toad - that the French are telling porkies on their website about the real extent of their powers?

 

[al.carpenter]

Good idea. What various national cruising associations say about the French requirements is much more persuasive than what the French authorities say themselves.
Or you do believe the same thing as toad - that the French are telling porkies on their website about the real extent of their powers?[/QU

you really don't get it... You do NOT have to be SSR registered to enter/sail french waters. Please, since you seem to master Voltaire's language, call Cherbourg Gendarmerie Maritime (Yellow Pages) and ask to speak to the officer in charge of the Brigade... You are thinking of foreign commercial vessels trading / using french waters but it has nothing to do with pleasure crafts. They cannot ask for something that your own country does not require by law.........A tanker has to be registered, even in its home waters, not a pleasure craft. That they like seeing a ssr does not mean you have to have one. How come I have been checked many times over 30 years while never having one to produce and never been fined? How come the italians or dutch do not have to have one and the brits should?????????

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Why are you offering £100 to someone to do what you can do for a fraction of that - by signing up to be a member.

Isn't it obvious?

1) Sailfree is getting the £100 to identify the legislation. RYA membership might allow me to identify the legislation but it might not. I just want to see the law says. I don't want to gamble.

2) Sailfree is doubling the cash and giving it to charity which has to be a good thing.

3) It's probably quicker for an existing member simply to bang off a quick e-mail than it would be for me to join and then bang off my 30 word e-mail.

Incidently here's the e-mail address:
e-mail: legal@rya.org.uk.
Tel: 0844 5569519

 

[bbg]

Good idea. What various national cruising associations say about the French requirements is much more persuasive than what the French authorities say themselves.
Or you do believe the same thing as toad - that the French are telling porkies on their website about the real extent of their powers?[/QU

you really don't get it... You do NOT have to be SSR registered to enter/sail french waters. Please, since you seem to master Voltaire's language, call Cherbourg Gendarmerie Maritime (Yellow Pages) and ask to speak to the officer in charge of the Brigade... You are thinking of foreign commercial vessels trading / using french waters but it has nothing to do with pleasure crafts. They cannot ask for something that your own country does not require by law.........A tanker has to be registered, even in its home waters, not a pleasure craft. That they like seeing a ssr does not mean you have to have one. How come I have been checked many times over 30 years while never having one to produce and never been fined? How come the italians or dutch do not have to have one and the brits should?????????

I think I do get it. I place more faith in what the French authorities put down in writing than what some random individual officer might tell me.
I am thinking about pleasure craft, not commercial vessels. The link I gave you said this:

Navigation de plaisance et douane : croisière à l'étrangerMis à jour le 25.03.2010 par Direction de l'information légale et administrative
Principe
Aucune formalité n'est exigée dès lors que vous ne transportez pas des marchandises soumises à des dispositions particulières (armes, objets d'art, animaux, produits prohibés..).
Si vous transportez des sommes, titres ou valeurs (espèces, chèques ou devises..) supérieures à 10.000 € , vous devez faire une déclaration écrite auprès de la douane.
Obligations du plaisancier
Sur mer, les plaisanciers sont soumis aux mêmes règles que les voyageurs passant par les frontières terrestres, ils doivent toujours conserver à bord l'acte de francisation (ou le passeport et le titre de nationalité pour les navires battant pavillon étranger) ainsi que tous les documents nécessaires à un éventuel contrôle en mer ou dans un port.

The bold portions read:
"Pleasure Craft"
"Obligations of Pleasure Craft"
"At sea, pleasure craft ... must always keep on board their acte de francisation[French registration documents] (or the passport and registration documents for vessels flying a foreign flag)"

Could you give us the circumstances of these various checks over 30 years? When was the most recent? One of your earlier posts says that you were controlled by the douaniers tens of times, sometimes when you were sailing a British flagged vessel (without registration documents) while a resident of France. The explanation is that, for whatever reason, you were lucky. And unlucky, I should add. Being boarded seems to be a rare event for others, but you seem to manage it nearly once a year.
In my youth I was stopped several times for various traffic offences, including twice for driving at night without headlights on. On neither occasion did I receive a fine. But I don't conclude from that, that the police did not have the authority to issue a fine. I was lucky.
Don't confuse absence of evidence with evidence of absence. Just because you weren't fined doesn't mean it can't happen.
As the links I have provided show, the douaniers themselves think they have the right to ask for documents, and the code clearly sets out a fine of €300-€3000 for non-compliance with the code.
Maybe you're correct and the French websites are wrong. But I personally wouldn't take the chance.

 

[Tranona]

Isn't it obvious?



3) It's probably quicker for an existing member simply to bang off a quick e-mail than it would be for me to join and then bang off my 30 word e-mail.

Incidently here's the e-mail address:
e-mail: legal@rya.org.uk.
Tel: 0844 5569519

No, it is not obvious. You have had at least 3 years to join. You have had a personal inviatation for a face to face meeting.

Why have you not done it yourself? What are you afraid of? Do you think they are going to tell a member something different from what they would tell you.

And what is all this "banging off quick emails"? I thought the proper term was "making enquiries". There is plenty of room in the real world for you. You don't have to create your own.

 

[bbg]

I don't want to gamble.

If you don't want to gamble, you could simply take the no-risk approach of paying £25 and registering under the SSR.
If you don't want to gamble, you could simply accept at face value the website which says that the French authorities themselves say that registration documents are required.

But I guess it is more fun to assume that the authorities are lying about their powers in an official government website.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

As the links I have provided show, the douaniers themselves think they have the right to ask for documents, and the code clearly sets out a fine of €300-€3000 for non-compliance with the code.

Since you've mentioned it a second time can you cut and paste the bit of the code that requires Foreign visiting boats to be registered. It doesn't matter if it doesn't mention specific words [1] (like your theft example).

I just want to see the bit that is used to prosecute UK sailors.

[1] Earlier you seemed to think that something had been discounted on the basis that it wasn't specific enough. I can't see where anyone had done that.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

If you don't want to gamble, you could simply take the no-risk approach of paying £25 and registering under the SSR.
If you don't want to gamble, you could simply accept at face value the website which says that the French authorities themselves say that registration documents are required.

But I guess it is more fun to assume that the authorities are lying about their powers in an official government website.

I can't relate any of that to anything I've said???

 

[Sailfree]

Guys I am surprised by Al's comments and can better understand Toads insistance of proof. He does have a unique way of goading a response. I have never seen Al's previous post going back a fair way and wish Toad had bought it to our attention earlier.

When I get a moment I will raise these issues with the RYA as otherwise it cast doubts on the quality of their advice.

I will report back when I get more info but in the meantime I will follow the RYA advice on the basis of better more paperwork than inadequate paperwork.

 

[bbg]

When I get a moment I will raise these issues with the RYA as otherwise it cast doubts on the quality of their advice.

Just out of curiosity, why would you place more faith in what the RYA says, compared with what the French authorities themselves say. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

 

[Sailfree]

Just out of curiosity, why would you place more faith in what the RYA says, compared with what the French authorities themselves say. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

No I will be trying to get them to both give the same advice.

If British flagged boat have been fined I would hope the RYA know the circumstances. I certainly was there when a CI skipper got fined but I think further clarity is needed.