sailing to france question

[westernman]

British boats in France do not need to produce registration documents.

French boats do. (and can be fined and are fined if they do not have the original registration document on board).

British boats need to prove they are not French so as not to be subject to French regulations.

An original registration document is the official document which will prove that the boat is not French. However, individual douaniers etc might use some discretion and actually use some common sense (and there seems to be good precedent to indicate that they do).

In SE France, the nearby Italian clubs negotiated a formal agreement that Italian insurance documents would be sufficient documentation for small craft that they are Italian and not French after many boats had been fined. Small Italian craft do not need any registration documents either.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Toads insistance of proof.

You call it "Insistence of proof" I call it "Checking Facts".

Toad had bought it to our attention earlier.

I did:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261297

It's irrelevant though. If they haven't heard of the offence you're describing, they can't possibly help to identify it. So it's a dead end in the search for the offence you're talking about.

When I get a moment I will raise these issues with the RYA

There's £300 to charity riding on this. Don't hesitate, call/mail them right ASAP:

e-mail: legal@rya.org.uk.
Tel: 0844 5569519

Some time ago you said this offence was listed in the Bloc Marine - why not save the e-mail and just look it up in there?

 

[Tranona]

Some time ago you said this offence was listed in the Bloc Marine - why not save the e-mail and just look it up in there?

If it all so easy why don't you look it up yourself instead of asking somebody else to do it for you?

BTW your 24 hours to choose your ending is nearly up.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

British boats need to prove they are not French so as not to be subject to French regulations..

Once a squabble goes circular you can just link back to previous threads:

See post: 108 (and the back and forth that followed that):
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251015&page=4


See post: 133:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251517&page=5

 

[Sailfree]

There's £300 to charity riding on this. Don't hesitate, call/mail them right ASAP:

e-mail: legal@rya.org.uk.

Done I await their reply.

Where did the extra £100 come from I remember 100 Euros being mentioned.

 

[Stork_III]

Done I await their reply.

Where did the extra £100 come from I remember 100 Euros being mentioned.

It will be 1 euro/gbp by the time this is sorted.

 

[Dockhead]

Since you've mentioned it a second time can you cut and paste the bit of the code that requires Foreign visiting boats to be registered. It doesn't matter if it doesn't mention specific words [1] (like your theft example).

I just want to see the bit that is used to prosecute UK sailors.

[1] Earlier you seemed to think that something had been discounted on the basis that it wasn't specific enough. I can't see where anyone had done that.

The phrase "LOL" does not quite convey the extent that I am actually rolling on the floor laughing at this. Well done.

 

[AntC]

See what you started AntC!

Ha, well I am going to enjoy my trip to France. With my ssr registration, and all my original certification but no icc. Thankyou all for your input and sorry for opening a rather amusing can of worms.
Do some work people

Happy sailing

 

[Sybarite]

<< Ignoring the legality or otherwise of the penalty, I can tell you exactly what they do as in my daughter's experience less than 100miles into her first drive to the South of France. Caught speeding just outside Alencon. Pleaded no money. Passport and licence confiscated and given directions to the hole in the wall. 900 francs later, documents returned (with receipt) and wished bon voyage!>>


I was threatened with exactly the same thing in England.

 

[PaulJS]

Very amusing

Delighted to see that the great british traditions of "nit-picking" and "refusing to see the other blokes point of view" are alive and well!

I think that the general consensus of "better too much paperwork than too little" is probably the safest way to go.

I really must get back to work...

Bon voyage to the OP.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I think that the general consensus of "better too much paperwork than too little" is probably the safest way to go.

AFAIK nobody has ever suggested otherwise.

For me it's still interesting to find out what offence has been committed by boats that have visited France with no original SSR doc available.

As you say, Bon voyage to the OP. I'm sure he'll have a great time.

 

[Sailfree]

Update

No reply from RYA yet!

Up to now I thought that Toad was being difficult but I do think the RYA advice ought to be accurate and Al now passes serious doubt as to this.

 

[Sybarite]

This is a multilateral agreement with all EU countries plus Switzerland.

 

[Sybarite]

Don't agree. The only definitive answer will come from the Douane headquarters. I've written to them.

 

[Sybarite]

Extracts of correspondance with La Douane

Direction Générale des Douanes
Section Plaisance
11, rue des Deux Communes
93558 Montreuil Cedex

Triel, le 1er février 2011

Messieurs,

Justification de Pavillon : Bateaux Britanniques

Depuis un certain temps il y a beaucoup de discussion (et confusion) sur le principal forum nautique britannique concernant les papiers à produire lors d’un contrôle de Douane en eaux françaises.

Les participants évoquent de traitements différents selon les Douaniers ainsi que l’imposition d’amendes que certains participants - journalistes même – considèrent totalement injustifiés à la lecture des textes et aléatoire dans leur application.

Effectivement une réponse qui a déjà été fournie directement à un autre membre de ce forum ne semblerait pas résoudre la question car la thèse d’ouverture commençait avec une inexactitude concernant la législation britannique et les textes cités ne couvraient donc pas la situation précise, à savoir l’absence pure et simple de documents.

D’ailleurs j’ai reçu moi-même de réponses apparemment contradictoires lors de mes contacts avec vos services aux Salons Nautiques.

Je reproduis ci-après les textes de mes correspondances précédentes. Par téléphone aujourd'hui, l’IDS se dit incompétent pour donner davantage d’information et me recommande en conséquence de m’adresser directement chez vous. Je vous assure que cette situation est suivie de près par les membres du forum et vient d'être relancée de nouveau pour une enième fois.

Je ne manquerai pas de porter votre réponse à la connaissance des membres.

Je vous prie d'agréer, Messieurs, l'expression de mes sentiments distingués.

John Tynan

(Reply given to Toad ofToadHall and my mail of 23/12/2010)

DIRECTION GÉNÉRALE DES DOUANES ET DROITS INDIRECTS
INFOS DOUANE SERVICE
Site Internet : www.douane.gouv.fr
Tél : 0 811 20 44 44 (coût d'un appel local depuis un poste fixe)
Hors métropole ou depuis l'étranger 33 1 72 40 78 50
Mèl : ids@douane.finances.gouv.fr
Dossier suivi par : XXXX XXXXXXX

Monsieur,

En réponse à votre mel , je vous informe que selon la législation en GRANDE-BRETAGNE, les navires de plaisance d'une longueur hors tout inférieure à 24m, et appartenant à des personnes physiques, doivent être pourvus d'un document dénommé "CERTIFICATE OF BRITISH REGISTRY".

En cas de contrôle, l'absence de ce document constitue une infraction prévue par l'article 427-3 du code des douanes françaises et réprimé par l'art 414 de ce même code. , vous risquez une amende douanière.

Messieurs,

Je me réfère à la réponse citée ci-dessus qui a été donné à un participant d’un forum « bateaux » en Angleterre. En tant que résident français, je souhaitais vous transmettre de la part de certains membres quelques soucis qui restent suite à cette réponse.

Je me permets donc de vous poser quelques questions supplémentaires :

<< selon la législation en GRANDE-BRETAGNE, les navires de plaisance d'une longueur hors tout inférieure à 24m, et appartenant à des personnes physiques, doivent être pourvus d'un document dénommé "CERTIFICATE OF BRITISH REGISTRY".>>

OBSERVATION :

En fait la législation britannique n’impose aucun « Certificate of British Registry »

Quid de la liberté de mouvement de biens et de personnes ?

En lisant le texte référencé dans la réponse, à savoir l’article 427-3 de la Code des Douanes, :

<< 3° la francisation frauduleuse des navires ainsi que le fait pour les navires de se trouver, sous couvert de documents de bord ou de titre de nationalité faux, falsifiés ou inapplicables, dans les eaux territoriales, rades et ports, s'il s'agit de navires de tout tonnage, et, dans la zone maritime du rayon des douanes, s'il s'agit de navires de moins de 100 tonneaux de jauge nette ou de 500 tonneaux de jauge brute ; > >

On parle bien de titres de nationalité faux, falsifiés, ou inapplicables mais nullement de l’absence pure et simple de tels titres de nationalité.

Ce serait utile à la compréhension si vous pouviez définir le texte ou l’interprétation du texte qui couvrirait une telle situation ainsi que le barème des amendes en cas d’infraction.

A titre personnel j’ai posé une question semblable à votre représentant au salon nautique et il m’a répondu que la seule chose qui intéressait la Douane était la justification du pavillon. Or, il y quelques années quand j’ai posé la même question à un autre représentant sur votre stand il m’a répondu qu’il y avait pas mal de confusion sur ce sujet parmi les douaniers eux-mêmes et, selon lui, la Douane ne pouvait rien exiger si le pays d’origine ne l’obligeait pas à ses ressortissants. D’où une apparente contradiction, au moins dans mon esprit.

Je vous serais donc gré de bien vouloir m’éclaircir afin que je puisse transmettre une réponse détaillée aux membres du forum.

Veuillez croire, etc etc

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Don't agree. The only definitive answer will come from the Douane headquarters. I've written to them.

Doesn't really matter where the information comes from:

If the RYA/French Customs/French Police come back and say "Yes, British Yachts have been prosecuted for x offence." it will be a doddle to verify, & find out more about it.

If the RYA/French Customs/French Police come back and simply say they're not aware of any law then these threads will rumble on as usual...

Of course, the fact that nobody could either confirm or deny the 'counterfeit' legislation as being the legislation in question does prove something about all the people who claim first hand knowledge of the legislation.

 

[bbg]

If the RYA/French Customs/French Police come back and say "Yes, British Yachts have been prosecuted for x offence." it will be a doddle to verify, & find out more about it.

Yes, you wouldn't want to take their word for that. You'd need to track down the actual people who were fined, and obtain an affidavit sworn under oath attaching the receipts showing that they were actually fined, and did actually pay. And even that wouldn't prove that the douaniers had the right to issue the fine, just that they did.

The douainiers have answered the question of which provision they rely on. It is their position that British ships require registration documents. The only way to get the level of certainty that you seem to demand is to have a case tested in court, so until that happens you will still be able to say "there's no proof".

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The douainiers have answered the question of which provision they rely on.

Yet, according to post 110 they're wrong and it's 410, not 427.

Maybe French Customs have identified the correct legislation, or maybe the Brigade Maritime got it right. Or maybe the truth is something else. Either way, there's no harm in checking facts.

The only way to get the level of certainty that you seem to demand is to have a case tested in court,

Unless every foreign visitor ever caught in France without an original registration document [1] has been a) offered a fixed penalty alternative and b) is able and willing to accept it, then there must have been plenty of court cases.

[1] ...and by the time you take charter boats, and Danish people, and Italians, and people who lose their reg doc or bin them after a soaking into account there must have been thousands. (I think there are about six who post on here alone so it does happen a lot!)

 

[macd]

Delighted to see that the great british traditions of "nit-picking" and "refusing to see the other blokes point of view" are alive and well!

I think that the general consensus of "better too much paperwork than too little" is probably the safest way to go.

...to the latter part of which Toad replied: AFAIK nobody has ever suggested otherwise.

In the previous long and often heated thread on this same ubject, both Toad and his chief ally (sorry, name escapes me) maintained the same position: it‘s easiest simply to conform and carry the paperwork. To me, whilst I'm certainly inclined to his general view of the issue, that’s hypocritical (with a very small ‘h’ and no malice intended).

Nit-picking such issues are not. We are all subject to increasing regulation without the addition of quixotic and unfounded interpretations of existing rules. Please note that I am taking no position on whether there is or isn’t a French regulation requiring UK-flagged vessels to have registration documents. I simply don’t know the answer to that. My position, if I’ve read this and other threads correctly, is that Toad and others believe that there is probably no such regulation.

To then commend carrying as much paperwork as possible ducks the issue. Allowing authority to enforce rules that don’t exist is not in Toad’s interest nor, I’d suggest, that of most of us. We don’t merely have an entitlement to require that rules are enforced correctly, we have a duty to insist that this is so. Voltaire was mentioned a page or so ago; he’d have understood the point. Surely anything else is complacent short-term self-interest.

I repeat, Toad, that I’m not having a dig at you. If my reading of you is right, I think you’ll understand that.

P.S. To the original poster: you must be wondering what the hell you started!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

We are all subject to increasing regulation without the addition of quixotic and unfounded interpretations of existing rules.

It's an interesting question. Supposing it's perfectly legal to visit France with no original SSR doc. Supposing as a convention we all agree that we still shouldn't visit France without original SSR docs?

Are we then saying that the Danish or other nationalities, who don't register their small boats shouldn't visit France? Are we saying that people who Charter boats with no original SSR docs shouldn't visit France? What about British Nationals who can't be part one registered for some reason but aren't UK resident any more so can't get on the SSR? There must be countless liveaboards in exactly that position, should France be off limits to them?

Maybe fodder for a future debate if we ever resolve the legal position.

if I’ve read this and other threads correctly, is that Toad and others believe that there is probably no such regulation.

Like you I just don't know if this regulation exists or not. I don't recall the offence being introduced, and nobody is able to say what the offence is so I'd go with 'probably' no such regulation, but that's nothing more than a guess.

I repeat, Toad, that I’m not having a dig at you. If my reading of you is right, I think you’ll understand that.

100pc understand. Glad to hear your viewpoint.